New Elizabeth Line trains: What would they be used for?

[DynamicSpirit]

It's been widely reported that work is starting to build 10 new Elizabeth line trains. There's a thread here discussion the actual construction and stock. I'm starting this thread to ask/discuss: Does anyone know (or can anyone make educated guesses) what the new trains would be used for? What impact could they have on the timetable?

I would assume that, once Old Oak Common opens, there's likely to be a requirement for all services that currently terminate at Paddington from the East to run through to OOC - but I'm not sure if allowance was already made for that in the existing stock allocation, and even if it wasn't, I can't see how that would require 10 additional trains. So I would assume some frequency increase is being planned, which wasn't allowed for when the current fleet was ordered?

 

[Horizon22]

It's been widely reported that work is starting to build 10 new Elizabeth line trains. There's a thread here discussion the actual construction and stock. I'm starting this thread to ask/discuss: Does anyone know (or can anyone make educated guesses) what the new trains would be used for? What impact could they have on the timetable?

On a daily basis, 65 of the 70 trains are diagrammed. So I imagine a few are for resilience, some of a potential uptick of services - it's been rumoured 26-28tph through the core will be coming in the next few years - and also the extension of services towards OOC.

I would assume that, once Old Oak Common opens, there's likely to be a requirement for all services that currently terminate at Paddington from the East to run through to OOC - but I'm not sure if allowance was already made for that in the existing stock allocation

It wasn't. HS2 was pretty reliably planned to terminate at Euston when they were ordered, whereas OOC is now presumed to be the terminus for longer.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

On a daily basis, 65 of the 70 trains are diagrammed. So I imagine a few are for resilience, some of a potential uptick of services - it's been rumoured 26-28tph through the core will be coming in the next few years - and also the extension of services towards OOC.

That compares with - at the moment I believe 16tph off-peak, 24tph peak. So presumably 26-28 is only peak. Doing a quick estimate, if the new services will run Abbey Wood-OOC (which seems to be the obvious way to get them in just the core), then that's probably a 35-ish minute journey time, so say an 80 minute round trip. That would imply you'd need 4 trains to give an extra 3tph. So I'd guess 10 trains should be enough to provide an extra 2-4tph in the core, plus extending Paddington terminators to Abbey Wood, plus a couple of extra spares.

It wasn't. HS2 was pretty reliably planned to terminate at Euston when they were ordered, whereas OOC is now presumed to be the terminus for longer.

That seems a bit short-sighted considering the Elizabeth line doesn't go to Euston - so even when HS2 was planned to terminate at Euston, it would be a reasonable expectation that anyone already on the Elizabeth line who wanted HS2 would want to go to OOC to pick it up anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

That seems a bit short-sighted considering the Elizabeth line doesn't go to Euston - so even when HS2 was planned to terminate at Euston, it would be a reasonable expectation that anyone already on the Elizabeth line who wanted HS2 would want to go to OOC to pick it up anyway.

It was expected that OOC and Euston would share the load. There may also have been an expectation that Crossrail 2 might be built as well shortly after HS2 opened.

The number of 345s was set at 65 (later increased to 66 for Reading, and 70 for some further refinements and extra peak trains to Reading) over 10 years ago.

 

[Mattplans]

It's been widely reported that work is starting to build 10 new Elizabeth line trains. There's a thread here discussion the actual construction and stock. I'm starting this thread to ask/discuss: Does anyone know (or can anyone make educated guesses) what the new trains would be used for? What impact could they have on the timetable?

The current peak hour services from Liv St to Gidea Park will be extended to run through the core, running to a terminus west of Paddington.

 

[coppercapped]

That seems a bit short-sighted considering the Elizabeth line doesn't go to Euston - so even when HS2 was planned to terminate at Euston, it would be a reasonable expectation that anyone already on the Elizabeth line who wanted HS2 would want to go to OOC to pick it up anyway.

It was expected that OOC and Euston would share the load. There may also have been an expectation that Crossrail 2 might be built as well shortly after HS2 opened.

The timings here are about face!

Building a station at OOC was planned because it became clear that Crossrail 2 would not be built in time for the originally projected completion date of HS2 reaching Euston. It was anticipated that the sixteen or so HS2 arrivals per hour would have completely overloaded the tube and bus networks in the Euston/St Pancras/Kings Cross complex. The HS2 to Elizabeth line connection at OOC was expected to reduce the number of passengers arriving at Euston by about a third. The sub-surface, tube and buses at Euston would still be very full but the numbers were thought to be manageable.

I can't find any quantified reference in the planning and justification documents for flows in the opposite direction through OOC!

 

[Bald Rick]

I would assume that, once Old Oak Common opens, there's likely to be a requirement for all services that currently terminate at Paddington from the East to run through to OOC - but I'm not sure if allowance was already made for that in the existing stock allocation, and even if it wasn't, I can't see how that would require 10 additional trains. So I would assume some frequency increase is being planned, which wasn't allowed for when the current fleet was ordered?

They were ordered specifically to serve OOC. With an increased frequency to/from the east.

As I’ve said before, there’s no capacity for more services west of OOC (barring a change in the freight market or substantial infrastructure investment).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They were ordered specifically to serve OOC. With an increased frequency to/from the east.

Ah OK, ta for the info. That means my guess was completely correct.

As I’ve said before, there’s no capacity for more services west of OOC (barring a change in the freight market or substantial infrastructure investment).

Haha. I actually meant, I would assume some frequency increase is being planned in the core But clearly not explicitly saying in the core made my message too ambiguous

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone know (or can anyone make educated guesses) what the new trains would be used for? What impact could they have on the timetable?

They won’t be used for much, at least not in the short term. There’s talk of a marginal increase in frequency to Shenfield, but that’s about it.

But as the trains were ordered for political reasons, none of that really matters.

 

[cle]

Was there not talk of additional 2tph to T5?

Really a longer term strategy needs to be about removing freight from the reliefs between 6am-8pm or so, and how we can get to that. Trains are packed beyond Ealing Broadway off peak and peak - and the amount of housing develpment at Acton, Southall and astounding amounts at Hayes, are not slowing down. Slough has a ton of employment too, and a lot of population growth besides.

Should really be a national scheme, to the level of the Inland Route in Australia, about how to remove freight from the GEML, NLL, WCML and GWML as best we can. Likely a windy slow cross country route... we can dream.

 

[Bald Rick]

Should really be a national scheme, to the level of the Inland Route in Australia, about how to remove freight from the GEML, NLL, WCML and GWML as best we can. Likely a windy slow cross country route... we can dream.

A fairly significant proportion of freight on the GWML is destined for locations within the M25 (or just outside).

 

[Mgameing123]

On a daily basis, 65 of the 70 trains are diagrammed. So I imagine a few are for resilience, some of a potential uptick of services - it's been rumoured 26-28tph through the core will be coming in the next few years - and also the extension of services towards OOC.



It wasn't. HS2 was pretty reliably planned to terminate at Euston when they were ordered, whereas OOC is now presumed to be the terminus for longer.

Knowing how politicians do things, Euston will probably never get built because as they say: "There is no solution more permanent than a temporary solution".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

A fairly significant proportion of freight on the GWML is destined for locations within the M25 (or just outside).

I mean West Drayton and Acton Mainline are the 2 main spots for freight. The issues can be solved if we built a spur of the New North Mainline from somewhere near North Acton to Acton Wells and from somewhere between West Rusilip and Denham to somewhere between West Drayton and Langley.
That way we can free up alot of capacity on the busiest parts of the relief line.

 

[Horizon22]

Knowing how politicians do things, Euston will probably never get built because as they say: "There is no solution more permanent than a temporary solution".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==


I mean West Drayton and Acton Mainline are the 2 main spots for freight. The issues can be solved if we built a spur of the New North Mainline from somewhere near North Acton to Acton Wells and from somewhere between West Rusilip and Denham to somewhere between West Drayton and Langley.
That way we can free up alot of capacity on the busiest parts of the relief line.

There’s a lot of freight loops / sidings / routes on the Inner Thames Valley; West Drayton and Acton Yard yes, but also freight via the Poplars, Hanwell Bridge, freight via Greenford and also adhoc movements to Southall yard and the occasional move to Paddington New Yard.

It’s a lot and it clashes badly sometimes with an up to 10tph metro service with signalling less intensively spaced than the GEML (where freight runs on the Mains and the speed differential is lower) but it’s hard to see how this will be fixed without monumental infrastructure expenditure.

 

[SynthD]

The issues can be solved if we built a spur of the New North Mainline from somewhere near North Acton to Acton Wells

Considerable difference in elevation.

from somewhere between West Rusilip and Denham to somewhere between West Drayton and Langley.

Green belt, water, motorway are just some of the hurdles. What portion of current freight would want to go these ways? Somerset quarries to Acton via Oxford doesn’t seem like a choice the freight companies would make. You may be better off claiming (how?) back never used paths and accommodating those that do run.

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean West Drayton and Acton Mainline are the 2 main spots for freight. The issues can be solved if we built a spur of the New North Mainline from somewhere near North Acton to Acton Wells and from somewhere between West Rusilip and Denham to somewhere between West Drayton and Langley.
That way we can free up alot of capacity on the busiest parts of the relief line.

And Hanwell, Wembley, Willesden, Hayes & Harlington, Colnbrook, Brentford, ParkRoyal, Paddington, Cricklewood, Neasden, St Pancras, Bow, Dagenham Dock, Purfleet, Tilbury, Watford, Hitchin, Harlow, Stewarts Lane, Angerstein, Purley, Tolworth, Chelmsford, Crawley… all served by stone trains off the GWML.

 

[London Trains]

And Hanwell, Wembley, Willesden, Hayes & Harlington, Colnbrook, Brentford, ParkRoyal, Paddington, Cricklewood, Neasden, St Pancras, Bow, Dagenham Dock, Purfleet, Tilbury, Watford, Hitchin, Harlow, Stewarts Lane, Angerstein, Purley, Tolworth, Chelmsford, Crawley… all served by stone trains off the GWML.

Yes, and the bypass that the OP suggested would mean that freight going to/from the large majority of these locations would be able to avoid the section of the GWML between OOC and West Drayton. While, yes, it would likely be prohibitively expensive, what the OP is suggesting absolutely would solve the issue at hand.

 

[Bald Rick]

While, yes, it would likely be prohibitively expensive, what the OP is suggesting absolutely would solve the issue at hand.

I’m reasonably sure a chord from the NNL to the NLL at Acton Wells is physically impossible.

 

[brad465]

And Hanwell, Wembley, Willesden, Hayes & Harlington, Colnbrook, Brentford, ParkRoyal, Paddington, Cricklewood, Neasden, St Pancras, Bow, Dagenham Dock, Purfleet, Tilbury, Watford, Hitchin, Harlow, Stewarts Lane, Angerstein, Purley, Tolworth, Chelmsford, Crawley… all served by stone trains off the GWML.

Sorry to be pedantic, but as I used to live down the road from the following place I couldn't let this go, but Allington (near Maidstone) has Whatley Quarry freight too.

 

[Mr. SW]

I’m reasonably sure a chord from the NNL to the NLL at Acton Wells is physically impossible.

Why would you ever want to do this?

 

[JonathanH]

Why would you ever want to do this?

To divert the freight trains from the Mendips via the west Reading curve (or Melksham) and then Oxford and High Wycombe, thereby freeing up paths for more Elizabeth Line trains west of Paddington.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I mean West Drayton and Acton Mainline are the 2 main spots for freight. The issues can be solved if we built a spur of the New North Mainline from somewhere near North Acton to Acton Wells and from somewhere between West Rusilip and Denham to somewhere between West Drayton and Langley.
That way we can free up alot of capacity on the busiest parts of the relief line.

Sorry, but what's the New North Mainline?

 

[Mgameing123]

Sorry, but what's the New North Mainline?

It's the rail line between Old Oak Common and South Ruislip. It was the line that once a day Chiltern parliamentary train between Paddington and High Wycombe used to use.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry to be pedantic, but as I used to live down the road from the following place I couldn't let this go, but Allington (near Maidstone) has Whatley Quarry freight too.

Indeed, I was keeping the list to those within a reasonable distance of the M25, I guess Allington might just squeeze in my ill defined boundary

Why would you ever want to do this?

I was responding to a post up thread, it’s not my idea.

To divert the freight trains from the Mendips via the west Reading curve (or Melksham) and then Oxford and High Wycombe, thereby freeing up paths for more Elizabeth Line trains west of Paddington.

The idea appeared to be a new line roughly parallel to the M25 from Iver-ish to Denham-ish, along the Chiltern line, then this new chord at Acton. If i have understood correctly, this means freight on the GWML to Iver-ish, then via this new route to the NLL at Acton. We’ll put to one side for a moment the capacity issues on the Chiltern line, the cost, and the laws of physics.

 

[London Trains]

I’m reasonably sure a chord from the NNL to the NLL at Acton Wells is physically impossible.

Whilst I again know it is more than likely prohibitively expensive, why would it be physically impossible?

 

[JamesT]

Whilst I again know it is more than likely prohibitively expensive, why would it be physically impossible?

https://www.bing.com/maps/search?FORM=HDRSC6&style=a&cp=51.522166~-0.252301&lvl=16.9&sd=0 I believe is the area in question? With the NNL running top left to bottom right, and the NLL crossing it and the GWML going roughly top to bottom.
There doesn't look like much space for anything.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst I again know it is more than likely prohibitively expensive, why would it be physically impossible?

I should have caveated with “as the OP expects it”.

There is no space in the immediate Acton Wells area for another junction on the North London Line. To build a link between the ‘New North’ and NLL would actually mean building multiple links, which would have to be grade seperated (some several times)

 

[Mr. SW]

I was responding to a post up thread, it’s not my idea.

I was agreeing with you.

BTW I checked on the height difference between the New North Main Line and the North London Line and its roughly 6 metres or so, maybe a little larger.

There is a video by citytransportinfo of trains at North Acton and you can see the North London bridge at 6:55 at 13:46, but this is way off-topic so I'm not grace my comment with a link.

 

[Acton1991]

Was there not talk of additional 2tph to T5?

Really a longer term strategy needs to be about removing freight from the reliefs between 6am-8pm or so, and how we can get to that. Trains are packed beyond Ealing Broadway off peak and peak - and the amount of housing develpment at Acton, Southall and astounding amounts at Hayes, are not slowing down. Slough has a ton of employment too, and a lot of population growth besides.

Should really be a national scheme, to the level of the Inland Route in Australia, about how to remove freight from the GEML, NLL, WCML and GWML as best we can. Likely a windy slow cross country route... we can dream.

I completely agree. As a commuter into town from Acton Main Line, it’s getting unbearable in the morning peak. Unable to board is the norm, with a further 15 minute wait for the next train, that is just as full.

Something needs to be done and it may have to be drastic!

 

[class397tpe]

I completely agree. As a commuter into town from Acton Main Line, it’s getting unbearable in the morning peak. Unable to board is the norm, with a further 15 minute wait for the next train, that is just as full.

Something needs to be done and it may have to be drastic!

I’m unsure of the timetabling reasons (perhaps someone can explain), but I find it odd that more trains can’t stop at Acton Main Line considering the small difference in the scheduled time from Ealing Broadway to Paddington. Trains stopping at Acton Main Line are timetabled to do Ealing Broadway to Paddington in 10-11 minutes, while the majority of other services are timetabled for between 9-11 minutes. For example, the 10:59 off Reading and the 11:32 off Heathrow Terminal 4 are both timetabled 10 minutes between Ealing Broadway and Paddington, yet the Heathrow service manages to fit an Acton Main Line stop, whereas the Reading service crawls its way to Paddington. Or in the peak, the 07:43 off Maidenhead is actually timetabled to do Ealing - Paddington in 13 minutes, longer than the following service off Terminal 4 which does it in 11 minutes with a stop at Acton Main Line.

The freight paths in the peak also seem lightly used and sacrifice capacity - e.g. at Ealing Broadway this morning, none of the freight paths at 07:54, 08:00, 08:17 were utilised. All paths cause larger than usual gaps between services in the peak. The 08:17 path is especially painful as the large gap is followed by a rammed stopper train from Terminal 4, meaning many passengers have to wait for the subsequent services originating from Reading at 08:28 (which is also rammed) and 08:32 (usually quieter). This freight path hasn’t actually run at all in the past 2 weeks.