New 350s for TPE and LM

[T163R]

Could Desiro City trains be adapted to these routes ?

 

[Lampshade]

Lampshade, what about 323s for Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria services?

Pointless, the 90mph top speed is best utilised between Crewe and Stockport. The linespeed between Manchester and Blackpool (apart from a short stretch of WCML) is 75mph.

 

[Whistler40145]

Never thought about that, sorry.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think 350s may be a bit excessive on routes like Blackpool - Man Vic. Something like a 378 with proper seats would be better suited for slower multiple stop services.

Er... A 378 with proper seats is basically a 377: and Siemens' 350 and Bombardier's 377 are competing products aimed at exactly the same market...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could Desiro City trains be adapted to these routes ?

No reason why not, but the initial Desiro Citys for Thameslink are 100 mph interurban trains, with 2+2 seating. More like 350/1 but much longer...

 

[T163R]

No reason why not, but the initial Desiro Citys for Thameslink are 100 mph interurban trains, with 2+2 seating. More like 350/1 but much longer...

Well you just need to adapt the train...

 

[bluenoxid]

No route is going over to tram-train until the Sheffield-Rotherham service has been trialled.

No, this is a tram route.

Official notice for operators due in a few months time. Timescales have been pushed back but it is by no means waiting for the Tram Train Trial.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well you just need to adapt the train...

That's the main point I was trying to make.

Both the Desiro City and the Bombardier Adventra (Electrostar replacement) will come in whatever speed/layout/door style you want - so saying you don't want a 350 because a 378 is more suitable is pretty much pointless...

 

[tbtc]

Pointless, the 90mph top speed is best utilised between Crewe and Stockport. The linespeed between Manchester and Blackpool (apart from a short stretch of WCML) is 75mph.

...but there's talk of 100mph 319s on that route at some stage. Also bear in mind that Manchester - Blackpool currently has 125mph DMUs running on it. A batch of 350s for routes like these wouldn't be overkill

 

[Masbroughlad]

I just hope the TPEx trains for Scotland services have a much higher spec inside - ie InterCity standard and not like the current 185s/350s.

Wishful thinking no doubt!

 

[swt_passenger]

...but there's talk of 100mph 319s on that route at some stage. Also bear in mind that Manchester - Blackpool currently has 125mph DMUs running on it. A batch of 350s for routes like these wouldn't be overkill

Agree - there are 100 mph EMUs running all over the SWT/SN/SE/FCC areas which don't get out of 'first gear' for significant parts of their routes; but on those sections where it can actually be used, such as when they finally join the main line for the last run into Waterloo or whatever, they can keep up with everything else, which allows higher overall frequencies.

I doubt there's much of a significant cost differntial involved in building different units for 75/90/100 any more anyway.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just hope the TPEx trains for Scotland services have a much higher spec inside - ie InterCity standard and not like the current 185s/350s.

Wishful thinking no doubt!

It's explicitly mentioned in the LM announcement:

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

 

[astock5000]

The 321's won't go unless 350's can be cleared on the st albans abbey line.

There is a class 350 doing some sort of testing on the Abbey line tonight, (as well as last night). It seems its only running between Garston and Bricket Wood.

 

[fgwrich]

There is a class 350 doing some sort of testing on the Abbey line tonight, (as well as last night). It seems its only running between Garston and Bricket Wood.

So, if they are starting to test 350s on the St Albans Line, then the extra 8 350s are starting to sound very strongly like 321 replacements! Do we actually know why 350s cannot run all the way through to St Albans is? Or could it be just a case of having not used 350s on the branch yet - then they havent been cleared for them?

Wonder if LMs 8 New 350s will be the better 350/1 Design, or more the not so good 350/2 design?

 

[RichW1]

Well, the Desiro's will be 110mph units but STILL NO INTERCITY!! ARGHHH! After all this time instead of an Intercity, the status quo has just been re-affirmed - no Intercity for a journey between two metro areas of millions of people each, over 220 track miles apart! Give me strength. Why would anyone overseeing franchising think this is ok? It is not ok. I can't think of a single country in the world that would consider running these cummuter/regional trains over an Intercity route of such populations. Bizarre, completely just beyond comprehension. Still easier to catch the plane.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, the Desiro's will be 110mph units but STILL NO INTERCITY!!

From the LM annoucement:

Negotiations with the preferred supplier in respect of the units destined for the Manchester to Scotland service are likely to include certain interior design changes which reflect the longer distance journey patterns on this route.

Sound to me like they will be specifying interiors designed for long distance travel.

 

[RichW1]

That would be great if only they would specify stopping patterns for long-distance travel too! In-fact, forget what I just said there, instead of ordering a regional train and fitting it with modifications on layout for longer journeys, why not just order Intercity trains for that specific route in the first place?!! Just an idea!

 

[northwichcat]

Pointless, the 90mph top speed is best utilised between Crewe and Stockport. The linespeed between Manchester and Blackpool (apart from a short stretch of WCML) is 75mph.

But DfT want to put 100mph 319s on the North West routes with redundant third rail equipment. The 100mph 333s in Yorkshire also don't go over 90mph.

 

[swt_passenger]

So, if they are starting to test 350s on the St Albans Line, then the extra 8 350s are starting to sound very strongly like 321 replacements!

Then why announce them as 8 additional units? It is just as possible that the 8 x 350s will join the WCML fleet and that will allow the 321s to move to the Birmingham area.

 

[LouJ]

A few posts have mentioned Bombardier at Derby and the problems this plant causes when ordering new trains. The "Press" seem to think that keeping Derby open solves all sort of issues and that oders such as new Desiros would be better placed at Derby for all sorts of reasons.

My view is that Bombardier would love to close the plant at Derby as its great problem is an inability to build stock for Europe as it is impossible to send new stock by rail to Europe. Concentrating production in Europe must be their eventual goal as they have a better chance of obtaining regular work. This restriction means the plant is inherrently linked to Network Rail placing orders. Siemens and indeed Bombarier plants in Europe have a much bigger market and can realy on steady throughput of production from a variety of railway companies hence improving efficiency, prices and other elements of competitive bidding.

Had UK railwasy been built to the more generous European loading gauge then I feel Derby would have been better placed to win orders as its cost base would have been lower and it would lose its dependency on one source of orders.

 

[starrymarkb]

That would be great if only they would specify stopping patterns for long-distance travel too! In-fact, forget what I just said there, instead of ordering a regional train and fitting it with modifications on layout for longer journeys, why not just order Intercity trains for that specific route in the first place?!! Just an idea!

Time and cost - By ordering this way they get economies of scale from standardised fleets (see the various rants about why we don't have one standard design rather then many incompatible ones), the design work is done already, and what intercity options are there apart from the IEP Camel Class which isn't due to be entering production until 2016-17 - mini pendos?

 

[Yew]

A few posts have mentioned Bombardier at Derby and the problems this plant causes when ordering new trains. The "Press" seem to think that keeping Derby open solves all sort of issues and that oders such as new Desiros would be better placed at Derby for all sorts of reasons.

My view is that Bombardier would love to close the plant at Derby as its great problem is an inability to build stock for Europe as it is impossible to send new stock by rail to Europe. Concentrating production in Europe must be their eventual goal as they have a better chance of obtaining regular work. This restriction means the plant is inherrently linked to Network Rail placing orders. Siemens and indeed Bombarier plants in Europe have a much bigger market and can realy on steady throughput of production from a variety of railway companies hence improving efficiency, prices and other elements of competitive bidding.

Had UK railwasy been built to the more generous European loading gauge then I feel Derby would have been better placed to win orders as its cost base would have been lower and it would lose its dependency on one source of orders.

Im guessing getting some sort of limited guage clearance for derby to STP would be pretty much impossible, how much does it all vary?

 

[tbtc]

That would be great if only they would specify stopping patterns for long-distance travel too!

So what do you want to stop at smaller places like Lockerbie/ Penrith?

The service may go "between two metro areas of millions of people each" but there's not much of a population in the 200+ miles in between, and no "local" trains to serve these smaller places.

 

[starrymarkb]

Surely It would not be impossible? 332/333's were apparantly designed for a top speed of 160mph! but are limited to 100.

No they are not - I think you might have missread - they are designed for 160km/h - roughly 100mph

 

[tbtc]

Then why announce them as 8 additional units? It is just as possible that the 8 x 350s will join the WCML fleet and that will allow the 321s to move to the Birmingham area.

The quote on the website is

It is expected that approximately 32 of the new vehicles (probably in 8 x 4-car unit formation) will be for use in expanding London Midland’s existing fleet of electric multiple units to provide additional capacity on London Midland’s services

Now, you could read that as eight additional trains, and I hope that it is eight additional trains, but you could argue that eight trains replacing seven trains (7x 321) is still "expanding the fleet" and "providing additional capacity".

Call my cynical...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed. Here's hoping the mainstream press don't hear about it, as it'll only give them a further opportunity to display their ignorance...

....and we all know who will be the leading contenders, if this were to happen :roll:

 

[FrozenPoints]

http://blogpreston.co.uk/2011/09/new-trains-proposed-by-first-trans-pennine-on-north-west-lines/

New trains proposed by First TransPennine on North West lines

Above, it’s the train passengers have been waiting for, but it’ll arrive in December 2013.

The sleek, greener, cleaner and faster 110mph 4-car Siemens Class 350 ‘Desiro’ train order for First TransPennine Express (FTPE) are coming in anticipation of electrification in the North West.

And this means a more bearable travelling experience, faster journey times, longer trains and overcrowding eased from the likes of Preston station.

With the disbursement of the existing – and arguably – successful 3-car Siemens Class 185 ‘Pennine Desiro’ trains, the North West will feel more of the benefits of extra capacity, and FTPE say they’ll be able to “provide much needed” capacity across the northern cities.

FTPE will receive up to 10 x 4-car Class 350 Desiro sets, teaming up with transport rival London Midland, in placing an order for the trains.

The managing director of FTPE, Vernon Barker, welcomed the announcement of new trains to relieve shorter, overcrowded trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

Im guessing getting some sort of limited guage clearance for derby to STP would be pretty much impossible

Engineering wise nothing is impossible but clearing 128 miles of the MML (even if we we're to clear just one track) would cost hundreds of millions if not approaching a billion. It's just isn't economically viable to do so just to enable Derby to compete in Europe.

 

[northwichcat]

Now, you could read that as eight additional trains, and I hope that it is eight additional trains, but you could argue that eight trains replacing seven trains (7x 321) is still "expanding the fleet" and "providing additional capacity".

Call my cynical...

Technically the 321s still at LM are already additional capacity as the 350/2s replaced the 321s.

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel have made my view on the TPE Scotland subject very clear in the past and wil continue to do so. The thing with this announcement is the speed increase if it goes ahead which I hope for. To make it an acceptable option for scotland manchester, similar seating to EC or FGW HSTS will be a must. Anything less and they are stil a regional train. I know the announcement said interior spec would be different but its going to have to be far better than the 185s which when mew were described as having IC qualitty seats.

Plugs at ALL seats, wifi and a micro buffet too also if this is to work. I hope also that they dont use this as an excuse to flog even more advance tickets or the problem we have now wil remain, that being that every seat is an advance and anyone paying full price does so to stand or sit on the floor.

A point was made about calling paterns - lockerbie, Penrith etc must be served but fast from Balton to man pic or at worst Oxford Road is essential or as stated before, the plane is your friend!

 

[northwichcat]

A point was made about calling paterns - lockerbie, Penrith etc must be served but fast from Balton to man pic or at worst Oxford Road is essential or as stated before, the plane is your friend!

Balton? Do you mean Bolton? The service will be diverted via Wigan and will either run Manchester to Preston non-stop or make one call at Wigan. Wigan is supposed to get extra services to Manchester as part of the Manchester Hub but it is unclear whether Scottish services will be part of that.

At present most, not all, TPE services call at Lockerbie and Penrith. Motherwell gets a limited service and Carstairs a limited evening service Mon-Thurs that's aimed at giving a connection between an Edinburgh and a Glasgow service.

 

[Whistler40145]

The new 350s for Manchester to Scotland services must have better quality seating than those on 185s.

Also, I would want power points installed as per Virgin Pendolinos, decent quality toilets, better luggage space & a mini buffet/shop or a trolley service for all the journey.