Network South East in the 2000s and beyond

[NorthKent1989]

As a amateur writer I once wrote a story regarding this, I won’t go into too much detail now but here’s what I came up with:

- New sub sector lines arise in the mid 1990s, Thames & Medway is split off from Kent Link and covers the Greenwich and North Kent lines down to Medway, Maidstone West and Tonbridge,
Windsor & Reading lines is also formed

- CrossRail remains a NSE and LT joint effort and opens in the late 2000s

- Thameslink 2000 does indeed go ahead shortly after the year 2000, with routes to Ashford, Kings Lynn and Peterborough

- High Speed One is NSE operated

- NSE upgrades the North London lines

- The Sub Surface Tube lines are absorbed into NSE (okay this is far fetched but in the early 2000s Railtrack did want to take over these lines) as the Metropolitan District Lines

This is obviously fantasy and not to be taken seriously so feel free to add your ideas!

 

[LOL The Irony]

I would see all BR sectors being sectorised themselves in the late 90's or early 00's. So you would have Regional Railways North, InterCity XC, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The entire South East network becomes DOO with Penalty Fares. OBS never happens, and so all of what we now call Southern runs single-manned at all times.

It's privatisation that stopped the relentless march of DOO (for a bit).

 

[NorthKent1989]

I would see all BR sectors being sectorised themselves in the late 90's or early 00's. So you would have Regional Railways North, InterCity XC, etc.

Or maybe even Network North West could have been revived?

One thing would be certain is that London Overground wouldn’t exist, LO effectively replaced NSE and filled the void it left behind in the mid 00s, albeit on a much much smaller scale.

Another thing I that the “Orbirail” idea which eventually became the Core of the Overground could become a NSE project under the name of “RingRail”

Perhaps CrossRail 2 might start construction now for opening in the mid to late 2020s.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I also am writing a timeline on this over at alternate history.com, been writing it for almost a year now an am thoroughly enjoying it.

From my own wider reading, it kind of depends on what leader you get and how the butterfly effect takes hold. For example-

Thatcher keeps going= economy not as bad, more Networkers, no Heseltine in cabinet means the CTRL goes to Kings Cross low level via South London (this is my timeline)

John Major changes his mind=IC250 and Networker programmes probably don’t happen if the funds aren’t given to BR (Thatcher used the track record in railway investment in the 1987 election and would almost certainly want to continue that legacy). You might get more 365s and some kind of new 125mph loco on the WCML, probably a beefed up class 90. Thameslink would happen in the late 90s

Kinnock wins ‘92=probably most a mix of the two. Don’t think Kinnock would be instinctively anti BR like Major was and could give up the funds for the Networkers and probably Thameslink, but it’s hard to say.

CrossRail will never happen in the 1990s no matter how you twist it. Central London office employment had crashed in the mid 90s, partly because of the economic downturn and partly because of the rise of Canary Wharf.

In any timeline, Network SouthEast would be huge, and would have an asset value of £15 billion. If privatised, it would be one of the top 20 biggest companies in Britain.

I’ve got some interesting pictures from a 2011 edition of the Railway Magazine which features some interesting drawings of Networker trains that were never built if anyone wants me to upload them.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I’ve got some interesting pictures from a 2011 edition of the Railway Magazine which features some interesting drawings of Networker trains that were never built if anyone wants me to upload them.

Please. And the alternate history link please.

 

[yorksrob]

NSE would continue to specify first class compartments on express multiple units into the noughties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NSE would continue to specify first class compartments on express multiple units into the noughties.

I very much doubt this - Networker type units would have replaced basically everything, and these don't have compartments.

 

[yorksrob]

I very much doubt this - Networker type units would have replaced basically everything, and these don't have compartments.

Ah but you assume everything would have been the same as the suburban networkers that replaced the EPB's.

Networker Express units would have been specified for longer distance services to suit the established first class clientelle (rather than Connex, which had originally wanted to get rid and had to put it in as an afterthought).

This would have followed the precedent seen in the 442 units specified for the Bournemouth line and included 1st class compartments.

That's my "predicion" (for want of a better word) anyway.

 

[Aictos]

I very much doubt this - Networker type units would have replaced basically everything, and these don't have compartments.

Indeed any First Class accommodation would be at either end of the train, however would we have seen the Class 365 proposal as a 5 car as a option to replace 442s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed any First Class accommodation would be at either end of the train, however would we have seen the Class 365 proposal as a 5 car as a option to replace 442s?

I reckon so, I'd expect that everything would have been doors-at-thirds and 20m long (which it more or less all is now - only the 442s and 444s are the exception).

 

[telstarbox]

When were the Class 375s specified - by BR or Connex?

 

[Aictos]

When were the Class 375s specified - by BR or Connex?

Seeing as they were built and entered service between 1999 and 2005 when Connex South Eastern was in charge apart from 2003 to 2006 when the DfT ran operations, I say it's a safe bet that they were specified by Connex and not BR especially as Connex took over operations from Oct 1996.

 

[urpert]

Seeing as they were built and entered service between 1999 and 2005 when Connex South Eastern was in charge apart from 2003 to 2006 when the DfT ran operations, I say it's a safe bet that they were specified by Connex and not BR especially as Connex took over operations from Oct 1996.

Agreed. The original 375 moquette is the same as the seat covering Connex used on the few London bus routes they briefly ran in the early 2000s before National Express bought them out.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I also am writing a timeline on this over at alternate history.com, been writing it for almost a year now an am thoroughly enjoying it.

From my own wider reading, it kind of depends on what leader you get and how the butterfly effect takes hold. For example-

Thatcher keeps going= economy not as bad, more Networkers, no Heseltine in cabinet means the CTRL goes to Kings Cross low level via South London (this is my timeline)

John Major changes his mind=IC250 and Networker programmes probably don’t happen if the funds aren’t given to BR (Thatcher used the track record in railway investment in the 1987 election and would almost certainly want to continue that legacy). You might get more 365s and some kind of new 125mph loco on the WCML, probably a beefed up class 90. Thameslink would happen in the late 90s

Kinnock wins ‘92=probably most a mix of the two. Don’t think Kinnock would be instinctively anti BR like Major was and could give up the funds for the Networkers and probably Thameslink, but it’s hard to say.

CrossRail will never happen in the 1990s no matter how you twist it. Central London office employment had crashed in the mid 90s, partly because of the economic downturn and partly because of the rise of Canary Wharf.

In any timeline, Network SouthEast would be huge, and would have an asset value of £15 billion. If privatised, it would be one of the top 20 biggest companies in Britain.

I’ve got some interesting pictures from a 2011 edition of the Railway Magazine which features some interesting drawings of Networker trains that were never built if anyone wants me to upload them.

Oh do share please! Sounds like you have a very realistic scenario there

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed any First Class accommodation would be at either end of the train,

You mean like it is on a VEP or a CIG !

 

[Aictos]

You mean like it is on a VEP or a CIG !

Or like it is with Class 317/6s, Class 365s, Class 700s etc....

 

[mmh]

I reckon so, I'd expect that everything would have been doors-at-thirds and 20m long (which it more or less all is now - only the 442s and 444s are the exception).

171s are 23m too.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/thatcher-survives-so-does-british-rail.433521/ My timeline is here. Pictures of could-have-been Networkers on page 5.