Network Rail's Linear Scrap Yard

[Deepgreen]

Many months ago, NR's Chief Exective, Mark Carne, promised a major clean-up of Britain's railway routes to reduce the appalling mess that many are in and to reduce safety hazards caused by abandoned materials, most of which have come from their own contractors' operations.

Far from following through on this promise, the situation continues to worsen, and the amount of discarded railway equipment and materials littering the ten foot, six foot and four foot (old rail) is staggering. The regime of simply dumping surplus or replaced hardware by the line-side has not changed at all as far as I can see, and the amount of scrap rail alone must be worth millions.

Obviously it is a major undertaking to clear the backlog of scrap, but to allow the dumping to continue, seemingly unabated, is extremely disappointing and short-sighted, as presumably at some point there is going to be a serious incident caused by the continuing build up of waste, which will then lead to an enforced removal. The longer the current regime continues, the harder that will be.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Assuming that there is only a limited amount of time to carry out work on the track before the line re-opens perhaps Network Rail or their contractors simply don't have time to collect waste materials.

 

[Deepgreen]

Assuming that there is only a limited amount of time to carry out work on the track before the line re-opens perhaps Network Rail or their contractors simply don't have time to collect waste materials.

Very probably, but it was a commitment made very publicly in an industry address by their head!

 

[sarahj]

What gets me more, is things like cutting discs just dumped on the lineside. These are sharp items that could injure someone walking the track in the dark. Is it not too much to ask, just before a line reopens, to run a test train and have someone collecting these bits and pieces as they go along. Perhaps Network rail needs to buy one of these to run and pick up bits and bobs.

http://www.robel.info/en/products/detail.asp?id=179&tit=Track%20Vehicle&cfilter

In HO form. (i've got one, its great )

http://www.viessmann-modell.com/index.php?show=shop&cPath=32&lang=en&cat=c236_RailMotion.html

 

[IanD]

Many months ago, NR's Chief Exective, Mark Carne, promised a major clean-up of Britain's railway routes to reduce the appalling mess that many are in and to reduce safety hazards caused by abandoned materials, most of which have come from their own contractors' operations.

Far from following through on this promise, the situation continues to worsen, and the amount of discarded railway equipment and materials littering the ten foot, six foot and four foot (old rail) is staggering. The regime of simply dumping surplus or replaced hardware by the line-side has not changed at all as far as I can see, and the amount of scrap rail alone must be worth millions.

Obviously it is a major undertaking to clear the backlog of scrap, but to allow the dumping to continue, seemingly unabated, is extremely disappointing and short-sighted, as presumably at some point there is going to be a serious incident caused by the continuing build up of waste, which will then lead to an enforced removal. The longer the current regime continues, the harder that will be.

I think I read on here that many of the lengths of track in the "four foot" (or even six and ten) were strategically placed for use in emergencies to replace broken rails.

 

[DarloRich]

I do love threads like this. No connection with or understanding as to why the problem is created.

Lets say, for instance, you have a 12 hour possession. 1 of those hours is set up, 10 hours working time and 1 hour is clean up. If you fail to hand back the completed site exactly on 12 hours you face vast financial penalties, terrible PR and very unhappy customers. Your access to that site is planned months in advance and can ONLY happen in the allotted window. You start to run late due to unforeseen problems and the pressure not to over run ramps up. Which bit of the job do you think gets cut?

You then have the issue of the TOC allowing further access to pick up the scrap, suitable "white time" in the timetable and having the finances, equipment and man power available to do so. All the time under pressure to reduce possession time, manpower and spend.

It isn't good enough and things can and should be better but it isn't quite as easy of many of you think.

 

[Deepgreen]

I do love threads like this. No connection with or understanding as to why the problem is created.

Lets say, for instance, you have a 12 hour possession. 1 of those hours is set up, 10 hours working time and 1 hour is clean up. If you fail to hand back the completed site exactly on 12 hours you face vast financial penalties, terrible PR and very unhappy customers. Your access to that site is planned months in advance and can ONLY happen in the allotted window. You start to run late due to unforeseen problems and the pressure not to over run ramps up. Which bit of the job do you think gets cut?

You then have the issue of the TOC allowing further access to pick up the scrap, suitable "white time" in the timetable and having the finances, equipment and man power available to do so. All the time under pressure to reduce possession time, manpower and spend.

It isn't good enough and things can and should be better but it isn't quite as easy of many of you think.

I'm glad you love the thread! I have a very good knowledge of how the problem has arisen, but, as I stated at the beginning - it was a commitment made by Mark Carne virtually a year ago in his address to a major rail industry gathering. We must assume, must we not, that, as Head of Network Rail, he has a modicum of knowledge/back up from his senior team about how his commitment would be enacted?

Incidentally, London Underground managed a similar exercise a couple of years ago and was able to recover a large amount of material. They run a fairly intensive service, I believe.

I have managed to locate the extract from his speech at the 26 February 2015 'George Bradshaw Address':

Showing we care
We also need to show by our actions as leaders that we care. This is one of the reasons why I have been so focused on what I call the ‘tidy railway’. To me, it is inconsistent to be talking about caring for your workforce, if you then put them out onto a railway which is frankly a bit of a scrap heap.
We have a huge programme now to pick up tens of thousands of tonnes of scrap rail, tens of thousands of tonnes of old sleepers and we are cutting down hundreds of miles of buddleia along the railway.
It is not just tidying up the physical trip hazards; it is also making the railway look more pleasant for our passengers and more professional for our staff. Anybody who takes the train out of Euston or King’s Cross today and at many other locations will notice the graffiti that has been removed.
The message is clear. We care about passengers, we care about our lineside neighbours, we care about our worksites, we care about our people and we care about the railway.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm glad you love the thread! I have a very good knowledge of how the problem has arisen, but, as I stated at the beginning - it was a commitment made by Mark Carne virtually a year ago in his address to a major rail industry gathering. We must assume, must we not, that, as Head of Network Rail, he has a modicum of knowledge/back up from his senior team about how his commitment would be enacted?

Incidentally, London Underground managed a similar exercise a couple of years ago and was able to recover a large amount of material. They run a fairly intensive service, I believe.

I have managed to locate the extract from his speech at the 26 February 2015 'George Bradshaw Address':

Showing we care
We also need to show by our actions as leaders that we care. This is one of the reasons why I have been so focused on what I call the ‘tidy railway’. To me, it is inconsistent to be talking about caring for your workforce, if you then put them out onto a railway which is frankly a bit of a scrap heap.
We have a huge programme now to pick up tens of thousands of tonnes of scrap rail, tens of thousands of tonnes of old sleepers and we are cutting down hundreds of miles of buddleia along the railway.
It is not just tidying up the physical trip hazards; it is also making the railway look more pleasant for our passengers and more professional for our staff. Anybody who takes the train out of Euston or King’s Cross today and at many other locations will notice the graffiti that has been removed.
The message is clear. We care about passengers, we care about our lineside neighbours, we care about our worksites, we care about our people and we care about the railway.

And things have been improved. Is the work complete? No. The job is large

 

[Deepgreen]

And things have been improved. Is the work complete? No. The job is large

My initial point was that, in my experience of travelling around the railway, things have worsened, not improved. As I said, more and more material is being dumped from every new work package, thus perpetuating the problem. There's no doubting that the job is large, but it's still getting larger. If improvements have been made at some locations - great, but they appear to be against the wider trend.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day - BR used to have "tidy" weeks when a massive effort was made to pick up such debris - as well as major operations - like "Operation Cleansweep" where (to quote one example) - one of my now retired Station Managers had a gang of PW blokes - a 31 and some low flat wagons and carte blanche to sweep the Liverpool St - Southend lines of debris in the weekday off peak. Yes - of peak - with the signalmen sorting out paths in between service trains on his say so - he had a hugely enjoyable week and they picked up over 50 tons of debris / scrap rail / etc..

But then - BR was "deeply inefficient" said a failed would be bus conductor.

A point - the level of track related debris - let alone grafitti is appalling - the MML south is no rose garden - but a recent trip to Leeds was an eye opener.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My initial point was that, in my experience of travelling around the railway, things have worsened, not improved. As I said, more and more material is being dumped from every new work package, thus perpetuating the problem. There's no doubting that the job is large, but it's still getting larger. If improvements have been made at some locations - great, but they appear to be against the wider trend.

Agreed - are not track components "free issue" to contractors ? - (Baldrick will know)- so they have no ownership on unused or scrap components - even donw to base plates and pandrol clips etc - which just get left...?

 

[Trog]

I believe Stonebridge Park used to be able to run a light loco round all the signal boxes in the local area carrying a vet, to give the signal box cats a once over.

As for scrap I think one of the problems is that the cost of lifting it is now more than the scrap metal is worth. Another is that different projects do not want to clear up each others mess as the added cost makes the tidy project look bad. The wooden dollar problem.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think I read on here that many of the lengths of track in the "four foot" (or even six and ten) were strategically placed for use in emergencies to replace broken rails.

You may actually have read about it only a couple of days ago, on the 2nd Feb.

It took me a while to find but Philip Phlopp had posted about strategic spares here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2451811&postcount=4

 

[Oxfordblues]

I recently joined a bunch of volunteers on the Welsh Highland Railway who'd organised a tidy-up special consisting of a loco, about 5 open wagons and a mess van. We walked along beside it filling the wagons with bits of rail, scrap metal, wood, concrete and plastic items, much of which would be later sold or recycled.

Is it beyond the wit of man to organise something similar on the standard gauge?

 

[lincolnshire]

You may actually have read about it only a couple of days ago, on the 2nd Feb.

It took me a while to find but Philip Phlopp had posted about strategic spares here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2451811&postcount=4

Strategic spares is one thing but loads of new and leftover items just dumped at line side is another thing as you can see out of the train window if you look.

If your having Strategic spares surely you will have it in a place which is handy to get access to have for example on some old sleepers to keep it out the grass and have it labelled or painted on the side of it as to why its there and what type of rail it is etc. One would have thought that it should road accessible too and not left half a mile down the line side.

Look at all the bags of ballast left after jobs that could be collected and moved elsewhere, but instead more seems to be ordered for another site instead.

For every ballast bag left behind would you leave a £20 note there instead
its the attitude its not mine, but it is your money if your a tax payer.

If contractors don,t clear up the the final payment should be withheld till the site is left clear, they would soon learn when it cost them money to go back and clear up.


The higher management staff should get some train riding in and leave the mobile phone behind and go look out of the train window and see whats laid out there line side and the state of the line side rubbish wise.

There seems to be too many in Network Rail management that has never been on a train and looked out of the window and seen what out there.

 

[furnessvale]

I recently joined a bunch of volunteers on the Welsh Highland Railway who'd organised a tidy-up special consisting of a loco, about 5 open wagons and a mess van. We walked along beside it filling the wagons with bits of rail, scrap metal, wood, concrete and plastic items, much of which would be later sold or recycled.

Is it beyond the wit of man to organise something similar on the standard gauge?

How much an hour were the volunteers on?

How long, and at what time of the day/week were you granted a possession?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Strategic spares is one thing but loads of new and leftover items just dumped at line side is another thing as you can see out of the train window if you look.

If your having Strategic spares surely you will have it in a place which is handy to get access to have for example on some old sleepers to keep it out the grass and have it labelled or painted on the side of it as to why its there and what type of rail it is etc. One would have thought that it should road accessible too and not left half a mile down the line side.

Look at all the bags of ballast left after jobs that could be collected and moved elsewhere, but instead more seems to be ordered for another site instead.

For every ballast bag left behind would you leave a £20 note there instead
its the attitude its not mine, but it is your money if your a tax payer.

If contractors don,t clear up the the final payment should be withheld till the site is left clear, they would soon learn when it cost them money to go back and clear up.


The higher management staff should get some train riding in and leave the mobile phone behind and go look out of the train window and see whats laid out there line side and the state of the line side rubbish wise.

There seems to be too many in Network Rail management that has never been on a train and looked out of the window and seen what out there.

I've already explained all of this to you.

Spare parts are left (normally with barcode) where they're likely to be needed, which is why they're half a mile down the track and not at an access point, if something breaks and a team are sent to repair it, it's no use a spare part being half a mile away and needing to be dragged along to where it's needed (as has been explained to you already).

Ballast is ballast is ballast, except of course it isn't, as permanent way will explain, it will depend what's being done and what's needed, and if there are further works planned and so on. Get a copy of the Engineering Access Statement for your route and see what's planned.

And as I think I also explained, if there's no access to get back in and collect stuff until another possession, then it ain't getting collected no matter how much you drone on about Network Rail staff not using trains or failing to look out of windows.

 

[Bald Rick]

If contractors don,t clear up the the final payment should be withheld till the site is left clear, they would soon learn when it cost them money to go back and clear up.

That's exactly what is done, but many of them still won't do it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There seems to be too many in Network Rail management that has never been on a train and looked out of the window and seen what out there.

Too many? Name one.


Adding to what has already been said, available time for working is around 2 hours a night (as is the case for almost all of South London and most main lines on the third rail network), the priority is to complete the essential parts of work, clearing up can wait. There is work going on at multiple locations every night, so there will always be clearing up to do. Particularly at present, when the maintenance teams backs are up against the wall - the amount of faults coming in recently, particularly track faults, has been much higher than normal due to the poor weather.

Chiefy P - all track components are free issue to contractors, and indeed all scrap is NR property so can not be taken off NR property by them unless previously agreed.

With more intensive services, and more stringent track safety arrangements, the days of gangs having a shift trackside working red zone to clear it up have long since gone.

I do agree with one element though - if I had a quid for every discarded disc cutter blade or part thereof I've found when out on site, I would now be writing from a luxury chalet in Verbier.

 

[Taunton]

Assuming that there is only a limited amount of time to carry out work on the track before the line re-opens perhaps Network Rail or their contractors simply don't have time to collect waste materials.

I can tell you it would never be tolerated in highway engineering civils tasks, which often work under the same "possession" concept.

 

[lincolnshire]

I've already explained all of this to you.

Spare parts are left (normally with barcode) where they're likely to be needed, which is why they're half a mile down the track and not at an access point, if something breaks and a team are sent to repair it, it's no use a spare part being half a mile away and needing to be dragged along to where it's needed (as has been explained to you already).

Ballast is ballast is ballast, except of course it isn't, as permanent way will explain, it will depend what's being done and what's needed, and if there are further works planned and so on. Get a copy of the Engineering Access Statement for your route and see what's planned.

And as I think I also explained, if there's no access to get back in and collect stuff until another possession, then it ain't getting collected no matter how much you drone on about Network Rail staff not using trains or failing to look out of windows.

How much travelling by train do you do then?

Your attitude leaves a lot to be desired its not just your forum its everyones forum your not at work now trying to tell staff what to do. I am glad I don't have to work for you.

We all don,t work for Network Rail and sing from the management hymn sheet.

 

[DarloRich]

How much travelling by train do you do then?

Your attitude leaves a lot to be desired its not just your forum its everyones forum your not at work now trying to tell staff what to do. I am glad I don't have to work for you.

We all don,t work for Network Rail and sing from the management hymn sheet.

sadly - however much you might not like it P. Phlopp is, in fact, correct. Perhaps you should listen to what he says?

 

[Elecman]

I can tell you it would never be tolerated in highway engineering civils tasks, which often work under the same "possession" concept.

You sure about that I see plenty of crap left lying around after roadworks

 

[Taunton]

You sure about that I see plenty of crap left lying around after roadworks

Yes I am sure. Furthermore if it's not completed the job doesn't get paid for AT ALL until it is.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes I am sure. Furthermore if it's not completed the job doesn't get paid for AT ALL until it is.

What are the penalties like imposed upon the Highways Agency ( or Highways England) if the road is closed longer than planned?

Do Stobarts (say) get paid compo for every minute over the agreed time the road remains closed? (asking out of ignorance - I have no highways experience - to compare and contrast)

 

[Deepgreen]

That's exactly what is done, but many of them still won't do it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Too many? Name one.


Adding to what has already been said, available time for working is around 2 hours a night (as is the case for almost all of South London and most main lines on the third rail network), the priority is to complete the essential parts of work, clearing up can wait. There is work going on at multiple locations every night, so there will always be clearing up to do. Particularly at present, when the maintenance teams backs are up against the wall - the amount of faults coming in recently, particularly track faults, has been much higher than normal due to the poor weather.

Chiefy P - all track components are free issue to contractors, and indeed all scrap is NR property so can not be taken off NR property by them unless previously agreed.

With more intensive services, and more stringent track safety arrangements, the days of gangs having a shift trackside working red zone to clear it up have long since gone.

I do agree with one element though - if I had a quid for every discarded disc cutter blade or part thereof I've found when out on site, I would now be writing from a luxury chalet in Verbier.

While I understand all you say, are we really in a position where virtually nothing can be done about the continuing build up of scrap/debris, etc? If we are, am I being too pessimistic when I predict a serious incident in the not-too-far-distant future caused by the sheer amount of material track-side? This is all aside from the sheer waste of materials, huge un-redeemed scrap value, and environmental blight.

From what I have read here, despite NR's avowed intention to clear their estate, the reality is that the promise cannot be fulfilled and the only outlook is more and more material being left behind after works? You mention that "Clearing up can wait" - until when? Depressing stuff (and who wrote Mark Carne's script?).

 

[daccer]

I have seen Network Rail media releases that used the cost of the 'Tidy Railway' as a contributing factor in their recent budget blowouts. If no effort is being made to tidy the railway I am not sure what costs they could be talking about.

There is obviously some collection of scrap rails (albeit probably from within possessions rather than from some concerted regime) as NR runs frequent trains into Sheffield from March and Crewe with scrap on board.

The simple answer to this conundrum appears to be that a tidy railway comes along way down the list of priorities behind safety, punctuality and cost-effectiveness. I have no comment to make on whether the railway is all of those things or not but tidy it certainly isn't.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

What does concern me, apart from the tidiness, is the potential for vandalism and accidents.

I realise that it's not easy to move lengths of rail, but it doesn't take much to cause a derailment. I've seen lots of things that could potentially be moved to obstruct the track, so I hope that this is taken into consideration when item are left line side.

 

[Deepgreen]

What does concern me, apart from the tidiness, is the potential for vandalism and accidents.

I realise that it's not easy to move lengths of rail, but it doesn't take much to cause a derailment. I've seen lots of things that could potentially be moved to obstruct the track, so I hope that this is taken into consideration when item are left line side.

Quite. Actually, where rails have been cut to fit and off-cuts are left (which is very common), these sections (say half to one metre long) are not that hard for a couple of lads to move and are easily capable of causing a derailment.

The other issue is of course the vast number of trip hazards created by the detritus. For track gangs, etc., this poses ever greater risks of people falling into the paths of trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

sadly - however much you might not like it P. Phlopp is, in fact, correct. Perhaps you should listen to what he says?

Maybe so, but there are some ways of conversing that are more helpful than others. In any case, I don't think anyone is denying the need to have spare kit at places where it would be required, and it is normally placed properly so as to cause minimum hazard. However, the vast majority of old rails, broken/rotting sleepers, rotting bags of ballast, spare and broken cable run sections, empty cable drums, piles of rail clips, etc., that litter the line-side are not spares, but simply abandoned.

 

[DarloRich]

Maybe so, but there are some ways of conversing that are more helpful than others. In any case, I don't think anyone is denying the need to have spare kit at places where it would be required, and it is normally placed properly so as to cause minimum hazard. However, the vast majority of old rails, broken/rotting sleepers, rotting bags of ballast, spare and broken cable run sections, empty cable drums, piles of rail clips, etc., that litter the line-side are not spares, but simply abandoned.

Bald Rick has the symptoms set out very clearly. I would also add a lack of manpower and funding to the list. What is your cure? Everyone is looking for one. What do you propose?

Adding to what has already been said, available time for working is around 2 hours a night (as is the case for almost all of South London and most main lines on the third rail network), the priority is to complete the essential parts of work, clearing up can wait. There is work going on at multiple locations every night, so there will always be clearing up to do. Particularly at present, when the maintenance teams backs are up against the wall - the amount of faults coming in recently, particularly track faults, has been much higher than normal due to the poor weather.

 

[Deepgreen]

Bald Rick has the symptoms set out very clearly. I would also add a lack of manpower and funding to the list. What is your cure? Everyone is looking for one. What do you propose?

I think it needs a combination of elements - enforcing those existing contracts which demand a proper clear-up, writing future contracts with more stringent requirements for clearing up (and time/resources allowed in possesions to do so), dedicated scrap removal teams to work in possessions (Christmas blockades, etc., would offer scope for wide-ranging efforts), other/same teams to be permitted to operate track-side in traffic hours at certain locations/situations to remove debris which is further from the track (along the lines of the present tree-felling regime which sees work proceeding in traffic hours), greater flexibility from TOCs to allow access and an education programme for contractors/staff regarding the reasons for clearing up as far as possible.

Obviously all this requires funding and the will to do it, but, again, I must point out that it was NR's chief that promised the action, and it would be good to know on what he based his pledge - the railway's operating regime and financial situation were not that different just under a year ago, when he made the speech, after all.

 

[lincolnshire]

Maybe so, but there are some ways of conversing that are more helpful than others. In any case, I don't think anyone is denying the need to have spare kit at places where it would be required, and it is normally placed properly so as to cause minimum hazard. However, the vast majority of old rails, broken/rotting sleepers, rotting bags of ballast, spare and broken cable run sections, empty cable drums, piles of rail clips, etc., that litter the line-side are not spares, but simply abandoned.[/QUOTE]

Very well said, you have been looking out of the train windows then and seen all this junk left behind and have said it politely without the attitude some have on here when someone says something they don,t like.

We all don,t work for Network Rail who look at this forum and have to give the official Network Rail reply to things.