Network Railcard 10am

[mr_jrt]

More of a curiosity than anything else. I'm currently heading to London on an off-peak Thameslink service for a day out. I can use an off-peak ticket as my train reaches London Bridge at 9:45, despite starting much earlier.

However, despite being shown I could use my network railcard discount on Thameslink's journey planner for this specific service, the ticket machine and ticket office staff were adamant it would not be valid as you can't start before 10am. This is what I would have expected, but was surprised by the journey planner offering it to me.

Has buying my ticket in person saved me an accidental penalty fare? I'm presuming the barriers at my origin would have kept me out, so maybe it's just made sure I'm on time.

...why on earth do they have the silly 10am restriction? Surely you just limit the validity to offpeak tickets (or restrict it from anytime tickets)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using 10am is a fairly standard Railcard thing. You can't prevent its use on Anytime tickets because some routes don't have Off Peaks. That said it is possible to implement "Off Peak time or 1000 if there isn't one" (actually 0930) as that's how the Family and Friends works in the South East and the planners do do it!

There are some easements for trains before 1000 on infrequent or awkwardly timed routes but none for Thameslink, as below. Some of these appear to be out of date e.g. there's no 0947 from MKC.

What is the exact journey?

Travel times - Network Railcard

Time and ticket restrictions. Use your Network Railcard in and around London and the South East for up to a third off Off-Peak leisure rail travel.

www.network-railcard.co.uk

Origin Station​ Departure Time​ Service​ Easements apply:​ Aldermaston 09:38 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Althorne (Essex) 09:45 Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations Ascott-U-Wych 09:36 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Ashurst New Forest 09:42 South Western Railway service to Winchester To all destinations Audley End 09.40 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Banbury 09:39 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Battle 09:42 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Beaulieu Road 09:38 South Western Railway service to Winchester To all destinations Bedhampton 09:37 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Bewdyn 08:49 Great Western Railway service to Newbury To all destinations Bishops Stortford 09.58 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Brading 09:25 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations Branksome 09:48 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Broadstairs 09:59 Southeastern service to London St Pancras International To all destinations Bures 09:34 Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey To all destinations Burnham-on-Crouch 09:40 Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations Cambridge 09.11 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Cambridge North 09.20 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Chappel & Wakes Colne 09:40 Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey To all destinations Charlbury 09:41 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Cranbrook 08:37 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Cranbrook 09:39 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Dorchester South 09:33 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Dovercourt 09:30 Greater Anglia service to Manningtree To all destinations Downham Market 09:58 Great Northern service to London Kings Cross To all destinations Elsenham 09:49 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations Evesham 09:35 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Exeter Central 08:28 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Exeter Central 09:30 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Exeter St Davids 08:23 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Exeter St Davids 09:25 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Feniton 08:47 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Great Chesterford 09:34 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations Hanborough 09:48 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Harwich International 09:33 Greater Anglia service to Manningtree To all destinations Harwich Town 09:28 Greater Anglia service to Manningtree To all destinations Hastings 09:29 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Hastings 09:50 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Heyford 09:53 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Hilsea 09:32 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Holton Heath 09:56 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Honeybourne 09:11 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Honiton 09:55 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Hungerford 08:55 Great Western Railway service to Newbury To all destinations Hungerford 09:44 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Kelvedon 09:52 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations Kingham 09:31 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Kings Lynn 09:44 Great Northern service to London Kings Cross To all destinations Kings Sutton 09:45 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Kintbury 09:00 Great Western Railway service to Newbury To all destinations Kintbury 09:49 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Lake 09:17 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations London Liverpool Street 09:48 Greater Anglia service to Braintree To all destinations London Liverpool Street 09:58 Greater Anglia service to Cambridge To all destinations Lymington Pier 09:44 South Western Railway service to Brockenhurst To all destinations Lymington Town 09:46 South Western Railway service to Brockenhurst To all destinations Margate 09:53 Southeastern service to London St Pancras International To all destinations Marks Tey 09:56 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations Midgham 09:35 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Milton Keynes Central 09:47 London Northwestern Railway service to London Euston To all destinations Mistley 09:45 Greater Anglia service to Manningtree To all destinations Moreton (Dorset) 09:39 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Moreton-in-Marsh 09:23 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Newbury 09:20 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Newbury 09:25 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Newbury 09:56 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Newbury Racecourse 09:27 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Newport (Essex) 09:43 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations North Fambridge 09:51 Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations Parkstone 09:45 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Pershore 08:47 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Pinhoe 08:33 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Pinhoe 09:34 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Reading 09:44 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Reading West 09:50 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Rowlands Castle 09:45 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Ryde Esplanade 09:37 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations Ryde St John’s Road 09:33 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations Sandown 09:20 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations Shanklin 09:15 Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head To all destinations Salisbury 09:47 South Western Railway service to Exeter St Davids To all destinations Shelford 09:23 Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street. To all destinations South Woodham Ferrers 09:56 Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations Southminster 09:36 Greater Anglia service to Wickford To all destinations St Leonards Warrior Square 09:32 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations St Leonards Warrior Square 09:53 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Stansted Mountfitchet 09.53 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Stratford 09:55 Greater Anglia service to Braintree To all destinations Sturry 09:58 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Sudbury (Suffolk) 09:27 Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey To all destinations Tackley 09:58 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Thatcham 09:25 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Thatcham 09:31 Great Western Railway service to Newbury To all destinations Theale 09:32 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Theale 09:44 Great Western Railway service to Reading To all destinations Totton 09:47 South Western Railway service to Winchester To all destinations Upwey 09:24 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Wadhurst 09:58 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Wareham 09:53 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Watlington 09:51 Great Northern service to London Kings Cross To all destinations West St Leonards 09:57 Southeastern service to London Charing Cross To all destinations Weymouth 09:20 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Whimple 08:42 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Whimple 09:44 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Whittlesford Parkway 09.30 Greater Anglia service to Shelford Cambs To all destinations Wool 09:45 South Western Railway service to London Waterloo To all destinations Worcester Foregate Street 08:26 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Worcester Shrub Hill 08:38 Great Western Railway service to London Paddington To all destinations Wrabness 09:39 Greater Anglia service to Manningtree To all destinations

 

[Watershed]

More of a curiosity than anything else. I'm currently heading to London on an off-peak Thameslink service for a day out. I can use an off-peak ticket as my train reaches London Bridge at 9:45, despite starting much earlier.

However, despite being shown I could use my network railcard discount on Thameslink's journey planner for this specific service, the ticket machine and ticket office staff were adamant it would not be valid as you can't start before 10am. This is what I would have expected, but was surprised by the journey planner offering it to me.

Has buying my ticket in person saved me an accidental penalty fare? I'm presuming the barriers at my origin would have kept me out, so maybe it's just made sure I'm on time.

...why on earth do they have the silly 10am restriction? Surely you just limit the validity to offpeak tickets (or restrict it from anytime tickets)?

We would need to know the journey in question to understand exactly what is happening. But the basic principle is that, if a journey planner offers you a particular ticket in conjunction with a particular itinerary - the ticket is contractually valid in accordance with the itinerary and you could not lawfully have been issued with a Penalty Fare or otherwise penalised.

Indeed, even if you did use a Network Railcard discounted ticket before 10am in a way that wasn't permitted, this would not be grounds for a Penalty Fare being issued - you would simply have to pay the excess to the undiscounted public fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, even if you did use a Network Railcard discounted ticket before 10am in a way that wasn't permitted, this would not be grounds for a Penalty Fare being issued - you would simply have to pay the excess to the undiscounted public fare.

That's your interpretation. It is very likely that a PF would be issued (or even an MG11) and it would be necessary to put huge effort into getting it rescinded. I do not recommend people try this unless they're a member of the RUK "legal action is fun" club.

 

[Watershed]

That's your interpretation. It is very likely that a PF would be issued (or even an MG11) and it would be necessary to put huge effort into getting it rescinded. I do not recommend people try this unless they're a member of the RUK "legal action is fun" club.

We've had this discussion before; suffice it to say that, if this happened, you would be perfectly entitled to bring an appeal and once this happens, even if the appeal is denied, the TOC's only recourse is to try and bring a civil claim to the value of the PF. Which no TOC appears to be interested in doing.

 

[mr_jrt]

8:37 Brighton to Cambridge, off-peak Brighton to Z1-6. Ahem, I have a screenie, but seems my morning maths failed me. It's offering £20.40, which isn't a third off the normal £27, so no idea how it came to that price

 

[Bletchleyite]

8:37 Brighton to Cambridge, off-peak Brighton to Z1-6. Ahem, I have a screenie, but seems my morning maths failed me. It's offering £20.40, which isn't a third off the normal £27, so no idea how it came to that price

If I try it for tomorrow it correctly shows £27 (then £17.80 after 10am). Strange. Perhaps just a glitch.

 

[Watershed]

8:37 Brighton to Cambridge, off-peak Brighton to Z1-6. Ahem, I have a screenie, but seems my morning maths failed me. It's offering £20.40, which isn't a third off the normal £27, so no idea how it came to that price

I suspect you've searched to one of the Thameslink core stations and haven't checked what ticket it's suggesting.

The £20.40 price is a public rate Off-Peak Day Return to London Thameslink, route not Underground. If you want a Travelcard it'll cost you an extra £6.60 at that time.

 

[mr_jrt]

Ah yes, can see on the right of the screenie it's London Thameslink. NRE's booking engine crashed in the handoff so I had to redo it on Thameslink's direct, probably picked the wrong thing trying to find the travelcard options

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2022 ==

Thanks all! Still think that 10am restriction is silly, though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Still think that 10am restriction is silly, though.

Why? The Network Railcard was introduced as a means of encouraging off peak travel, which midweek would necessarily be after the morning peak, wasn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? The Network Railcard was introduced as a means of encouraging off peak travel, which midweek would necessarily be after the morning peak, wasn't it?

The argument was for it to apply from when Off Peak tickets do. Though you could argue it actually provides a third level, with "off peak" being shoulder peak and "off peak plus NSE" being actual off peak.

 

[mr_jrt]

The main thing is that you could end up on the exact same train, arriving at the same destination at the same time, and your validity is based upon where you started, if you started along the route after ten, you're ok, before, and you're not. Restricting peak travel is the whole point of having offpeak tickets in the first place.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The short version is that the "fixed" 10am restriction (easements notwithstanding!) and introduction of the £13 minimum fare are the only reason the Network Railcard continues to exist. Had South West Trains (as was) had their way, it would have been withdrawn years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The short version is that the "fixed" 10am restriction (easements notwithstanding!) and introduction of the £13 minimum fare are the only reason the Network Railcard continues to exist. Had South West Trains (as was) had their way, it would have been withdrawn years ago.

I thought it was actually Chiltern who wanted rid. But yes, I believe the £13 minimum saved it.

 

[Graham H]

The main thing is that you could end up on the exact same train, arriving at the same destination at the same time, and your validity is based upon where you started, if you started along the route after ten, you're ok, before, and you're not. Restricting peak travel is the whole point of having offpeak tickets in the first place.

Thats right. My local station has an 09:58 departure to London, no easements so card invalid. Three minutes later the train stops at the next station so the card is valid. When I was a lot younger I thought off peak in BR days was often decided on by the trains arrival time especially for London bound trains so an off peak to London from Didcot was available earlier than one to Reading for example. In my case the train doesnt get to London until 11:44 so is hardly peak commuting time. On RTT today the train was 3 mins late so technically I could have got on as I believe the card becomes valid at a specific time regardless of the trains timetable ? Of course I only used London as an example here but I can understand a blanket 10am validity makes simple sense.

 

[miklcct]

I thought it was actually Chiltern who wanted rid. But yes, I believe the £13 minimum saved it.

The £13 minimum makes the Network Railcard effectively a weekend-only railcard, as most short-haul off-peak fares in the London and South East are less than £13.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It is a bit odd. My example on Greater Anglia would be Billericay to Liverpool Street
Before 9.30am Anytime Day Return £26.50
From 9.30am Off-Peak Day Return (Network railcard not valid) £20.10
From 10am Off-Peak Day Return (Network Card valid) £13.25
After 11.30am there is the Super Off-Peak Day Return, with Network railcard £13.00. Presumably it has hit the minimum fare as the undiscounted equivalent is £16.60. If using a Senior Railcard it would be £10.95.

 

[Hadders]

The £13 minimum makes the Network Railcard effectively a weekend-only railcard, as most short-haul off-peak fares in the London and South East are less than £13.

I'm afraid you're wrong on this.

Many short hauil journeys like Stevenage to London, Reading to London and Milton Keynes to London are well worthwhile with a Network Railcard. Before you say these are not short haul consider that the journeys are faster than many within London. The Network Railcard offers a valuable discount on weekdays for these sort of journeys.

 

[swt_passenger]

The £13 minimum makes the Network Railcard effectively a weekend-only railcard, as most short-haul off-peak fares in the London and South East are less than £13.

Really? You’ll get your money back from places such as Winchester once you’ve made 2 return journeys. With the Network Card area extending so far out there’s significant numbers who can make good use of one. Perhaps they’re the weekday market RDG are looking at?

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid you're wrong on this.

Many short hauil journeys like Stevenage to London, Reading to London and Milton Keynes to London are well worthwhile with a Network Railcard. Before you say these are not short haul consider that the journeys are faster than many within London. The Network Railcard offers a valuable discount on weekdays for these sort of journeys.

I guess it's fair to say that the Network Railcard is of little use if you predominantly make journeys within the Zones on weekdays. But there is always the possibility of buying a cheap annual season that qualifies for a Gold Card (e.g. Hatton to Lapworth), and this can also be added to an Oyster.

 

[Titfield]

Well what I do when I go to London from the South Coast is buy an advance (no network card discount) as I travel before 10 am and then buy an offpeak single with network railcard discount for the journey home. I need flexibility for the homeward journey but not the outward.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But there is always the possibility of buying a cheap annual season that qualifies for a Gold Card (e.g. Hatton to Lapworth), and this can also be added to an Oyster.

How much would that cost compared with the £30 outlay needed for a Network Railcard?

 

[Watershed]

How much would that cost compared with the £30 outlay needed for a Network Railcard?

£184 a year at current prices. So clearly, a lot more than the cost of a Network Railcard - but if you're aged between 30-59 and frequently make weekday journeys where the fare is less than £13 (or would be with a third off), it may still be worthwhile.

It's also worth noting that Annual Gold Card discounted tickets can be used from 09:30.

 

[Hadders]

I've got a Hatton to Lapworth Gold Card. Other benefits in addition to no minimum fare:

- Discounted tickets available from 09:30 rather than 10:00 on weekdays
- You can add the discount to a PAYG Oyster card and obtain a discount on off peak PAYG fares and benefit from a discounted off peak daily cap
- The Gold Card area is larger than the Network Railcard area
- You can purchase a railcard for a friend or relative for £10
- Discount available on 1st class tickets

 

[JonathanH]

It is a bit odd. My example on Greater Anglia would be Billericay to Liverpool Street
Before 9.30am Anytime Day Return £26.50
From 9.30am Off-Peak Day Return (Network railcard not valid) £20.10
From 10am Off-Peak Day Return (Network Card valid) £13.25
After 11.30am there is the Super Off-Peak Day Return, with Network railcard £13.00. Presumably it has hit the minimum fare as the undiscounted equivalent is £16.60. If using a Senior Railcard it would be £10.95.

By having multiple steps it segregates the market. One of the reasons why the restriction is 10am is to move some of the crowd who would otherwise take the first off peak service, spreading the loadings.

 

[Haywain]

- You can purchase a railcard for a friend or relative for £10

Or for yourself!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or for yourself!

Before anyone says "but why" it's worth doing it if you travel often on Avanti or LNER, because the Gold Card has no validity on either of those at all.

 

[Hadders]

Or for yourself!

Should've remembered that one as I purchased a £10 Two Together Railcard on which I am one of the named cardholders!

Before anyone says "but why" it's worth doing it if you travel often on Avanti or LNER, because the Gold Card has no validity on either of those at all.

It is rather frustrating and silly that Avanti and LNER don't accept Gold Card discounted tickets between London and Milton Keynes and London and Stevenage.

 

[Haywain]

Before anyone says "but why" it's worth doing it if you travel often on Avanti or LNER, because the Gold Card has no validity on either of those at all.

Or if you want a Two Together or Family Railcard to travel outside the Gold Card area. Or you have a partner who holds a Disabled Railcard but you haven't got anything for travelling alone.