Network Rail Signallers: Strike Action

[jon0844]

It is very easy to make jokes about Bob Crow. I personally can't stand him, having seem him speaking for many years and heard many stories. Now, some of these might not be true, but if even half of them are...

But, this doesn't make the union a bad thing, or suggest members should not strike or take action. I just think that he's the wrong person to lead as he seems to have his own agenda and isn't actually helping the members.

That is unless all the members simply want to screw over management, force renationalisation and then demand 1000% pay rises! Clearly most members aren't out to do this and should be represented by someone that comes over as someone who can be firm, but fair.

You start off being fair, and only use your powers as a last resort. As long as the industry is aware of your power, you don't need to keep showing it off.

Remember when Bob Crow spoke of strike action at the Olympics in 2012? How can someone plan strike action that far in advance? Sadly, I forget the finer details but he definitely did say this back in 2005 when we were awarded the games.

 

[CosherB]

I have to make jokes about Crow because to take a humourless look at the man is a deeply depressing experience. He was on 'Have I Got News for You' a while back. He was well out of his depth - not an ounce of humour in him, no humility or any showing of humanity; nothing much there in fact except blind militancy it seemed.

A very sad man.

 

[Metroland]

Are you Christian Wolmar? Shouldn't that have been a quote from him?!

Guilty as charged. Bad habit of mine posting article contents and placing a link underneath without it being 100% clear.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with what he says. I suspect Bob Crow would argue the RMT is the fastest growing union pretty much in the country, so he's doing a good job.

But I suppose the key difference is between some RMT workers and others, is various cities need the tubes and the overground rail networks and there is a captive consumer base that doesn't have much choice. I'm one of them, I don't have a car and depend on the railways. I nether want to see the railway network pruned because its got overly expensive, nor do I want ever increasing fares.

RMT are very often too trigger happy with strike action, as are ASLEF at times.

TSSA are a pretty moderate union, and it's the one I was in on the railways. Indeed. a lot of people inside the industry dislike the RMT for their tactics because they actually care about the railways and don't want them being the pantomime aunt sally of the unions, the media or others with vested interests.

Obviously the TSSA also balloted for strike action this time, I do think there is some things that need to be resolved on the safety side, but strike action should be a very last resort. I worry about the standard of management when it gets to this stage though, and I don't think its 100% fair to blame ordinary railwaymen and women.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Remember when Bob Crow spoke of strike action at the Olympics in 2012? How can someone plan strike action that far in advance? Sadly, I forget the finer details but he definitely did say this back in 2005 when we were awarded the games.

They plan to take the tubes and the trains for all they are worth during 2012. They would of course argue they are getting the money from private sources, but the truth is, it'll be the tax payer that coughs up.

I really don't think there is any excuse for it, it's really just getting oneself into a position because of the geography of the country and exploiting it for all its worth. Every bit as bad as the private sector fat cats they so despise.

What's worse is the unions are, on the whole, generally a force for good. And action like that just rubbishes the union movement, and leads unsympathetic politicians to make disproportionate anti-union laws making it much harder for people with a serious cause to fight back when they are being exploited or marginalised.

 

[jon0844]

Which union tried to hold the Government to ransom on the Jubilee Line extension for the dome in 1999? Clearly with the need for the line to be open in time for the 2000 celebrations, it was quite obvious that this would be a good time to threaten strike action and get whatever was demanded.

I can definitely see this happening before the Olympics, and that goes for the construction of the Olympic park and village as well as the public transportation.

 

[Wyvern]

I think I second that. I should add that I understand the RMT is increasing its membership by recruiting outside the railway industry - taxi drivers among others - while railway people are becoming disenchanted and letting their memberships lapse.

It isnt that they dont have a number of issues with Network Rail's management; it's that they feel the RMT is totally incompetent.

 

[68000]

Normally I disagree with what Wolmar has to say but in this instance he has it bang on.

He is 100% correct and unfortunately, the RMT members will not see through all this bluster as they are led like lemmings across the cliff face by Crow and company!

 

[TDK]

Accidents are of course never black or white, and it rarely is, all one person's fault or staff, or management.

Take the recent derailment of a passenger train in Cumbria:


- The driver was going too fast to be examining the line.

- The signaller should not have sent the train over the line, did not convey the severity of the track buckle, nor instructed the driver as to the maximum speed.

This in fact looks like it could be down to the driver, if asked to examine the line the driver "MUST" proceed with caution preparing to stop short of any obstruction, clearly this was breached in this case, there is no definitive speed and the signaller will not give a speed unless a broken rail has been identified and then it is 5mph!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know I'm not the first to say it, but its a sad day for the hard won Union Movement. Even a sad day for governance

Agreed, but if the RMT had done their homework first instead of rushing into a ballot that was always going to be questioned regarding allocation the strike would have gone ahaead, no ones fault except the RMT and the man in charge is Bob Crow, I would call for his resignation

 

[Metroland]

Train shouldn't have gone over it at all TDK, part of the signalling general instructions, clause 17. It specifically states that the track needs examination from the Pway.

Then the signaller must stop instruct drivers not to exceed 20mph (or less if the Pway say so). This must be stated to the Driver of each train that is due to pass over the problem track. The adjoining line must also be blocked when trains pass over, just in case.

The driver and signaller of the initial train that hit the track defect were criticised for not coming to a clear understanding, and the signalman underestimated the severity of the defect.

 

[90019]

I have to make jokes about Crow because to take a humourless look at the man is a deeply depressing experience. He was on 'Have I Got News for You' a while back. He was well out of his depth - not an ounce of humour in him, no humility or any showing of humanity; nothing much there in fact except blind militancy it seemed.

Watching that just made me cringe. It was painful to watch at times

 

[jon0844]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8601002.stm

Today accused of 'slurring' union over rail strike

Today presenter John Humphrys has been accused of "slurring" the RMT union in an interview with its leader Bob Crow about its ballot for industrial action.

The Radio 4 host said the High Court's decision to grant an injunction halting a four-day national rail strike "raises suspicions the ballot was rigged".

(For rest, click above link)

 

[GB]

"Rigged" implies a level of complicity in the issue, so unless someone has evidence that the RMT purposely misrepresented the ballot I think the presenter is on shakey ground publicly accusing the union of such tactics.

However that is not to say that the ballot wasnt fundamentally flawed from the outset.

 

[Wyvern]

This in fact looks like it could be down to the driver, if asked to examine the line the driver "MUST" proceed with caution preparing to stop short of any obstruction, clearly this was breached in this case, there is no definitive speed and the signaller will not give a speed unless a broken rail has been identified and then it is 5mph!

I cannot believe that we dont understand the vagaries of jointed rail after nearly two hundred years.

This worries me more:

the increased workload pressure on the track maintainers in the lead up to the derailment, which was a possible contributory factor

If I remember rightly, workload of inspection and maintenance people was also an issue at Grayrigg. Then we are told that there will be no safety implications in reducing staff. Maybe the surplus are among admin staff. What worries me is if NWR instead take on contract people without a deal of railway experience.

 

[CosherB]

Couldn't resist adding this little image to the discussion!

 

[313103]

Couldn't resist adding this little image to the discussion!

Just a shame you couldn't work out that Bob Crow doesnt belong to the Labour Party and that the RMT was expelled from the Labour Party. That is why when a opportunist newspaper whose name i wont reveal lists the Trade Unions given in the region of £78 million pounds to the Labour party you found that the RMT wasn't even mentioned. However what that newspaper didn't mentioned is how much big companies give to the tories. I say what is good for the goose is also good for the gander!

For someone as clever as you Captain, i am surprised you could consider that those two liked each other let alone reminiscing of the good old times. They have never liked each other.

 

[jon0844]

I merely took it as a bit of humour. It's hardly going to change the way I vote (IF I vote!).

Bob Crow seems to be more of a communist, so I am not sure how he fits in with any party.

 

[yorkie]

What's worse is the unions are, on the whole, generally a force for good. And action like that just rubbishes the union movement, and leads unsympathetic politicians to make disproportionate anti-union laws making it much harder for people with a serious cause to fight back when they are being exploited or marginalised.

Yep. The RMT are ridiculously militant and have lost the support of the majority of the general public. They have not said what their safety concerns are and there are organisations in place to monitor NR and determine levels of safety. The railways are far safer than roads. If the RMT were concerned on a level playing field they'd refuse for their members to be taken by taxi on the basis that the roads are unsafe (which they are, in comparison).

I think that Unions are great for helping individuals with problems, and in a way are not powerful enough in that respect. But in some ways they have too much power to cripple the country. They should not be allowed to ruin the reputation of the rail industry, turn people off rail, or cripple the finances of the rail industry to the point where we see road transport replace rail. But that's what they are threatening to achieve if they get their way and the strikes take place

The majority of employees in this country cannot go on strike at all, they simply do not have that 'luxury'. Many more can, but wouldn't because they know that they will just ruin their own jobs. Does he not realise there's a recession on?!

Bob Crow is nothing compared to real Union men like this man, who I'm proud to say I'm actually related to. Bob Crow's grievances are nothing compared to what went on in the 19th Century.

 

[ungreat]

I have to laugh

For all of you,through no fault of your own who have been conditioned by the the media to blame unions(and yes,there are a LOT of you)have you ever considered the "two sides to every story" scenario? A union has great difficulty arranging a strike nowadays,and it IS a last resort.
Ever thought that for once,management and its failings,and unwillingness to listen to its workers might be key?

You lot were quite willing to attack the FCC drivers over not working their DAYS OFF a few months ago.Would you work your days off?

I suspect selfishness on your part as well..oooh,my train is cancelled,must go nuts and not plan ahead even though I knew it was coming..dont accuse the RMT of something you arent being as well,when it is simply not so.

Flame time,by the usual media believers/non union members/idiots/spoiling for a scrap/trolls/wannabe rail staff/nerds/turn up 2 secs before train leaves commuters/etc etc

Sorry for the rant,but hey,so sick of armchair experts on rail relations via staff/management
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bob Crow is nothing compared to real Union men like this man, who I'm proud to say I'm actually related to. Bob Crow's grievances are nothing compared to what went on in the 19th Century.

If we didnt have ****s and bankers in charge still Bob Crow would have no reason to exist..we do and he does..rail managers want machines,not people.

 

[Bedpan]

Just putting my four pennyworth in with three comments, although I haven't read all the way through this thread, and I don't work for the railway, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong, or even shoot me down in flames.....

1) I was a member of Amicus (now Unite) till I was made redundant in 2005, and although I haven't paid any subscriptions in all of that time, I still get sent voting forms from time to time. I don't know if this is common across the union movement but if it is, the RMT ballot was no more rigged than anybody else's.

2) Bob Crow has IMO has made a bit of an idiot of himself by harping on about "accident after accident". Sounds like he's been reading the Daily Mail or Express too much. I have always wondered what effect the speed restrictions imposed across the network following the Hatfield accident had on the Health and Safety of the population at large....people having heart attacks, or just tripping up, whilst rushing to make connections or make get to appointments on time due to the late arrival of their trains, or travelling by road instead and being involved in a road accident as a result. In my area the roads have been in an appalling state with potholes following the winter frosts and snow, and accidents and injuries have occurred as a result, but I haven't heard anybody suggest a blanket speed restriction pending repairs.

3) I don't know enough about the signallers dispute to comments on the rights and wrongs of striking, but isn't one area of disagreement the fact that Network Rail want to do away with 12 hour shifts which would mean that signallers would have to work more than three days a week? I know if I work for a 12 hour I start to get tired in the last few hours - if for instance I drive for 12 hours I'd say the longer I was driving, the more likely my concentration was to wander. So...what rationale does Bob Crow have for supporting this if he wants us to believe he's on a safety mission due to "accident after accident"?

 

[CosherB]

For someone as clever as you Captain, i am surprised you could consider that those two liked each other let alone reminiscing of the good old times. They have never liked each other.

I think you miss the point, RM. BTW, isn't that a bus in your sig? Are you on the right forum?

 

[GB]

The majority of employees in this country cannot go on strike at all, they simply do not have that 'luxury'. Many more can, but wouldn't because they know that they will just ruin their own jobs. Does he not realise there's a recession on?!

"Luxury"?? What are you on about Yorkie:roll:

 

[Metroland]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rq2kx/Profile_Bob_Crow/

 

[Barn]

"Luxury"?? What are you on about Yorkie:roll:

Thanks to government intervention and TUPE, an employee of NR or a franchised TOC really doesn't care if his employer collapses, because he'll just be given another. In other industries, workers have a basic interest in keeping their companies afloat, hence limiting their striking potential in a recession.

 

[Metroland]

Indeed, like bank workers, in practice railway workers have no moral hazard because the companies will always be bailed out, or even if the TOCs go bust the workers move to the new company.

With most companies, especially small ones, the firm will simply go bust and the workers laid off.

Therefore it could be said that certain groups have a luxury of striking.

 

[Geezertronic]

One thing I have always wondered is do the strikers get paid whilst they are on strike? If not, do the Union fulfil all or part of the lost wages? I am just wondering if it is financially viable for the average Joe to go on strike?

 

[Metroland]

No they don't get paid. Indeed, for the marginal percentage increase in pay, it's questionable that going on strike is financially worthwhile in the first place.

Some of the TOCs get paid compensation for workers going on strike though, and NR would have to pay compensation to TOCs if it went on strike.

 

[jon0844]

I have to laugh

For all of you,through no fault of your own who have been conditioned by the the media to blame unions(and yes,there are a LOT of you)have you ever considered the "two sides to every story" scenario? A union has great difficulty arranging a strike nowadays,and it IS a last resort.
Ever thought that for once,management and its failings,and unwillingness to listen to its workers might be key?

You lot were quite willing to attack the FCC drivers over not working their DAYS OFF a few months ago.Would you work your days off?.

That's unfair, and more importantly, untrue. If you look around here, you'll find that people WERE supportive of the FCC drivers. People were blaming FCC management, not the drivers.

But, you can't expect support forever. It's easy to say that people should plan ahead - but how long can people avoid doing things, like going to work, or going out after work, before they stop being so sympathetic? You have to realise this, given you're not just out to hurt the 'evil management' but everyone who uses the service you provide.

I think you've been too conditioned by the union, because I'd like to know how strike action was considered a last resort, or how it was so quickly decided upon (suggesting the RMT seems to have no trouble arranging a strike).

Unlike the FCC drivers who, I believe did the right thing and got a result eventually, the RMT has gone for all-out strike action, even though more votes asked for action short of striking... so why wasn't that done first?

Are you telling me there was nothing the union could have done before going for a strike?

Bob has been around for years, and he hasn't changed - recession or not. He has his agenda and is using naive members to get his way. Sometimes I wonder if he really does want renationalisation, or if he's a one trick pony and can only argue on two points; private sector greed and safety. Either way, he's not a very nice person. I doubt he cares, given that he's done rather well from it all.

 

[CarterUSM]

To be perfecty frank, the public generally do not care. The only thing they care about is getting from A-B regardless. I still do not understand all the Bob Crow negativity. He did not call the strike, his members did. And to be fair he is a real union man, he backs his members! I do not particularly care for him myself, he is no jimmy knapp, but he certainly gets peoples backs up which to some is quite a skill! Also, you cannot really equate the struggles of yesteryear by pioneers like Thomas Hepburn(you should be very proud indeed yorkie!) with todays as everything has changed so much socially, financially and in legality. The bottom line is, nobody wants to be inconvenienced and because they are or will be, it's always going to be the staff/unions fault, not to mention a full page advert of spin by the company/ management for the delectation of the public! I've never had the pleasure of sitting in on negotiations between a company and the union, but I could imagine it would change a few peoples minds. I have seen, however, documents relating to another dispute that had to be garnered by the freedom of information act, and the employees have been stitched up from day 1 all the while being told 'everything will be okay' and, 'nothing will change' or the classic 'no decision has been made as yet'! Sickening, absolutely sickening! Furthermore, I consider striking being a 'luxury' perhaps a bit of a misnomer, I think, 'choice', or maybe 'right' would describe it better. It's far from luxurious not getting paid.

 

[jon0844]

I think it's a pretty easy 'skill' to get someone's back up! If I told you to f*** o** then I'd get your back up. Does that make me a strong person?!

I'd say a strong union leader is one that commands respect by both sides. Someone you know is 100% representing his membership and will do what it takes. That type of person probably never has to resort to strike action in the first place. Management would know not to mess around, especially as that union would have total support from the media and public, which in turn would lead to pressure from shareholders.

I reckon members could get more from another leader; but it's only my opinion and clearly isn't shared by others. It doesn't matter though as I'm a member of a different union so what I think will never affect you anyway.

 

[Metroland]

To be perfecty frank, the public generally do not care. The only thing they care about is getting from A-B regardless.

A lot of people in cities (especially London, Leeds and Glasgow) have no choice but to use the railways, because its the only way they can get to and from work pretty quickly and spend time with their families at home. London, in particular, cannot function without a railway, with over 80% of people arriving in the central area by train.

I don't own a car, and if the nationwide strike went ahead its pretty impossible to get around, alternatives are either too slow or infrequent, or simply not available.

Business depends hugely on rail, especially between the major conurbations. (modal shore is often 30-70% of city-city travel)

Strikes very often mean not just having to make alternative arrangements, but cancelling them all together or even being out of pocket.

Certainly last time there was a national strike, central London was almost deserted. I was there, having taken one of the few trains running in. Every pub and restaurant you talked to, were complaining about how much money they were losing.

So if people feel negative about strikes, they have good reason to. Because it's really nothing to do with them and not of their making.

As an enthusiast I'm concerned about:

1) Ever increasing fares
2) Ever increasing safety requirements that puts rail at a disadvantage against road
3) Expanding the network- I'm on here busy promoting it for free, others are busy grabbing as much as they can.

After the 1955 strike lots of traffic moved to road, and really set in place the Beeching cuts. After years of an expanding railway, we don't want to go back there.

 

[CosherB]

Strikes very often mean not just having to make alternative arrangements, but cancelling them all together or even being out of pocket.

Certainly last time there was a national strike, central London was almost deserted. I was there, having taken one of the few trains running in. Every pub and restaurant you talked to, were complaining about how much money they were losing.

So if people feel negative about strikes, they have good reason to. Because it's really nothing to do with them and not of their making.

Metro, it's precisely those points I made very early on in this thread. I wonder if those that vehemently opposed my view back then (accusing me of not caring about rail safety) still do after all the posts since.