Network Rail Signallers: Strike Action

[Metroland]

ok then guys work out how many signallers work in these signal boxes during a 12hr shift now during the hours of disruption if it goes ahead just to give you a idea from paddington to reading 11 signalman as a guess to safely operate now do you think there is enough managers to cover that for 4hrs at the am peak and pm peak if any train is involved in a safety related incident caused by a manager then the drivers union will become invoved

I might be wrong in some of these, but far as I know

ECML:

Kings Cross: 5 positions (NX panel), Peterborough 2 positions (NX panel), Doncaster 4 positions (NX panel), York 2 workstations for ECML, 3 for Yorkshire (IECC,) Tyneside 3 workstations (IECC), Edinburgh 6 workstations including connections (IECC), Morpeth, Tweedmouth, Alnmouth NX panels

GWML:

Slough: 2 workstations (IECC) plus 2 panel positions (NX panel), Reading 3/4 positions (NX panel), Swindon B 1 position (IECC), Swindon PSB 2 positions (NX panel), Bristol 5 positions (NX panel), Exeter 3 positions (NX panel), Plymouth 1 position (NX panel). Newport, Cardiff and Port Talbot plus S Wales signalling centre, not sure 2-3 each, Oxford 1 position (NX panel), mech boxes at Banbury North and South, Westbury 2 positions (NX Panel).

Chiltern:

Marylebone 2 workstations (IECC), Leamington 1 position (Westcad), West Mids signalling centre 3 workstations (IECC).

MML:

West Hampstead 5 positions including Westcad (NX panel/Westcad), Leicester 2 positions (NX panel), Trent 2/3 positions (NX panel), Derby 3 postions (NX panel), Sheffield 3 postions (NX panel), East mids signalling centre (IECC), 2 positions.

WCML:

Wembley main line 3 positions (NX panel), Watford 1 position (NX panel), Rugby 5 workstations (IECC), Bletchley 1 position (NX panel), Stoke 4 workstations (IECC), Macclesfield SB 1 position (TCB lever frame), Crewe 2 positions (NX panel), Manchester South 2 workstations (IECC), Lever frames at Stockport, Crewe coal yard and Basford hall, Manchester Picadily 3 positions (NX panel), Winsford SB 1 position (NX panel), then various mech boxes to Liverpool, Warrington, 3 positions (NX panel), Preston 3 positions (NX panel), Carlisle 3 positions (NX panel), Motherwell 4 positions (NX panel), West Scotland signalling centre, several workstations (IECC), Birmingham NS 3 positions (NX panel), Wolverhampton 2 positions (NX panel), Stafford SBs (2 x lever frames).

GEML: Liverpool street 8 workstations (IECC), Colchester, not sure if its all Westcad yet, but several workstations, Cambridge 3 positions (NX panel).

LTS: Upminster 5 workstations (IECC)

Southern:

Victoria I think is 8 positions (NX panel), London bridge is 5 positions (NX panel), Ashford IECC 8 workstations (IECC), Woking 2 positions (NX panel), Wimbledon and Three Bridges are about 4-5 positions each (NX panel), Basingstoke 2 positions (NX panel), Salisbury 1 positions (NX panel), Eastleigh 3 positions (NX panel), Brockenhurst 1 position (NX panel), Bournemouth 1 position (IECC Siemens type thing), mech boxes at Wareham, Poole, Wool, Dorchester 1 position (NX panel), Havant 2 workstations (IECC Semiens thing), mech boxes on Pompey line, Guildford 2 positions (NX panel), Feltham 3 positions (NX panel), and no end of mech boxes in SE.

Cross country: Gloucester 3 positions (NX panel)

Then you have loads of other lines including suburban networks around Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, the North London line, Trans pennine lines, secondary interurban routes, and vast amounts of mech boxes on secondary lines, RETB, other PSBs at Chester, Tees, Scunthorpe, Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee, Ridgemont, smaller OCR/IFR/NX panels and Westcads in smaller signalboxes, IECCs at Yoker and Sandhills, so on and so forth.


On top of that lot meal break relief and supervisors in many places that handle a lot of the communications.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

or in any degraded working?

What driver will accept instructions from a temporary manager signaller - and at whose risk?

Most will be signalling managers who sign these places anyway and non-union, strikebreakers, but the odd few might be trained up quickly and work under instruction from the ops side. Last time there were a few incidents covered up, I personally wouldn't fancy my chances driving a train or being a passenger, because it's extremely easy to screw up. There was several cases of 2 trains in a section and point run throughs last time, lots of near misses at level crossings as people were instructed to cross in front of trains, wrong routings and various irregularities and that was with a fraction of the service.

 

[jon0844]

Well, all the money from the road tax goes into the trasury, all the tax on fuel goes into the treasury and only 2% of any duty goes back into the roads, the biggest fat cat is Mr.Brown. What safety systems have the Government got in place for the roads? Nowhere near as much for the railways.

If we look at road work, rather than spend on the roads in general, it would seem that compared to almost anywhere in the world, we are way ahead on health & safety - especially on motorways.

It's quite amazing to see how people work on road repairs abroad. Here, it takes a good hour or two to set up cones and signs even more the tiniest of overnight work.

Is there a similar union for the people who work on the roads and how vocal are they? I can't imagine the answer is very, given that I can't remember a time when there was a refusal to work. Perhaps they just get paid too much!

 

[turbo mick]

I remember the last time the signallers had industrial action and not many trains were running it just shows the amount of signallers there are throughout the network that we rely on to run trains safely.Its always the staff are made to look bad and then like yesterday network rail documenting in the local papers to get the public on there side its not our fault but they are the ones trying to make cut backs.

 

[TDK]

Signallers will be in their boxes, drivers ready to drive, trains ready to roll, but nothing will move for 4 days in Hull, Scarborough, Grimsby, Barrow, Harrogate, Whitby, Middlesborough and much more.
This is a catastrophe.
Northern and TPE have simply given up trying to run any trains at all between late Monday and Saturday morning yet staff will be available and paid to work from mid-morning until just before six.

Where is the fighting spirit to operate some sort of service on all lines for at least part of the day?
A handful of trains running shuttles would at least enable people to get around.
The south seems to be fairing better than the north where it seems they have simply given up on most of the network.

The train operating companies will get a payout if the train is cancelled so it's no skin off their nose not running the service. They haven't given up, they are not as customer aware as the South
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

or in any degraded working?

What driver will accept instructions from a temporary manager signaller - and at whose risk?

How will the driver actually know his is communicating with a Manager signaller, at the risk of NR or course, a driver will follow instructions from a manager working the box as they wouldn't know or question if the signaller is competent or not unless discrepencies are detected in the communiacations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most will be signalling managers who sign these places anyway and non-union, strikebreakers, but the odd few might be trained up quickly and work under instruction from the ops side. Last time there were a few incidents covered up, I personally wouldn't fancy my chances driving a train or being a passenger, because it's extremely easy to screw up. There was several cases of 2 trains in a section and point run throughs last time, lots of near misses at level crossings as people were instructed to cross in front of trains, wrong routings and various irregularities and that was with a fraction of the service.

That is an incorrect statement, if a non union member does not go to work he/she could be dismissed and is not a strike breaker, only if a union member goes to work against their unions industrial action then they become a strike breaker, it is like if ASLEF called a drivers strike and the RMT didn't there should not be any anomosity between the workers and strikers and the RMT members should not be deemed as strike breakers.

Where is your evidence of all these incidents? I do notbelieve that they all occured and I feel this information is incorrect, produce the evidence with such statements or do not post them as these are all serious incidents.

 

[radamfi]

I've been following the BA strike on various forums and I have come across a lot of cabin crew who are going to work and are very much against the strike. Presumably there are some Network Rail staff reading this who feel the same and it would be interesting to read similar posts from them.

 

[Metroland]

That is an incorrect statement, if a non union member does not go to work he/she could be dismissed and is not a strike breaker, only if a union member goes to work against their unions industrial action then they become a strike breaker, it is like if ASLEF called a drivers strike and the RMT didn't there should not be any anomosity between the workers and strikers and the RMT members should not be deemed as strike breakers.

Where is your evidence of all these incidents? I do notbelieve that they all occured and I feel this information is incorrect, produce the evidence with such statements or do not post them as these are all serious incidents.

Not an incorrect statement, it's the way you read things. I'm talking about people in the RMT who decide not to strike and go to work - there will be a few I suspect.

You can believe the information is incorrect if you like, I was involved in the 1994 despute and I know they are correct. Some were also publicised in the news media at the time. And I will publicise what I like in the public interest thanks.

 

[Multiple Unit]

I say stop moaning and get on with the Job you are paid to do, Also it looks like every Bank or Public Holiday there is an excuse to disarupt the Rail Services in one way or another no wonder the Railways are in debt.

Also they say a train every two Hours Between Crewe & Glasgow this if Im right I should be able to get from Warrington Bank Quay to Wigan.

 

[Metroland]

Network Rail will this afternoon go to the High Court seeking an injunction to prevent a national rail strike.

The company has uncovered what it believes to be scores of inaccuracies and deficiencies with the signallers ballot leading the company to conclude in its papers to the RMT that it had ' manifestly failed to comply with the requirements of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act of 1992'.

The signallers vote for strike action was very close with just 112 of the 4,556 balloted needing a different outcome to change the results from 'yes' to no'. The inaccuracies and discrepancies uncovered by the company impact upon almost 300 votes or potential votes

Robin Gisby, director of operations and customer services, said: "We believe we have uncovered scores of inaccuracies and discrepancies in the RMT's signallers ballot that in our view, makes it invalid.

"We want to find a negotiated settlement to this dispute and talks continue but we have a responsibility to the entire country to head off this strike and let people enjoy their Easter break."

These inaccuracies include:

* 11 signal boxes have been balloted by the RMT that do not exist - most have been closed for years
o For example, RMT balloted members at Chalford signal box, near Gloucester, closed in 1965/6. It also balloted members at East Usk signal box, Newport, that burnt down in April 2009

* 67 locations have been balloted where the numbers of RMT members exceeds the total number of employees that work there
o For example, we have three employees at South Tottenham, the RMT asked 11 members to vote. We have 24 employees at Crewe and the RMT invited 33 members to vote

* 26 workplaces (such as Rugby signal box) amounting to almost 100 employees, have been completely missed thereby giving RMT members at these locations no opportunity to vote
* 12 locations were balloted where there are no operations staff at all and thus were ineligible to vote

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/content/Detail.aspx?ReleaseID=5116&NewsAreaID=2

 

[Greenback]

There seems to be a problem with the records kept by unions. This is not the first time an employer has sought an injunction because membership records, on which the ballot is based, were not up to date.

 

[CosherB]

I've been following the BA strike on various forums and I have come across a lot of cabin crew who are going to work and are very much against the strike. Presumably there are some Network Rail staff reading this who feel the same and it would be interesting to read similar posts from them.

The big difference is that the BA strikers are turkeys voting for christmas. BA is already in financial trouble, largely because its cost base is too high becuase the industry has changed from a high-fare scenario supporting many cabin crew per plane, to a low fare scenario with minimum cabin service. This change has been brought about by airline customers voting with their feet to fly with lower cost airlines instead of full fare airlines.

So in order to stay in business, BA has to bring its costs more in line with those of the low cost airlines. So fewer cabin crew per plane, and bye bye to silly salaries; the glory days are over in the airline industry.

Many cabin staff can see that this is not to their advantage, but is a fact of life. If BA are paying significantly more to its cabin staff than is the competition, that has to change in a competitive environment. Some, however, are unrealistic enough to think that if they go on strike, they can somehow return the airline world to the glory days. In fact, by going on strike, they make the situation worse for BA; many of their potential passengers, not wishing to get stranded by a strike, have booked with airlines competing with BA.

Some cabin crew realise it is stupid to strike, and are working normally as they'd rather have a job that pays industry standard wages than no job at all. Many pilots and other BA staff have voluteered to do cabin staff duties as they would lose their jobs too if BA goes under.

None of these personal risks apply to NR strikers. Most rail customers cannot take their business elsewhere (but freight ones might - and won't come back!). That's one reason why this proposed strike is immoral.

 

[Metroland]

I generally am in agreement, not withstanding the point about safety, and who does take flak if something goes wrong. That's a very difficult circle to square.

It's really up to members of the public to pressurise their MPs to ban strikes. There is possibly a good case for essential workers in Transport, Utilities, Emergency services and certain officials. If there is enough public pressure they will be banned. If there is not, they won't be.

At the end of the day, the power is all in the hands of the public, they can boycott any company they like and get rid of them, including any media outlet, vote in and out who they like, anything they choose.

This is why everyone should be interested in politics.

 

[CosherB]

I generally am in agreement, not withstanding the point about safety, and who does take flak if something goes wrong. That's a very difficult circle to square.

It's really up to members of the public to pressurise their MPs to ban strikes. There is possibly a good case for essential workers in Transport, Utilities, Emergency services and certain officials. If there is enough public pressure they will be banned. If there is not, they won't be.

At the end of the day, the power is all in the hands of the public, they can boycott any company they like and get rid of them, including any media outlet, vote in and out who they like, anything they choose.

This is why everyone should be interested in politics.

Absolutely correct, Metro, but it won't happen. We Brits are a buch of sheep; not for nothing is a famous Brit saying "mustn't grumble" so widespread. There is no nation like the Brits for doing what we are told and bowing down to authority - it comes from our deeply engrained class sytem, and people being expected to 'know their place'. The French for sure would not have put up with all the infringements on our civil liberties that New Labour have introduced in the last 13 years.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

These inaccuracies include:

* 11 signal boxes have been balloted by the RMT that do not exist - most have been closed for years
* 67 locations have been balloted where the numbers of RMT members exceeds the total number of employees that work there

These quoted "inaccuracies" are the "technicalities" I'd referred to.

We should be clear that the ballot was of union members. Members may have been moved to other locations/depots by their employers but remained members. It becomes a "technicality" if a voting member has been transferred to another location but has not updated the union's records with that transfer.

 

[Metroland]

CS: Well that would be the problem. There are elements of society that expect something for nothing, really just don't engage in anything but looking at busts on page 3 of certain newspapers and think what's going on with coronation street is more important that what's going on with their civil liberties, let companies get away with bad practice and so on.

I do personally think there is a good case for independent arbitration like the police with certain workers. If you don't like it, leave.

As a collective, we get exactly what we deserve.

 

[royaloak]

I say stop moaning and get on with the Job you are paid to do, Also it looks like every Bank or Public Holiday there is an excuse to disarupt the Rail Services in one way or another no wonder the Railways are in debt.

Also they say a train every two Hours Between Crewe & Glasgow this if Im right I should be able to get from Warrington Bank Quay to Wigan.

How is next Tuesday a bank/ public holiday?

So you think that people should turn up for work to be told sorry your box is closing and although you are senior to and more suitable for a position somewhere else we are going to employ somebody off the street and make you redundant, but as we have decided not to comply with the PTR&R agreements you wont get any redundancy payments either.

Rosters are for local agreement, provided it is the roster that NR have decided you will work.
If you and your colleagues are happy working 3x 12 hour shifts and NR decide that you are to start working 4.5x 8 hour shifts (without any meaningful negotiations) how would you feel?

As for your " stop moaning and get on with the Job you are paid to do" that's what the signallers want to do, but NR keep moving the goal posts!

 

[GB]

I say stop moaning and get on with the Job you are paid to do

Why dont you read the whole thread before wading in with such a blank statement.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The application by Network Rail to declare the strike unlawful has been delayed and will not now be heard until tomorrow, Thursday, at 10am.

(Seems to leave the RMT one less day to prepare its rebuttal.)

Reuters report that the delay is in response to requests by RMT lawyers : http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE62U19V20100331

 

[TDK]

Not an incorrect statement, it's the way you read things. I'm talking about people in the RMT who decide not to strike and go to work - there will be a few I suspect.

You can believe the information is incorrect if you like, I was involved in the 1994 despute and I know they are correct. Some were also publicised in the news media at the time. And I will publicise what I like in the public interest thanks.

You still haven't produced any evidence to back up your allegations!

You also mention Non union strikebreakers, maybe you should have said RMT strikebreakers then all could understand you meaning!!!

 

[CosherB]

ROYAL OAK.

You're not man enough, then, I take it? :roll:

I think you've got the wrong poster (you do seem a bit confused about many things, so no surprise there). I've already said it's thousands a year dead on the roads, 1 passenger death in the last 5 years on rail.

Do try to keep up!

And would you please answer my question in my post above? Or do you now realise there were no errors in my posts? If so, be man enough to admit it.

CS

 

[Metroland]

You still haven't produced any evidence to back up your allegations

No, and I'm not going to provide any evidence on a public forum. I keep a good deal to myself exactly what goes on, this is not the time or the place. That's all I'm prepared to say on the matter.

 

[royaloak]

Go away Captain, your boring me!

 

[Maxfly]

How is next Tuesday a bank/ public holiday?

So you think that people should turn up for work to be told sorry your box is closing and although you are senior to and more suitable for a position somewhere else we are going to employ somebody off the street and make you redundant, but as we have decided not to comply with the PTR&R agreements you wont get any redundancy payments either.

Rosters are for local agreement, provided it is the roster that NR have decided you will work.
If you and your colleagues are happy working 3x 12 hour shifts and NR decide that you are to start working 4.5x 8 hour shifts (without any meaningful negotiations) how would you feel?

As for your " stop moaning and get on with the Job you are paid to do" that's what the signallers want to do, but NR keep moving the goal posts!

Regarding someone being more senior and suitable, more suitable yes...more senior no. As i have said just because someone has been in the job longer does not neccesarly mean they are better at the job. Not for a minute saying all long termers are rubbish, far from it in fact!! But those who just coast along and some who quite frankly scare the crap outa me, personally I do not see why that sort of siggie should get a job over someone newer but better suited to the job.

With the roasters, this seems to be different things in different areas. Though NMR cannot impose a roster at an existing location they are being funny buggers sa they really do not want 12 hr rosters and at lot of the time it falls back to a fail to agree. They are spouting rubbish about the fatigue index which imo is something that can be massaged to suit whoever is doing it!! Having done 12 hour working for many years now and before i started in the railway i can honestly say i feel far fresher at the end of a 12hr shift as oppoed to an 8 hr, perverse maybe but thats me

 

[CosherB]

Go away Captain, your boring me!

A mouse, through and through. Hasn't the guts to face what he posted. :roll:

 

[the sniper]

Absolutely correct, Metro, but it won't happen. We Brits are a buch of sheep; not for nothing is a famous Brit saying "mustn't grumble" so widespread. There is no nation like the Brits for doing what we are told and bowing down to authority - it comes from our deeply engrained class sytem, and people being expected to 'know their place'. The French for sure would not have put up with all the infringements on our civil liberties that New Labour have introduced in the last 13 years.

Isn't this post totally at odds with your anti-strike stance? You moan about Brits being a bunch of sheep with a 'mustn't grumble' ethos, yet surely people who strike are doing totally the opposite, they're not 'doing what they are told and bowing to authority', they're taking a stand for what they believe in, not allowing themselves to be pushed around!

You've stated numerous times that workers should in effect 'put up and shut up', but now you appear to advocate everyone rising up against the machine?

Also, funny you should mention the French. You may admire them for standing up for their civil liberties, but surely you hate them for also regularly practising their right to withdraw labour?

 

[TDK]

No, and I'm not going to provide any evidence on a public forum. I keep a good deal to myself exactly what goes on, this is not the time or the place. That's all I'm prepared to say on the matter.

If thats the case you shouldn't have mentioned the incidents in the first place on a public forum as without evidence to back them up it is pointless, I am not having a go here and no doubt there may be some truth in the allegations however I keep an open mind on the posts I read here and have noticed a load of BS posted. We will leave this disscussion as is and I stronly feel that allegations of that nature should really be kept off the public forums as mentioned in my previous post.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A mouse, through and through. Hasn't the guts to face what he posted. :roll:

Captain, I feel you get pleasure in winding people up? Some of your posts are logical and others like this are pathetic.

 

[Metroland]

Fair enough.

I think you will find everything I have mentioned is in the public domain: several national newspapers carried stories last time (I think the Independent was one), certainly Central TV did a headline story of an incident near Banbury, there was bits also on at least one national news TV channel.

The other stuff is more world of mouth and wouldn't be a good idea to put on a forum with nobody able to defend themselves.

Obviously it was Railtrack at the time, and not Network Rail.

Anything that is not public domain (and even a few things that are) involving specific incidents I don't talk about and have never talked about it outside close friends and family, at least to a degree locations and individuals can be identified.

 

[CosherB]

Isn't this post totally at odds with your anti-strike stance? You moan about Brits being a bunch of sheep with a 'mustn't grumble' ethos, yet surely people who strike are doing totally the opposite, they're not 'doing what they are told and bowing to authority', they're taking a stand for what they believe in, not allowing themselves to be pushed around!

You've stated numerous times that workers should in effect 'put up and shut up', but now you appear to advocate everyone rising up against the machine?

Also, funny you should mention the French. You may admire them for standing up for their civil liberties, but surely you hate them for also regularly practising their right to withdraw labour?

You're confusing two seperate issues; the moraliy of some strikes, and public apathy.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Captain, I feel you get pleasure in winding people up? Some of your posts are logical and others like this are pathetic.

Not at all TDK. Royal Oak publically accused me of posting facts which are wrong (I take great care not to do that). When challenged to substantiate that accusation, he fails to do so - or to withdraw his accusation.

If you think it is 'pathetic' of me to follow up on that, then we inhabit different planets.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The Hearing of the application for an injunction has been listed in the Court lists for tomorrow (Thursday) morning. As I said yesterday (when we expected it to be heard THIS morning), then anyone with some time free tomorrow can go and listen - our Courts are public.
I would only recommend this for someone with patience and an appreciation of the slow pace at which proceedings take.

Its in the Royal Palace of Justice in The Stand, London, in Court No 16. That's upstairs in the main building.
It is lised as "Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd v The National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers"
The Judge will be Mrs Justice Sharp.
I wish I could attend but I have a full day tomorrow.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Interesting thread to read.

As is usually the case with such things, those who work in the railway industry feel able to justify a strike and those who do not are unable to justify it.

I think enough has been said regarding whether it is right or wrong so I shall say this.

A strike is entirely damaging to everyone concerned.

The passengers, who already suffer a fair extent from Britain's railways, get yet another slap in the face when all they want to do is get on with their lives.

The companies involved lose a pot load of money, as does the government. Let's think about high fares and taxes for a sec and wonder where that money goes and how the companies and government then go about retrieving it.

The staff open themselves to a great deal of anger from the general public as well as adding further collateral damage to what they already see as a bad situation. For example, BA staff strike due to job losses, BA lose £7m a day, fares goes up, job numbers become even more of a squeeze, BA staff lose all their travel perks and face the sack.

Who wins? Nobody.

We are in serious danger of becoming French - striking whenever someone isn't happy. Dangerous place to be, France.....

 

[royaloak]

So you agree with management changing work practises and contracts WITHOUT CONSULTATION OR NEGOCIATION when it suits them then.