Network Rail Signallers: Strike Action

[GB]

It has been announced that 54% of those that have voted have voted "yes" to strike action and 71% of voters have voted for "action short of strike".

Lets see what happens.

 

[Metroland]

Not a lot, I shouldn't think, it's hardly a ringing endorsement of a strike. A lot of signalling staff are TSSA anyway.

Anyone know what the dispute is about exactly, from my limited research it involved changes to T3 possession arrangements?

 

[CarterUSM]

That is correct metroland, from speaking to a signalman recently, there is also roster disagreements, i.e being imposed upon them, and also problems with PT and R arrangements.

 

[Mojo]

Here's a letter from Network Rail, courtesy of the Eye.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIki7YXUW...Z0v6Hg/s1600-h/A+letter+from+Iain+Coucher.jpg

 

[Metroland]

It's impossible to comment really, without knowing the exact details. I *heard* that they wanted to get rid of the requirement for detonators with T3 possessions, this to save someone being booked on purely to go and put them out - really because NR has been ordered to save a lot of money.

Assuming that is the case, that would be fine if there are systems to protect against human error (TC locks, trackside warnings, GSM radio?) - which is really what the detonators are about. I know of at least one occasion where a 1500 ton freight train entered a T3 possession at 75mph, because a semi-automatic signal wasn't keyed back. Really because the person involved, who was looking after nearly 70 route miles, and was busy with several phone calls and other trains, not to mention in charge of gangs of handsignallers was distracted. If wasn't for the detonators would have killed several track workers - already a dangerous occupation. The person involved was near to retirement and was paid off, but if anyone had been killed would have faced a manslaughter charge.

NR rail may have done a safety assessment and found new improved ways of working, although the ORR are quite concerned.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9986

 

[CarterUSM]

That is also correct. They do want to dispense with detonator protection at these possessions. I have no documentation other than from speaking to a signalman though.

 

[Hampshire Unit]

Not a lot, I shouldn't think, it's hardly a ringing endorsement of a strike. A lot of signalling staff are TSSA anyway.

The Majority of Signallers and Maintenance staff are RMT.

Here is a link to look at which just about explains the reasons for the dispute.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/vi...e_Strikes_Leading_To_Easter_Travel_Disruption

 

[CosherB]

That Bob Crowe... he's sooo 1970s.:roll:

 

[313103]

That Bob Crowe... he's sooo 1970s.:roll:

Didnt realise that the RMT had over 14,000 members who were named Bob CROW'E' But why let facts get in the way of cheap shot.:roll:

 

[CarterUSM]

If I was a signalman, i'd be pretty worried about the attacks on my promotion, transfer, redundancy and resettlement agreement. It's quite a fair agreement and to lose it would be tantamount to your contract being a blank bit of paper on which network rail can write whatever they like. The scottish signallers won this battle a couple of years ago, and I hope it is won again. It's not about getting better pay and conditions, it's about keeping what they already have! With regards to taking away detonator protection, i'm not sure about it, it sounds like a great last defence and unless there are better or 100 per cent safe other methods then it should stay. Though i'm no expert on T3 possessions it has to be said.

 

[GB]

The T3 issue goes a little deeper than just being about the removal of detornators. Network Rail wanted to bring in a role calleed "Picops Agents" which means someone travelling to the signal box to ensure the signaller has placed his protection correctly....There was also talk of the signallers themselfs getting this extra role (with no increase in pay) which obviously didnt go down too well.

77% of voters voted for action short of strike against 54% of a yes to an all out strike, so i dont really understand why the RMT has gone straight for strike action.

I personally cant see this coming to anything.

 

[Hampshire Unit]

That Bob Crowe... he's sooo 1970s.:roll:

If Rail saftey Belongs in the 1970's then bring it on .......
But I for one want to know for certain That whilst travelling on that train, the regular maintenance of the track underneath me has been carried out. We have all seen the terrible effects that have previously come from poorly maintained tracks and points. And lets be honest Potters Bar really does come to mind with this subject.

 

[Wyvern]

The dispute with the signallers is separate from that with the maintenance guys. Dont let Network Rail and the press muddy the waters. As for instance "Robin Gisby, Network Rail's director of operations and customer services, who has said: " For example, we are asking small numbers of signallers, who have average earnings of almost £50,000, to move from a three-day week to a four-day week."

What the signallers are saying, as I understand it, is that NR are offending against long standing agreements without any sort of consultation. In particular they will be able to make staff redundant on the cheap.

The maintenance guys are upset about changes in organisation which they have not been thought out properly and are being brought in too quickly, and are raising safety issues for both staff and passengers

The Death by Health and Safety Website aims to give an impartial view from outside
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IAnd lets be honest Potters Bar really does come to mind with this subject.

Greyrigg is the incident being highlighted, since the final report included an insufficiency of NR inspection staff as an important factor.

 

[Metroland]

The T3 issue goes a little deeper than just being about the removal of detornators. Network Rail wanted to bring in a role calleed "Picops Agents" which means someone travelling to the signal box to ensure the signaller has placed his protection correctly....There was also talk of the signallers themselfs getting this extra role (with no increase in pay) which obviously didnt go down too well.

77% of voters voted for action short of strike against 54% of a yes to an all out strike, so i dont really understand why the RMT has gone straight for strike action.

I personally cant see this coming to anything.

Thanks for the further information, if a little brief. Picop agents sound an especially useless idea.

Going to the signal box sounds even more 1950s than the previous system, especially as anyone knows reminders (be they electronic, switch covers and lever collars) are taken on and off for one reason or another during the course of working in any case. Unless someone is qualified to work the location and sits and watches everything for hours on end (which is a distraction and therefore hazard in itself) it's almost entirely pointless. It sounds like a legal nightmare should anything go wrong.

On the subject of PT&R, I suspect this will become a bigger issue in years to come as so much resignalling is going on.

 

[Hampshire Unit]

The dispute with the signallers is separate from that with the maintenance guys. Dont let Network Rail and the press muddy the waters. As for instance "Robin Gisby, Network Rail's director of operations and customer services, who has said: " For example, we are asking small numbers of signallers, who have average earnings of almost £50,000, to move from a three-day week to a four-day week."

Sorry but NO . The signallers Dispute is NOT separate from that with the Maintenance. Being a Signaller myself I know what we voted for. If we have a average earnning of almost £50,000 for working 3-4 days then where is my share. As I am on the higher end of the Signalling grade and certainly don't earn £50,000 despite sometimes working a 7 day week. Yes there are some issues with our 94 agreement being broken by Network Rail Imposing Rosters. But our worry is saftey. Please remember that these one thousand five hundred members of staff don't just place detonators on the line at a start of a possesion. These are the same people who by day will walk through the line looking for broken rails, loose bolts and doing general maintenance on points ect.

 

[Wyvern]

Sorry I should have made myself clearer. I quoted Robin Gisby of Network Rail as an example of the distortions that are being touted about.

The link I gave to Death by Health and Safety would , I hope, give an unbiassed discussion of the maintenance issues.

For the signallers I understand there are three issues:

The new method of T3 (absolute) that you are writing about.

THe imposition of rosters when they are normally a matter of local negotiation,

PTR&R (Promotion, Transfer, Redundancy and Resettlement) where it suggested thar people are being made redundant unfairly.

 

[Metroland]

To get £50,000 you couldn't work three days a week - those would be 12 hour shifts in any case. You would have to be the very top grade and work 72 hours a week. 6 days of 12 hour shifts on a continuous basis. Been there and done that with 2 hours travelling at either end because I couldn't afford to live any closer. I had to demote myself because I was getting 4 hours sleep a night, and just couldn't keep awake. This was a great shame as it took years to get to that post.

One role, was £20,000 per annum, the responsibility was 400 trains a shift along with the associated punctuality and legal responsible for the safety of most of the running lines of an entire county. This is slightly more than a clerks job typing letters in an office. Which I also had to do, as well as rosters, updating IT systems, the 200 associated phone calls - many of which were safety critical during a shift.

That particular location had no breaks for an 8 or 12 hour shift and was so busy, you were lucky to get a drink let alone anything else.

I saw so many near misses, near disasters, was involved in disasters indirectly giving evidence, legal wrangles, suicides, idiots at level crossing that were hit by trains, near misses, watched people get fired for momentary lapses in concentration, watched managers gun for people, others promoted because they told tales or were bullies. None of the above were my mistakes, but its the sort of job you end up at inquiries on a regular basis because of idiot actions of your colleagues in other jobs and the same job, members of the public, the police and various officials. I would not return to that job even for 6 figures.

If anyone wants to play trains, stick to simulators, model railways and preserved railways, trust me its far more fun. Signallers are some of the hardest working and underrated people on the planet, and no doubt we'll witness many daily mail comments over the next few days in newspapers showing people's complete and utter ignorance - it's 'just pressing buttons'.

I'm in IT now for much the same money and was the best move I ever made.

 

[Geezertronic]

I'm in IT now for much the same money and was the best move I ever made.

Going off topic a bit, I'm in IT and would do anything to get out, but financially it does not make sense to do so.

 

[Hampshire Unit]

Thanks Metroland and trust me it really has not changed
But Please remember this dispute is about SAFTEY and NOT pay.

 

[Metroland]

Well yep, its not about pay. I just wanted to add the Daily Mail and Sun quote on pay, is factually incorrect, and just wanted to put that right.

I don't think any job is a panacea, but I do have total admiration for those in intensive safety critical roles: Drivers, signallers, pilots, air traffic control, electrical controllers, people in charge of major industrial plants and so on and so forth. Jobs that cost a few quid if you make a mistake to my mind are far more desirable than those that anyone can have lapses and make the headline news because you've killed or injured someone. Those that spend weeks mulling over the rights of wrongs of these things, are incredibly lucky and very often just don't get it.

Whereas I think the worst thing I ever did was run through a set of points, I'd frankly I'd rather not open myself up to the Russian roulette for being involved in something more serious.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is with some of these jobs you will get involved in things: Yes train disasters are rare, but incidents are not - this is the same is most transport or quite a few other safety related occupations.

My conscience is the most important thing to me I'm afraid, so I'll pass.

 

[Wyvern]

Thanks Metroland and trust me it really has not changed
But Please remember this dispute is about SAFTEY and NOT pay.

The trouble is its easier for the Press to dumb it down to a pay issue.

 

[Metroland]

THERE are fresh hopes of resolving the disputes which threaten Easter train services, following the news that talks between Network Rail and the RMT are moving to the conciliation service ACAS.

One dispute involves 13,000 maintenance workers, who are protesting at the loss of 1,500 jobs, and other could lead to action by 6,000 signallers in a separate argument over flexible rostering. The RMT has announced that its strike ballot of signallers resulted in a majority of 54% in favour of walking out.

RMT general secretary Bob Crow maintains the real issue is safety. He said: “Nobody should be under any illusions about just how determined RMT members are to win our fight against Network Rail’s cuts programme and to stop the reckless gamble with rail safety.”

However, Mr Crow’s claims have been dismissed by Network Rail chief executive Iain Coucher.

Mr Coucher told Railnews: “Does anyone really believe that I and the rest of the Network Rail Board would allow safety be compromised? Of course not. And even if we tried, the Office of Rail Regulation is monitoring us very closely, and it is right that it should do so. It is true that the ORR had some concerns about our new maintenance plans, but we are bottoming those out.

“Network Rail must become more efficient. People want a better, larger and more cost-effective railway. And a railway that is safe. We don’t compromise on that, and we won't. But the RMT is demanding indefinite guarantees of no redundancies – ever. That’s not a promise I can make, committing us for decades to come. No company could that.”

Mr Coucher added that of the 1,500 job losses, 400 have already gone through natural wastage, and a further 1,000 have volunteered to go. “So that leaves just 100 jobs to be discussed. We are doing everything we can to find alternative work for people who are displaced, but sometimes we can't reach agreement, perhaps because they are not willing to travel further to work each day. But I have told the RMT there will be no compulsory redundancies this year.

“These strikes would serve no purpose. We can find a resolution to both disputes through discussion. But the RMT has been reluctant. It wanted to get a favourable strike ballot first, before sitting down to talk. It's the way it works.”

The RMT has said its Executive will make a decision about industrial action on Thursday, which would be just in time to give the required seven days’ notice of any strikes over the Easter weekend.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/03/20-fresh-hope-over-network-rail.html

 

[jon0844]

no doubt we'll witness many daily mail comments over the next few days in newspapers showing people's complete and utter ignorance - it's 'just pressing buttons'.

Well, I guess that might be true to a degree; so just tell them what happens if you press the WRONG buttons! Perhaps they'll listen then.

If signallers were thought of in the same way as an air traffic controller, which it must be rather similar to, then I wonder if they would feel any different then?

 

[Wyvern]

Well that's Network Rail's view.

What about the union?

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Shared_ASP_Files/UploadedFiles/D80687E3-47A8-4314-AE9F-2CD6BA97483C_RMTBriefingNetworkRailjobscuts.pdf

Clearly accidents which affect passengers will generate bad headlines but what about the trackside workers?

http://www.deathbyhealthandsafety.co.uk/athousandcuts/findings.html

 

[Metroland]

Well, I guess that might be true to a degree; so just tell them what happens if you press the WRONG buttons! Perhaps they'll listen then.

If signallers were thought of in the same way as an air traffic controller, which it must be rather similar to, then I wonder if they would feel any different then?

I blame those 60s films where they made a point of telling people it was all done at the press of a button. Any idiot can press buttons, even the regulating isn't so hard once you get to know the timetable and location - for those that want to have a go try something like simsig. Though in real life, each delay can cost up to £100 per minute, per train, then there is knock on delay as the train you delayed hits everything else en-route.

What is rather more tricky, and what people don't realise is most of the job is about communication and managing incidents - which you only get a very small taste of in simsig. There is no interlocking with engineering work, failures, single line working and so on. You really don't want to be running something that carries as much as an Airbus and weighs as much into a 2000 ton freight train. You really don't want to be running track workers over, or giving people permission to use level crossings or go on the line and run them down. And its very. very easy and incidents happen all the time at busy locations. You will be report writing at least a couple of times a year, and hear about other people's incidents on a continuous basis on the grapevine, in team briefs, in newsletters, and retraining exercises: Irregular engineering work issues, signalling irregularities, SPADs, near misses, points run through, wrong routing, serious regulation issues, poor paperwork, badly managed incidents which cost the company a lot of money (train failures, major infrastructure failures, suicides, weather related), level crossing mishaps the list is endless.

So I do 100% understand why people get infuriated about safety. And there is plenty of disagreement, all the time (and we've seen a bit of this forum of this publically) what constitutes as safe. You can quickly find yourself at an inquiry (these go on all the time internally) and fighting for your job.

It's not saying I support the strike, because even now, I don't know what the new working exactly entails, its nigh on impossible to comment. So how Daily Mail readers and who never even go on trains can comment, I have no idea.

 

[jon0844]

Daily Mail readers can comment on anything!

 

[33056]

Quote from my instructor in signalling school (25 years ago).

"I could teach a 12 year old to work a signalbox, it's how you deal with the rest of the job (ie. incidents, possessions, failures) that is the hard bit".

These days, you have things like sim-sig that anybody can have a dabble with; more than once I have met people who are good at sim-sig and think that signalling must be easy. Trouble with these simulators is that they don't take into account what can happen when you have a couple of failures, trains standing everywhere and all the phones ringing - let alone the un-social hours. You can always switch a game off, it is not possible to walk out in the middle of a shift or not go to work on, say, Saturday afternoon because you would rather be out with the family / down the pub / at the big match.

 

[turbo mick]

Ive heard if the strikes go ahead they are intending to put signalling managers in the boxes,do you think thats safe any train has a safety issue or error by a manager.

They are talking about skeleton service 7am-7pm then shut down


cheers

 

[jon0844]

Rather than go for an all-out strike, why not allow the operation of an emergency timetable (like the snow timetable) only. It will still be an inconvenience to people, but not total carnage, and the industry can't sit back and say 'Oh, this isn't so bad'.

On the ECML, for example, make every FCC service run all-stations along the slow lines and the others on the fast. There are a few points that would need to be used, along the Welwyn stretch for one, but generally speaking it would be quite easy to operate.

Why get managers to step in and do it when you could do it and refuse to do anything more. I think you could get the same result as going out on strike completely.

 

[royaloak]

Ive heard if the strikes go ahead they are intending to put signalling managers in the boxes,do you think thats safe any train has a safety issue or error by a manager.

Everything will be brushed under the carpet, the delays will be coded OZ so wont come back on the managers trying to be signallers.