Network Rail RMT dispute settled.

[SCDR_WMR]

Who knew that the key to the deal was offering 5 days carers leave , re-jigging the long service deals and ,crucially, giving us the 4% for an extra 3 months ? Yes comrades, these are what your solidarity and strength have won.

Please, spare me the BS. The deal was the same (baring the above) in November when the RMT endorsed a reject vote.

What the union HAS achieved is the weakening of its strength going forward,so this is,at best, a pyrrhic victory. For example :

1) Why say at the outset that not one dispute is settled until all disputes are settled ? NR staff cannot take action on behalf of TOC staff, it is called secondary action and it is ILLEGAL. Sorry to break it to TOC members, but this was always the case. The people you should be angry with are,not NR members, but the hierarchy of the RMT who peddled this myth.

2) As others have pointed out , the RMT has lost members (eligible to vote on 24/05/22 was 21,070. Today's figure is 18,302). A difference of 2,768 ... 13℅ gone ...in less than a year ! Well done. Maggie would be proud.

3) Don't be surprised, if the Signallers want to breakaway from the current collective bargaining procedures. This dispute has been an eye opener for everyone (what about a new union for Mobile Operations Managers And Signalling Staff of MOMsASS)

I'm not angry with NR staff or the Union, and I don't think very many are. My solidarity it to anyone who wishes to stand up to their employers to keep their terms and to fight for a fair pay deal.

Whether NR really feel this deal is acceptable rather than a foregone conclusion given the current consultation process, you'd have to ask them. But it's nothing to do with TOC dispute either way.

 

[infobleep]

It would be interesting to have the full original deal at the time the first strike occurred and the current deal to play spot the changes.

Also, given it has taken this long to agree on a deal, will there be lessons learnt from both sides so that future negotiations don't take so long?

 

[station_road]

I arrived at a staffed station, which had closed early, to buy a priv to travel. As the ticket office was closed I went down to the platform and was going to ask the guard of the train to sell me one.

Only there were revenue staff on the platform, so I asked them to sell me one. "you can't buy them off us, you need to go back upstairs and get a 'promise to pay' ticket"!

I queried that, saying a priv can be bought on the train if the ticket office is closed or station un-staffed but they were having none of it. So back upstairs I go and got a 'promise to pay' which basically said I have to pay cash at the destination station!

I showed it to the revenue staff who waved me though. They had ticket machines with them. Something lacking in their training.

They were correct - your priv card is subject to any restrictions published online by Rail Staff Travel, which for Northern say

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/where-can-i-go.html#Restrictions

You must purchase a ticket before boarding. If this is not possible then you need to obtain a ‘promise to pay’ ticket from the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) if one is available at the station.

 

[Dan G]

Who knew that the key to the deal was offering 5 days carers leave , re-jigging the long service deals and ,crucially, giving us the 4% for an extra 3 months ? Yes comrades, these are what your solidarity and strength have won.

Please, spare me the BS. The deal was the same (baring the above) in November when the RMT endorsed a reject vote.

What the union HAS achieved is the weakening of its strength going forward,so this is,at best, a pyrrhic victory. For example :

1) Why say at the outset that not one dispute is settled until all disputes are settled ? NR staff cannot take action on behalf of TOC staff, it is called secondary action and it is ILLEGAL. Sorry to break it to TOC members, but this was always the case. The people you should be angry with are,not NR members, but the hierarchy of the RMT who peddled this myth.

2) As others have pointed out , the RMT has lost members (eligible to vote on 24/05/22 was 21,070. Today's figure is 18,302). A difference of 2,768 ... 13℅ gone ...in less than a year ! Well done. Maggie would be proud.

3) Don't be surprised, if the Signallers want to breakaway from the current collective bargaining procedures. This dispute has been an eye opener for everyone (what about a new union for Mobile Operations Managers And Signalling Staff of MOMsASS)

I'm glad someone has said this. Let's be clear: the strikes have been a failure.

It would be interesting to have the full original deal at the time the first strike occurred and the current deal to play spot the changes.

Also, given it has taken this long to agree on a deal, will there be lessons learnt from both sides so that future negotiations don't take so long?

See my post #50, which for some reason I can't link to lol

Will the RMT learn from this? Impossible to say; let's just hope they don't forget this experience.

 

[Goldfish62]

And how do you know that the contract says the RMT will not oppose changes to working practices?

The deal that has been accepted was not conditional on changes to working practices so I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

There was no part-acceptance of the deal. It was accepted in full. Changes to working practices have been separated out.

 

[theageofthetra]

They were correct - your priv card is subject to any restrictions published online by Rail Staff Travel, which for Northern say

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/where-can-i-go.html#Restrictions

You just buy online. It's very easy. I haven't used a ticket office since it became available.

 

[mac]

With the 75% off travel card is that just full fare tickets or all advance tickets

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The key point really is that average, though. The railway overall makes a significant net economic contribution, and doesn’t even cost that much in the scheme of things. This is why freezing budgets is a bad decision, and ultimately self defeating if it stunts passenger numbers.

AIUI we also subsidise ours rather less than some other European countries (including Switzerland!).

But on the flip side we have the NHS here which means you don’t need private health insurance unlike those other European Countries you mention.

I would suspect shuffling it around to adopt European Model of pay more for health but subsidise transport is unlikely to be a popular policy.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry, I’m really tired so not sure what you mean.

I think that you are look I also don't really get why staff being offered free travel that they're not entitled to is a "problem" worth spending any energy on trying to "resolve", but given that is the view in some quarters this is part of the answer. I doubt it will have much effect but there you go. It's also an attempt to prevent further use of 'discouraged' retail channels such as ticket offices.

Widening the existing scheme to include thousands of new people would have been nigh on impossible regardless. Free Tramlink travel would also have risked a tax charge.

 

[TheBigD]

With the 75% off travel card is that just full fare tickets or all advance tickets

See the link in post #38.

Basically 75% off peak and off peak fares. Nothing off advances. Online only as well.

 

[bazzarati]

I arrived at a staffed station, which had closed early, to buy a priv to travel. As the ticket office was closed I went down to the platform and was going to ask the guard of the train to sell me one.

Only there were revenue staff on the platform, so I asked them to sell me one. "you can't buy them off us, you need to go back upstairs and get a 'promise to pay' ticket"!

I queried that, saying a priv can be bought on the train if the ticket office is closed or station un-staffed but they were having none of it. So back upstairs I go and got a 'promise to pay' which basically said I have to pay cash at the destination station!

I showed it to the revenue staff who waved me though. They had ticket machines with them. Something lacking in their training.

So what would the procedure be if you have to buy a ticket online, but the ticket machine isn't working or there's no ticket office to collect from?

 

[Starmill]

They were correct - your priv card is subject to any restrictions published online by Rail Staff Travel, which for Northern say

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/where-can-i-go.html#Restrictions

You can only get a Promise to Pay from the machine if you agree to pay exclusively with cash. If you don't the machine won't allow you to have one. So that's not relevant if paying by any other means.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

So what would the procedure be if you have to buy a ticket online, but the ticket machine isn't working or there's no ticket office to collect from?

Same as with any passenger, board the train. If there's a ticket check though, you're likely to be asked to pay again, and you will have to complain to get your money back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

You mean like any railcard? Bit confused by this point.

Well, a railcard doesn't imply you're a member of staff.

 

[eldomtom2]

The deal that has been accepted was not conditional on changes to working practices so I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

There was no part-acceptance of the deal. It was accepted in full. Changes to working practices have been separated out.

So in other words, it is not accurate to say that this deal means that the RMT are accepting changes to working practices?

 

[dk1]

So what would the procedure be if you have to buy a ticket online, but the ticket machine isn't working or there's no ticket office to collect from?

In 38 years I've never had a problem buying priv. You'll find much of the time staff don't like taking money from staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

So what would the procedure be if you have to buy a ticket online, but the ticket machine isn't working or there's no ticket office to collect from?

For NR staff with the new travel facilities, the usual routine is to have the ticket on your phone. At least that’s what everyone (and I mean everyone) I know who has this facility does. You must get your ticket on line, therefore it seems a bit odd that you’d then want to collect the ticket from a ticket office or machine.

 

[Krokodil]

Not all tickets can be fulfilled by a mobile device. Some (anything involving Merseyrail, or cross-London travel for instance) must be fulfilled on CCST stock. On any other app, such a ticket will be issued as a ToD.

Presumably this rule will also exclude NR staff from purchasing Priv rovers, because they can't be fulfilled online.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

For NR staff with the new travel facilities, the usual routine is to have the ticket on your phone. At least that’s what everyone (and I mean everyone) I know who has this facility does. You must get your ticket on line, therefore it seems a bit odd that you’d then want to collect the ticket from a ticket office or machine.

There are still an awful lot of tickets which don’t allow E-ticket fulfilment.

 

[WAB]

See the link in post #38.

Basically 75% off peak and off peak fares. Nothing off advances. Online only as well.

So a bit rubbish really, especially given the tendency over the last decade to make InterCity flexible tickets effectively a distress purchase, with advance tickets being the only way to travel for a reasonable price?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So a bit rubbish really, especially given the tendency over the last decade to make InterCity flexible tickets effectively a distress purchase, with advance tickets being the only way to travel for a reasonable price?

Which is why in GB we are unusual in allowing PRIV discounts on off peak and super off peak. The standard has generally been of the open ticket prices until this was changed a few years ago.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have been using the NR pass for four months and I think it's great... 75% off off peak fares makes travel very affordable, even popping from Leeds to Scotland or Cornwall just for a few days. Easily beats fuel prices even with two of us.

Yes it's not as good as others but it's better than hoping XC had some decent advances like before!

 

[bazzarati]

For NR staff with the new travel facilities, the usual routine is to have the ticket on your phone. At least that’s what everyone (and I mean everyone) I know who has this facility does. You must get your ticket on line, therefore it seems a bit odd that you’d then want to collect the ticket from a ticket office or machine.

You just did a Sky News @Bald Rick: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1636275266996559873

You only have to check the company Yammer to see that's not the case for most though. Personally I don't like carrying a phone because it's too heavy, causes cancer (yes I never got the killer Vax either) or making people redundant in the name of 'progress'.

 

[43066]

But on the flip side we have the NHS here which means you don’t need private health insurance unlike those other European Countries you mention.

I would suspect shuffling it around to adopt European Model of pay more for health but subsidise transport is unlikely to be a popular policy.

Many of those countries also spend more per capita on health, and have far better outcomes than the beleaguered NHS delivers in this country.

Ultimately we need to ask ourselves whether we want to continue with crap public services and healthcare in this country. If not then we will need to pay for better.

Of course none of this matters to people like the current PM and chancellor because they can afford to simply go private with their healthcare, or drop a few grand on helicopter flights if they don’t fancy slumming it on the train…

 

[LAX54]

I

So a bit rubbish really, especially given the tendency over the last decade to make InterCity flexible tickets effectively a distress purchase, with advance tickets being the only way to travel for a reasonable price?

It is only recently that PRIV's were changed, it used to be that a prive was 75% of the FULL open return fare, for many years, the public could obtain cheaper tickets than rail staff

 

[DarloRich]

So what would the procedure be if you have to buy a ticket online, but the ticket machine isn't working or there's no ticket office to collect from?

You can either have A TOD code or a e ticket

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

So a bit rubbish really, especially given the tendency over the last decade to make InterCity flexible tickets effectively a distress purchase, with advance tickets being the only way to travel for a reasonable price?

yeah it is so rubbish it makes going to the football something I can decide to do the night before rather than plotting games weeks in advance and buying 57 different ticket combinations to make the journey.

For NR staff with the new travel facilities, the usual routine is to have the ticket on your phone. At least that’s what everyone (and I mean everyone) I know who has this facility does. You must get your ticket on line, therefore it seems a bit odd that you’d then want to collect the ticket from a ticket office or machine.

*cough* - I get mine from the machine at my local station. That suits me. It also means i dont have to carry my work phone out of hours.

Short notice/short distance i will use an e ticket.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Not all tickets can be fulfilled by a mobile device. Some (anything involving Merseyrail, or cross-London travel for instance) must be fulfilled on CCST stock. On any other app, such a ticket will be issued as a ToD.

Presumably this rule will also exclude NR staff from purchasing Priv rovers, because they can't be fulfilled online.

Yes, this is confusing me too. The documentation I've read so far suggests that NR staff do qualify for 75% off rover tickets but then if you can't buy them online then you can't get the discount!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You can either have A TOD code or a e ticket

No, it depends on the fulfilment options for the ticket you have purchased, not all are available as E-tickets (any Merseyrail or Ticket involving cross London journeys).

 

[DarloRich]

No, it depends on the fulfilment options for the ticket you have purchased, not all are available as E-tickets (any Merseyrail or Ticket involving cross London journeys).

ok - although i am SURE i have had an e ticket for cross London transfer but it is all new so.............

I have never bought a ticket for merseyrail so dont know anything about that!

 

[Bald Rick]

You just did a Sky News @Bald Rick: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1636275266996559873

You only have to check the company Yammer to see that's not the case for most though. Personally I don't like carrying a phone because it's too heavy, causes cancer (yes I never got the killer Vax either) or making people redundant in the name of 'progress'.

err, what?

 

[LowLevel]

So a bit rubbish really, especially given the tendency over the last decade to make InterCity flexible tickets effectively a distress purchase, with advance tickets being the only way to travel for a reasonable price?

Bar the most extortionate fares it is now pretty reasonable to go just about anywhere. When it was Anytime only it was a bit painful at times but now it's a great perk.

 

[bazzarati]

err, what?

It's what people in officialdom do when they don't want to consider other people's pov, pretend they speak for everyone.