Network Rail request York triangle removed

[YorkshireBear]

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2011/york-engineers-triangle-removal-requested-by-network-rail/

First i heard of this. And the plans for the south yard at NRM, anyone know anything about them?

i cant imagine Siemens are overly happy about having steam engines trundle through their depot 30 times a year.

 

[Tracky]

Do Siemens charge for access to the NRM. And to be pedantic, 30 turns is 60 times through their site.

 

[142094]

Wonder how big this control centre is that Network Rail want to build - there is a hell of a lot of land on the York Central site that could be used instead of this.

 

[Metroland]

It's also a training centre, offices, and other things. It will be a regional base for 3,000 people. On the signalling side it will have 48 desks, and be the biggest signalling centre in the country. It will control all the English ECML (apart from London area which is going to Three Bridges) and Eastern region of NR. Leeds, York, Newcastle, Doncaster, Peterborough areas, plus all of Lincolnshire and Humberside, Tyneside and Teeside.
I should imagine the ECML alone will have about 12-14 signalling desks, it's probably already been planned out by CCD or a similar company

http://www.ccd-design.co.uk/p/Our-Projects/sector/1/orderBy/sector/

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/252295-contract-agreed-for-york-rail-centre.html

 

[tbtc]

It's also a training centre, offices, and other things. It will be a regional base for 3,000 people. On the signalling side it will have 48 desks, and be the biggest signalling centre in the country. It will control all the English ECML (apart from London area which is going to Three Bridges) and Eastern region of NR. Leeds, York, Newcastle, Doncaster, Peterborough areas, plus all of Lincolnshire and Humberside, Tyneside and Teeside.
I should imagine the ECML alone will have about 12-14 signalling desks, it's probably already been planned out by CCD or a similar company

http://www.ccd-design.co.uk/p/Our-Projects/sector/1/orderBy/sector/

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/252295-contract-agreed-for-york-rail-centre.html

So an end to the "one shift" Sunday working in Lincolnshire (due to not keeping boxes open for more than one daytime shift on a Sunday), hence no services before lunchtime on a Sunday?

 

[Ploughman]

Will it be worth the NRM looking for another turntable and install it in the south yard?

 

[Nym]

You could hope so, could also mean earlyer and later services on branches that close late on, such as the last trains being cancelled for being too late off Leeds for Hull etc.

But that would mean signallers working more than one 'desk' but then again, it depends on how many you'll have in, and how many areas can be operated at once.

 

[swt_passenger]

i cant imagine Siemens are overly happy about having steam engines trundle through their depot 30 times a year.

Did you not read the article before linking to it then?

To access this turntable, engines have to go through the Siemens Transpennine depot north of York station before reversing into the museum. Both are very receptive and co-operative in facilitating steam locomotive movements.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Will it be worth the NRM looking for another turntable and install it in the south yard?

It seems to suggest they are planning this already which i had no knowledge of at all.

Did you not read the article before linking to it then?

Yes i did. But i do not believe everything i read online, and even if they released a statement saying so i still wouldnt be convinced.

 

[Tomnick]

But that would mean signallers working more than one 'desk' but then again, it depends on how many you'll have in, and how many areas can be operated at once.

Not necessarily - if a whole route can be operated by one or two workstations, then it's no great hardship manning them 24hrs. In any case, leaving aside the demands of engineering work, level crossings etc., I don't know whether it'd be feasible to expect one Signalman to cover two workstations in an IECC environment (where the workstations are self-contained, as opposed to a typical panel where the Signalmen work at different positions along the same panel).

 

[Nym]

Well, I get the feeling it would be one desk that could operate many different route sections, much like the way the NTCC works down in Birmingham (I don't think many have seen it) but if they work on a modeling system I designed a few years back, where each 'pannel' is visualised, and you take this over onto a specific workstation. Being virtually switched out to each workstation, or closed. And with a load factor on each virtual pannel so a signaller can only handle so many at once, some with high workloads can be shared aswell, with open duplex comms between the signallers operating different halves of the virtual panel. Not too hard to implement.

 

[DarloRich]

from what i understood the engineers triangle was to be replaced by another triangle in an alternative location in York.

 

[Tomnick]

Nym - you've lost me a bit there, but it sounds vaguely feasible. The main constraints, I'd imagine, would be the need of clearly defining a Signalman's area of responsibility, the obvious one of competencies to work a particular area and 'additional' items on a workstation such as CCTV for level crossings (unless the intention is for this to be somehow built into the VDUs - everything so far that I'm aware of has the CCTV and controls mounted on a separate unit).

 

[swt_passenger]

Wonder how big this control centre is that Network Rail want to build - there is a hell of a lot of land on the York Central site that could be used instead of this.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Media-Library/Ariel-view-of-site-1438.aspx

It's a number of facilities colocated, not just the ROC.

 

[Nym]

Nym - you've lost me a bit there, but it sounds vaguely feasible. The main constraints, I'd imagine, would be the need of clearly defining a Signalman's area of responsibility, the obvious one of competencies to work a particular area and 'additional' items on a workstation such as CCTV for level crossings (unless the intention is for this to be somehow built into the VDUs - everything so far that I'm aware of has the CCTV and controls mounted on a separate unit).

CCTV Etc is intergrated into a single control system at the NTCC with a control pannel on every station. And definition of areas when sharing would be colaborative, hence the open line comms between them, but if every virtual pannel has it's own PSB Switchroom locally that is virtualised out with a connection, it can theorectically be controlled from any control bench in the country.

 

[Tomnick]

The Highways bunch might have integrated CCTV displays into the control system, but that's rather a different kettle of fish to the railway's requirement for crossing CCTV - these are (without exception?) provided separately as the main workstation screens exclusively provide the views of the controlled area. I can imagine some workstations would be particularly busy with level crossing workload, with the requirement to view and control numerous crossings simultaneously. I could well be proved wrong in the future though, if plans to allow control to be transferred elsewhere come off!

"Definition of areas when sharing would be colaborative" confuses me more than ever - are you suggesting having a number of Signalmen controlling one particular area? It might work in a double-manned mechanical box, it happens to some extent on a panel where one chap can provide some visible support, and I know of at least one IECC (most probably more) with an 'assist' position. I'm not convinced that it'd be a good idea to have two or more chaps sharing the workload and responsibilities (as opposed to having one chap providing assistance with defined limits!) in a given area in an IECC environment, as you seem to be suggesting.

 

[Nym]

Well, if there is a defined segment of control, sharing becomes less of an issue, if there doesn't need to be much communication or interworking between the signallers, "You do that side, I'll do this side" or "You do the fasts, I'll do the slows" kind of working.

CCTV I don't know the rules around it, but technical systems aren't a problem any more.

 

[Metroland]

I think the ability to control a bigger area during quieter times is a good one with a couple of caveats.

In mechanical box areas boxes can be switched out and block sections exended, should the need arise. On the west of england main line some boxes only used to open during busy summer saturday weekends for example.

With modern equipment some psbs have extra positions and workstations manned during peak or busy times.

The way I would envisage a system working in a large ROC is some desks would have more screens and other equipment, so 1 or 2 adjoining desks can pass over control at quieter times, say nights. Lincolnshire would be a prime example where you would need more manpower to cope with level crossing activities during the day but there is little or no traffic overnight. 1 desk could probably take over the work of one, two or even three.

The control of lines should never be switched however on a informal basis, and two people should never be in joint control over one section of line. This just sets up communication problems, very important in safety critical roles.

 

[Tomnick]

The control of lines should never be switched however on a informal basis, and two people should never be in joint control over one section of line. This just sets up communication problems, very important in safety critical roles.

That's exactly what I was getting at, and was hoping you'd come along for valuable input! "You do the fasts, I'll do the slows" sounds all well and good until the chap dealing with the fasts has to talk one past a signal to cross over to the slow at the same time as the chap dealing with the slows is giving a block to someone. A more formal arrangement whereby one specific workstation is designed to regularly absorb the workload of other specified workstations (and is designed to allow this) sounds much more sensible.

 

[Zoe]

On the west of england main line some boxes only used to open during busy summer saturday weekends for example.

Parsons Tunnel was one example of a summer Saturdays only box but many of the small boxes though were actually open during the week as discussed elsewhere.

 

[142094]

Even though the building itself looks quite big, there is a lot of land in that area which could be used instead of this bit (although it probably would come at an additional cost).

 

[lincolnshire]

The removal of the triangle at York for steam trains etc has been on the cards since Railtrack days.

There plan was to build a large office block on the site and save money on leasing Hudson House, Prudential Hose, and other rented office space in York and Leeds.

As they owned this land as against the offices they was using, another of the hazards of privatization of the railways as the land they stood on was not operational railway land it still belonged to B.R.B.

So it was decided that to get rid of the triangle they would need another means of turning engines etc. so they plan was to remove the turmtable from Scarborough and relocate it at york instead. The plan went wrong when they found out that the turntable was paid for by Scarborough Borough Council for running the Scarborough Spa Express trains in the summer months.

 

[Bald Rick]

The technology mentioned above is known as Scaleable Workstations, which in simple terms is the ability to zoom in and out an area of control. So under normal running, with no incidents or out of course running, a signaller may control a wide area with ARS and traffic management systems setting the routes and proposing regulation decisions. During an incident or period of intense activity, the signaller can zoom in to a specific area, and hand control of the rest in a formalised manner to another workstation. All this technology exists now.

For CCTV LX, most if not all are likely to be converted to fully automatic with obstacle detection, meaning the signaller only intervenes in the event of an incident.

 

[jonhewes]

So it was decided that to get rid of the triangle they would need another means of turning engines etc. so they plan was to remove the turmtable from Scarborough and relocate it at york instead. The plan went wrong when they found out that the turntable was paid for by Scarborough Borough Council for running the Scarborough Spa Express trains in the summer months.

That's a ridiculous solution though. How would they turn locomotives at Scarborough?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Instead of twee lawns in front of their new complex, be nice if they built a brand new 'state of the art' turntable as a centrepiece!!

 

[DarloRich]

That's a ridiculous solution though. How would they turn locomotives at Scarborough?

i was told the triangle would be put back in, at another location in York - but i wonder if the plans have changed

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Turntables etc have been used not just for turning steam engines.
The one at St Blazey on a few occasions has been used to turn all the clay wagons. About a week solid turning! A few trainloads used Laira triangle.
Diesel engines have been turned to even up wheel wear.

 

[lincolnshire]

I bet that Network Rail will go out of there way not to put back the triangle, so to try and stop steam trains and get rid of them off there tracks.

You will find that they are very good at finding devious ways to get rid of them, I bet you will find it will be some M.P, s that get involved before they replace it somewhere and only then just in case someone starts asking questions about there supply of money from the government coffers, don,t upset the hand that feeds you with the money.

 

[DarloRich]

I bet that Network Rail will go out of there way not to put back the triangle, so to try and stop steam trains and get rid of them off there tracks.

You will find that they are very good at finding devious ways to get rid of them, I bet you will find it will be some M.P, s that get involved before they replace it somewhere and only then just in case someone starts asking questions about there supply of money from the government coffers, don,t upset the hand that feeds you with the money.

Total and utter wibble:roll:

Another person who thinks, following the ECML unpleasentness, that there is a conspiracy against main line steam. It is bad when even the Railway Magazine starts to suggest such a thing!

 

[lincolnshire]

That's a ridiculous solution though. How would they turn locomotives at Scarborough?

If you read what I put it was a suggestion to take the turntable from Scarborough, it didn,t happen , it still there turning steam engines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Total and utter wibble:roll:

Another person who thinks, following the ECML unpleasantness, that there is a conspiracy against main line steam. It is bad when even the Railway Magazine starts to suggest such a thing!

Certainly not wibble as you describe it, bet it happens sooner than you think.
A certain problem on the ECML going south in the last week or two has been put down to a line side fire caused by a steam engine.
That little problem cost a lot of money in train delays, another good excuse to ban steam engines from the main lines mid week.