Network Rail bets on mindfulness (and err...Greggs) to lure commuters back

[Phil56]

As much as I’m not a fan of working at home, I’m absolutely not in favour of using taxation to penalise it. At a time of rising living costs more generally, it would be grossly unfair, not to mention unpopular.

The way forward if we want some return to commuting by rail is incentivising through lower costs. I’d accept however that the commuter rail market is not going to be the same as it was for some time. The removal of peak time fares would probably be the best option as far as I can see.

A good option would be maybe giving tax relief on commuting costs using public transport, i.e. train and bus season tickets. So, don't punish those WFH but incentive workers to use public transport, which will also discourage private car use.

 

[urbophile]

And no more nagging about face coverings for pete's sake.

They're not going to attract many passengers worried about infection, if they appear to be casual abut the use of face coverings.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Yes.

If the economy suffers due to WFH, then in should be taxed. Easy thing is to remove WFH tax relief, which isn't a tax anyway. That can then be redistributed to other areas of the economy that are suffering as a result.

There are already far too many dinosaurs in the Government and in the management of the rail sector. It's about time our country moved with the times, discouraging WFH is asinine.

 

[RailWonderer]

Fuel duty/Car costs: The cost of driving hasn't risen unlike public transport. Fuel duty hasn't risen and as people go electric the costs will reduce further. Clean air zones will help, as will a switch to road pricing - but that's years off. No government will raise fuel duty either given inflation currently.

? The fuel price went from £1.17 a litre to £1.62 in a year in some places. Driving is way costlier and so are taxis as a result.

 

[Steddenm]

A good option would be maybe giving tax relief on commuting costs using public transport, i.e. train and bus season tickets. So, don't punish those WFH but incentive workers to use public transport, which will also discourage private car use.

The do this in Ireland with the Tax Saver discount scheme - see www.taxsaver.ie - where you get a discount on public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The do this in Ireland with the Tax Saver discount scheme - see www.taxsaver.ie - where you get a discount on public transport.

Quite a lot of countries offer tax relief on commuting. Offering it on public transport only (just as it is offered via the Cycle to Work Scheme, though unfortunately not on walking to work*) is not a bad idea.

It would also make expenses administration much easier.

* "But it's free"...you'd be surprised how often your shoes need replacing if you do a three mile walk to work as I once did!

 

[MadCommuter]

My commute by rail is £7.80 peak fare, £4.50 off peak, plus around £1 in petrol to get to the station. To drive the same journey costs around £4-5 in fuel and I can park for free with a 10 minute walk to the office. I haven't factored in wear and tear on the car but I need to own a car regardless. I was in the office one day a week before Christmas and found driving much more convenient, no cancellations and the congestion was the same each day, so no actual delay on journey time. Door to door it took the same length of time.

So, either the train fare is drastically reduced or I will continue driving. The other thing that would stop me driving, would be too increase my driving costs, either by pushing the free parking boundary out significantly, increasing petrol taxes or introduce road pricing which effectively makes rail 'cheaper'.

 

[ExRes]

It's about time our country moved with the times, discouraging WFH is asinine.

The problem with encouraging WFH is the risk of a serious increase in mental health problems, in the rush to praise WFH there seems to be a lack of any discussion on staring at the same four walls all day, every day, with no human contact

 

[baz962]

The problem with encouraging WFH is the risk of a serious increase in mental health problems, in the rush to praise WFH there seems to be a lack of any discussion on staring at the same four walls all day, every day, with no human contact

I'm on another non rail forum and according to some posters , they quit WFH employers to go back in the office and others wish to do too. Some others are being told to go back to work , but are being allowed a phased return to allow time to arrange things like childcare.

 

[37424]

I'm on another non rail forum and according to some posters , they quit WFH employers to go back in the office and others wish to do too. Some others are being told to go back to work , but are being allowed a phased return to allow time to arrange things like childcare.

But then a friend of mine has changed to a full time work from home job when his previous employers wanted him to come back to the office 2 days a week. Yes full time or even part time working from home may not be for everyone but for many people it is. The plus for him is will allow him to move to a location he wants instead of being close to the office, plus much less office politics which he was never interested in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with encouraging WFH is the risk of a serious increase in mental health problems, in the rush to praise WFH there seems to be a lack of any discussion on staring at the same four walls all day, every day, with no human contact

For every extrovert for whom that is a problem there's an introvert for whom it's bliss.

As I said, it's a matter for employers, employees, and where applicable Unions. And nobody else.

 

[baz962]

But then a friend of mine has changed to a full time work from home job when his previous employers wanted him to come back to the office 2 days a week. Yes full time or even part time working from home may not be for everyone but for many people it is. The plus for him is will allow him to move to a location he wants instead of being close to the office, plus much less office politics which he was never interested in.

Of course. Many people prefer work from home , but I was surprised that some people will change jobs to actually go in. Maybe more commuting will come back than previously thought. Of course it won't be like before .

 

[Ex-controller]

We don't want more commuting by rail if businesses don't want it. It is for businesses to decide the most effective way of using their staff, in conjunction with those staff and any directly relevant Unions.

The railway does not have a fundamental right to exist. It exists to serve transport need. If that need goes away, it either changes to serve other transport need or it closes.

This is a bit like a macro-level discussion on Stranraer-Girvan.

Ah okay. Quite a fatalistic approach for UK rail forums but so be it. Given that we know that there will always be some need for travel, and that some level of commuting will likely exist into the future - not all jobs can be done from home - I’d like to think most of us hope that a decent proportion of it will be by rail.

 

[LittleAH]

? The fuel price went from £1.17 a litre to £1.62 in a year in some places. Driving is way costlier and so are taxis as a result.

And? Fuel duty hasn't risen in 12 years - had it done, that would've been more money available for the treasury. Also compare that to the cost of public transport which has risen exponentially. Also, the average cost of petrol per litre was 121p in March 2020 and is now 146p.

There are already far too many dinosaurs in the Government and in the management of the rail sector. It's about time our country moved with the times, discouraging WFH is asinine.

And the impact to the UK economy? Various studies give differing results but it's been estimated between £15-32bn. That has to be offset somewhere, and I don't think anyone who needs to be physically in a workplace will want to pay more for those who WFH. If you want the convenience, you should have to contribute towards it. Simple thing is to scrap tax relief.

Rubbish we shouldn't be trying to push people not to work from home just for the benefit of City Centre coffee shops and public transport. The economy will have to adjust as required and lets be very clear about WFH was happening before covid its not an invention of covid just an acceleration.

Recently a coffee shop has opened near where I live and apparently its doing very well benefiting from some WFH workers.

The whole business of the daily commute was madness anyway if we can reduce it both on Public Transport and Private Transport it will be a benefit in a number of respects.

As above. If the treasury lose out on income, it affects everyone. Someone has to pay. And it's not just coffee shops, what about the high street? Already on its arse in many towns, but now cities too.

When I work from home though I'm using my electricity, my gas etc, plus I usually walk to work when I am in the office so I don't see how a tax would really be fair.

(I'm also one of those people who makes my own sandwiches and batch cooks so there is literally no benefit to the "High Street" from me either.

Therefore it your choice to either be in an office or to effectively pay more to WFH. Not fair for those with jobs in physical workplaces to subsidise those who WFH is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah okay. Quite a fatalistic approach for UK rail forums but so be it. Given that we know that there will always be some need for travel, and that some level of commuting will likely exist into the future - not all jobs can be done from home - I’d like to think most of us hope that a decent proportion of it will be by rail.

I hope so too, but my point is that the railway is not entitled to have commuters. People should commute if it fulfils a business need or is good for their mental health, not because the railway wants money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2022 ==

As above. If the treasury lose out on income, it affects everyone. Someone has to pay. And it's not just coffee shops, what about the high street? Already on its arse in many towns, but now cities too.

Businesses exist to serve customers, not by right. If they are not doing, they need to change.

Today's chainstore high street has existed for maybe 50 years. No reason it has to continue. It is mediocre anyway.

 

[ar10642]

I've taken a job 100 miles from home on the basis that it is primarily working from home with a couple of times in the office a month (Haywards Heath to Cambridge North, quite far I know). To me it is completely mad that it is a lot cheaper in marginal costs for me to drive my diesel 7 seater (4 kids...) with nobody in it except me, including the Dart Charge, than taking the train.

The train is £65.80 for an anytime day return, or about £60 if you do clever split ticketing. Driving is about £30-35 in diesel plus £5 for the Dart Charge (free parking). How can this make sense at a time when we're supposed to be cutting emissions.

I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I pretty much told my employer I won't be coming in more than twice a month due to the cost of the train and I wasn't prepared to drive the awful M25/M11 journey, but many will be priced out of using rail for no real reason. BTW the train is busy until London Bridge, then pretty much everyone in my carriage is off by St Pancras and I sometimes have the carriage to myself from there until maybe Letchworth or Royston.

So me the *obvious* thing to do is get rid of Anytime fares, they make commuting by rail in a hybrid working era completely uncompetitive. And I'm sorry but the "Flexi Season" ticket is a joke.

 

[43096]

Ah okay. Quite a fatalistic approach for UK rail forums but so be it. Given that we know that there will always be some need for travel, and that some level of commuting will likely exist into the future - not all jobs can be done from home - I’d like to think most of us hope that a decent proportion of it will be by rail.

Perhaps the railway needs to start treating its customers as such rather than with the contempt that has been shown hitherto.

 

[yorksrob]

That would be a great way of alienating more customers.

What is needed is a wholesale review of walk up ticket fares to sensible levels, the removal of peak pricing where there is no longer peak demand and then the use of Advance tickets to fill empty seats. Once a line starts experiencing crowding issues, prices can then be raised until loadings are healthy. A line by line approach needs to be taken.

If the weekends are now the peak, perhaps that can be reflected in the fare structure, but correspondingly the weekday morning peak should therefore be abolished where it is no longer appropriate.

The current situation of pricing customers off the railway and providing a skeleton service at best, yet simultaneously wondering where the passengers have gone and questioning why revenue is down, is frankly ridiculous.

Indeed. The national railcard needs to be introduced for starters.

The treasury need to be increasing revenue, not the opposite.

 

[JonathanH]

The train is £65.80 for an anytime day return, or about £60 if you do clever split ticketing. Driving is about £30-35 in diesel plus £5 for the Dart Charge (free parking). How can this make sense at a time when we're supposed to be cutting emissions.

Are you placing no value at all on the fact that someone else does the driving? There is fatigue involved in both travelling by train and driving but at least the train time can be spent sleeping or catching up on other things if necessary.

 

[Deltic1961]

The peak thing is laughable really. The 17:25 service from Aberdeen to Inverness is the only peak one, but it was allocated peak pre-covid when commuter numbers were so much higher.

If the excess charges for peak are to manage loading then there needs to be consistency from the operator side. Some days it's a 4 car HST and other days it's a 2 car 158. which is less than half the capacity. It's a gamble knowing what you'll get as it changes literally every day.

 

[ar10642]

Are you placing money value at all on the fact that someone else does the driving? There is fatigue involved in both travelling by train and driving but at least the train time can be spent sleeping or catching up on other things if necessary.

Yes, that's why I am happy to pay it. But I'm in a privileged enough position to be able to make that choice, and the fact the train is nearly empty for the majority of the journey, but the M11 will be extremely busy, suggests something badly wrong.

 

[Jurg]

* "But it's free"...you'd be surprised how often your shoes need replacing if you do a three mile walk to work as I once did!

Especially if you've fallen for the false economy of buying cheap shoes

 

[LittleAH]

Businesses exist to serve customers, not by right. If they are not doing, they need to change.

Today's chainstore high street has existed for maybe 50 years. No reason it has to continue. It is mediocre anyway.

Again, if it affects the income to the treasury, it's a problem that needs to be offset in other ways. Similar to how we will end up with road pricing.

 

[Timetraveller]

If you can work from home now, how long are the big companies going to keep people in the UK employed? With improved technology now available it can be done cheaper in another country.

 

[ar10642]

If you can work from home now, how long are the big companies going to keep people in the UK employed? With improved technology now available it can be done cheaper in another country.

A genuine concern but not one that appears to be getting much traction in my industry at least. Language/cultural barriers and timezones are problems and remember a lot of these jobs are still hybrid with some time in an office. Most are not fully remote.

The railway will need to adapt. Flexi seasons ain't it.

 

[LittleAH]

The railway will need to adapt. Flexi seasons ain't it.

8 journeys a month for 75% of the cost. Whoever came up with that is not in touch with reality.

 

[Deltic1961]

With improved technology now available it can be done cheaper in another country

Most big companies already have their accounting, HR etc. outsourced to Eastern Europe anyway.

 

[Bishopstone]

One of the issues that would concern me in re-committing to commuting by rail is the amount of industrial action on the network: actual or threatened.

The day I bought an annual season ticket would, inevitably, be the same day a national dispute over pension changes (etc) was instigated. This may be what the industry was anticipating when they bulk-purchased mindfulness courses.…

 

[ar10642]

Completely agree. There is no justification in my opinion for tax relief for working from home. In fact, I'd go as far to say people doing it should have to pay more in tax, to subsidise Public transport and city services for those who need them.

I think you might be overestimating how much an (up to) £125 tax rebate influences the decision when rail season tickets can be north of £5k.

 

[Mojo]

I think you might be overestimating how much an (up to) £125 tax rebate influences the decision when rail season tickets can be north of £5k.

This in my opinion is not about influencing others, but is it fair and justified for people such as police, transport workers, service workers and similar, to effectively be subsidising those working from home.