Netherlands introduce contactless for second class train travel

[DanielB]

Are there still many on-train ticket inspections? I spent most of last week travelling around the Netherlands by train (in 1st class) and didn't get checked once on board a train. Going back 10 years, it seemed rare not be checked on board during every trip.

Depends a bit on the operator. The regional operators tend to inspect tickets more frequently.
At NS it has been really bad last year with hardly any ticket inspections (and lots of passengers in first class without the correct ticket). However recently this has improved and tickets are checked more often again, though it does occur indeed that you'll not see the guard the entire trip. (Some train compositions with multiple trainsets are also allowed to run with only one guard, so when travelling to the next stop the odds of encountering the guard are even lower)

 

[fandroid]

I'd better get my brain in gear, I'm due to travel from Schiphol to Leiden and back in two weeks time. My first venture onto NS for quite a while.

 

[AdamWW]

Thank you .

Shame it isn't still a train.

Hope the ticket machine really does take things other than maestro credit cards .. Remember being stuck at a Netherlands station in the past with nothing that would accept visa MasterCard etc or cash .. only Maestro cards.

Yes the ticket machine takes cards.

And I was surprised to find that a 2 hour ticket from the machine is actually cheaper than an OV card to Schiedam Centrum. I presume contactless will be the same price as an OV card and therefore it will still be cheaper (though slightly less convenient) to buy a ticket.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2023 ==

Yes, the system is live and ticket inspectors are able to see that you're checked in.
Actually this was the main challenge for the bus operators as the chipcard system on buses was never online and just transferred data via wifi at the depot. A live system was required for the checks with the banks for sufficient credit and for example if the card is blocked.

They must have excellent mobile phone coverage across the country if they can guarantee that it's always possible to do a check on a contactless card when someone uses one on a bus. (Or maybe you just have to take your chances?)

I have always assumed that in the UK when you use a card on a bus they take the chance that it's been recently blocked or doesn't have sufficient funds. Certainly I've never been aware of problems with data connections, or even waiting the sort of time you often do in a small shop for a credit card machine to phone home.

 

[zero]

They must have excellent mobile phone coverage across the country if they can guarantee that it's always possible to do a check on a contactless card when someone uses one on a bus. (Or maybe you just have to take your chances?)

Well NL is a small and flat country and not much of it could be called "rural" unlike large parts of the UK.

 

[DanielB]

They must have excellent mobile phone coverage across the country if they can guarantee that it's always possible to do a check on a contactless card when someone uses one on a bus. (Or maybe you just have to take your chances?)

The Netherlands actually has one of the best mobile networks on mainland Europe, according to tests.
Buses where already connected to that network as most operators run their communication with the control room via mobile phone nowadays. Has also disadvantages: there have been (rare) cases where services were stopped due to the phone network being down. (Especially when the backup network for emergency calls didn't work)

AFAIK the check isn't done while you're holding your card in front of the reader, but immediately afterwards. Thus when a card is blocked it might allow one transaction but after that it's registered as a blocked card in the OV pay system.

 

[AdamWW]

The Netherlands actually has one of the best mobile networks on mainland Europe, according to tests.
Buses where already connected to that network as most operators run their communication with the control room via mobile phone nowadays. Has also disadvantages: there have been (rare) cases where services were stopped due to the phone network being down. (Especially when the backup network for emergency calls didn't work)

AFAIK the check isn't done while you're holding your card in front of the reader, but immediately afterwards. Thus when a card is blocked it might allow one transaction but after that it's registered as a blocked card in the OV pay system.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

I suspect that there is nothing as clever as that in the UK.

 

[johncrossley]

When you touch in on London buses, you can normally see evidence of that within a few minutes in your online account, so those ticket machines must be transmitting the passenger data all the time. It has been like that since contactless started in 2012.

 

[Deroro]

AFAIK it takes credit cards. You can also buy a ticket online (credit cards accepted).
NS ticket machines have been accepting credit cards for quite some years now. Additionally, Maestro will be phased out everywhere out starting the second half of this year, which will improve Visa/MasterCard Debit and possibly also Visa/MasterCard credit cards (they work the same technically).

Apologies for a non-rail related question, but presumably then large stores, Albert Heijn say, that do not currently accept foreign debit cards will do so in the future. Is there any word on the timescale of when this will happen and is there an expectation that small independent retailers will follow suit? I spend every Christmas and Easter in NL and heretofore have had to pay cash for the turkey and leg of lamb at the local butcher's shop.

 

[AdamWW]

Apologies for a non-rail related question, but presumably then large stores, Albert Heijn say, that do not currently accept foreign debit cards will do so in the future. Is there any word on the timescale of when this will happen and is there an expectation that small independent retailers will follow suit? I spend every Christmas and Easter in NL and heretofore have had to pay cash for the turkey and leg of lamb at the local butcher's shop.

I had no trouble last year using my UK Visa credit card in the Netherlands, and that included several visits to Albert Heijn as well as using NS and RET ticket machines.

I don't know about debit cards though.

 

[DanielB]

. Is there any word on the timescale of when this will happen and is there an expectation that small independent retailers will follow suit?

As rvdborgt states, phasing out starts in July this year. As Dutch customers who lost their card or have an expired card will receive a Mastercard or Visa debit card as of that month, shops should have their systems converted by that moment.

I had no trouble last year using my UK Visa credit card in the Netherlands, and that included several visits to Albert Heijn as well as using NS and RET ticket machines.

When the creditcard works, the debit version should also work. But it really depends where you're using it. AH to Go accepts creditcards for example, but at Albert Heijn it might differ between stores.
When I wanted to activate a new Visa creditcard last summer it wouldn't work at an NS ticket machine, but worked fine at AH to Go.

 

[johncrossley]

According to

The Dutch are ready for 'new' debit cards - Betaalvereniging Nederland

Foreign visitors and Dutch nationals can use 'new' debit cards from the Debit Mastercard and Visa Debit brands to pay in most Dutch shops.

www.betaalvereniging.nl

systems have been recently changed so that most shops should now be able to accept foreign debit cards, although it doesn't say anything about credit cards.

Foreign visitors and Dutch nationals can use ‘new’ debit cards from the Debit Mastercard and Visa Debit brands to pay in most Dutch shops. This marks the successful completion of the Debit Card Acceptance project (Project DCA). This project of the Dutch Payments Association, together with retailers, terminal suppliers, transaction processors, banks, Visa and Mastercard, aimed to adapt or replace the majority of payment terminals in the Netherlands to accept these ‘new’ debit cards by the end of 2022.

 

[rvdborgt]

Apologies for a non-rail related question, but presumably then large stores, Albert Heijn say, that do not currently accept foreign debit cards will do so in the future.

AFAIK they do accept foreign debit cards but probably only Maestro and V-Pay. And if @johncrossley is correct, then they should now also accept Debit Mastercard and Visa Debit.

 

[TFN]

I’ve made 3 trips in 2022 and 2023 to the Netherlands. My UK mastercard debit card worked fine at both Albert Heijn and NS ticket machines.

 

[philg999]

I’ve made 3 trips in 2022 and 2023 to the Netherlands. My UK mastercard debit card worked fine at both Albert Heijn and NS ticket machines.

My family came to visit last august and were not able to use uk debit or credit cards in the normal Albert Heijn stores in Amsterdam (only the to-go ones and at the airport). They also visited last week, and *were* now able to do so. Rollout of the new card readers and back office systems across all retailers is ongoing and expected to be complete by June.

 

[rvdborgt]

I’ve made 3 trips in 2022 and 2023 to the Netherlands. My UK mastercard debit card worked fine at both Albert Heijn and NS ticket machines.

The NS ticket machines have been accepting these cards for quite some years now: since they started accepting credit cards.

 

[johncrossley]

It is a long time since foreign cards have been a problem in the Netherlands for public transport. In recent years the only issue has been paying in certain shops, but cash is usually accepted in those places if you don't have a card that works.

 

[_toommm_]

No problem at all whilst I was there for a week in January with my Curve card (issued as a MasterCard Debit)

 

[dutchflyer]

Apologies for a non-rail related question, but presumably then large stores, Albert Heijn say, that do not currently accept foreign debit cards will do so in the future. Is there any word on the timescale of when this will happen and is there an expectation that small independent retailers will follow suit? I spend every Christmas and Easter in NL and heretofore have had to pay cash for the turkey and leg of lamb at the local butcher's shop.

Every shop(holder) can set its own rules-to the detriment of many a German this can also include; ´No cash!´ anymore. Much more widespread is that small local shops do not want to deal with all the (as they see it) potential problems/extra cost that obscure foreign cards may impose or cause and hence simply refuse these. Large chainshops like AH (compare to Tesco/Morrison in UK) do the sums and weight expense against potential small profits-hence it was limited to those areas where tourists are abundant. Cards from IN the EU cannot be discriminated against. But non-card devices, like on fone etc. were quite slow to implement here and are often still not possible. (this mostly from my brother who works in retail-advice)
Here in NL we have a long history of not accepting creditcards, as quite early payments by card were all done by local bank-debit-cards (in fact I think we were among the first to introduce that way of payment). And history can be stubborn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

And as for payments direct by card for transport: since 1/3 NS has decided to block cards if there is NO checkIN if one uses it for a try checkOUT-which of course is only possible as such in gates. This to prevent many potential errors.

 

[johncrossley]

From 20 June you will no longer be able to buy tickets from the bus driver on GVB (the municipal operator for Amsterdam). You haven't been able to buy a ticket in cash for a few years now but you were still able to buy a ticket from the driver by card. For single fares there is no longer any point now that there is OVPay and that is presumably the reason for stopping driver ticket sales now. You can still get day tickets from the tram conductor, or you can use the app or a machine. There are still many shops that sell paper tickets in cash.

https://www.gvb.nl/en/pay

No more ticket sales by the driver​

From 20 June you can no longer buy tickets from the driver​

From then on, you can only buy a ticket from the tram conductor. On trams without a conductor and on (night)buses it will no longer be possible to buy a paper ticket. We are happy to explain why and in which other ways you can pay for your public transport trip.

Why still buy a paper ticket with a debit card if there is an easier way?​

Now you can simply check in and out with your debit card. And in the GVB app you can easily buy an hour or day ticket. These are easy, fast and often more affordable ways of paying for your public transport trip. It is also sustainable, as it saves paper. In addition, it ensures fewer transaction failures and delays, making our services more reliable.

 

[sprunt]

Just going back to the discussion about 1st/2nd class on the first page, how does the regular OV chipcard system know if you've travelled in first class?

Also, I'm delighted by the news that I'll be able to use my Monzo card in AH next time I visit the Netherlands! (Although I secretly think Jumbo is better but they aren't as ubiquitous.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just going back to the discussion about 1st/2nd class on the first page, how does the regular OV chipcard system know if you've travelled in first class?

Switching classes without an NS season ticket​

Do you have a valid OV-chipkaart but no NS season ticket? You can still upgrade to 1st class.

1. Head to an NS ticket machine
2. Hold your OV-chipkaart against the card reader.
3. Select 'Change class' on the screen
4. Select '1st class today'
5. Hold your OV-chipkaart against the card reader again.

Your 1st-class upgrade will take effect immediately and last until 4.00 am. When you check out, we'll calculate your fare automatically.

I guess the contactless system doesn't have the ability to store that flag (yet).

Switching classes: 1st class upgrade | Customer service | NS

If you have an NS Flex season ticket, you can switch classes every day. Or upgrade your on-balance season ticket to 1st class. Read more.

www.ns.nl

 

[DanielB]

Just going back to the discussion about 1st/2nd class on the first page, how does the regular OV chipcard system know if you've travelled in first class?

In the original system you had to activate your card for NS, which placed a product "Reizen op saldo 1e klas" or "Reizen op saldo 2e klas" on your card. The activation process is no longer needed, but apparently changing the standard setting is still possible.
Most people will however have some form of subscription setting the travel class when it's the old type subscription using credit from the card.

With NS flex, the class (with or without subscription) is set in the backoffice instead of on the card. This allows for changing class till 15 minutes after checking in.
In this case the guard doesn't see the travel class, but registers in which class the customer is at the moment tickets are checked. It's then checked in the backoffice if the customer was travelling in the correct class and if not a 20 euro fine is invoiced automatically. Probably OVpay will work in a similar way in the future.

 

[dutchflyer]

Yes, thats it-so you dedicated 1st cl. users can now feel discriminated against. As for now paying with cr-cards (or any foreign card accepted) will always lead to paying the full 2nd cl price. One reason behind this is that NS-as it was some 12-15 yrs ago when that national chipcard was introduced, thought it could in its own isolated sferes set its own rules-and had to be faced to reality by the ministry. This new direct payment system has also been introduced by the various bus/tram companies-even though the odd local railcompany also has a tiny 1st cl. section.
There are some talks about being able to put discounts or the like tied to your bankcard (mostly useful for locals, like me) but this seems a long way going.
Being in Türkiye right now-main aim to visit some of the many new tramwaysystems, and also facing the apparent need to first chase to buy a local chipcard to load your money on to pay these low fares-well in most cities they also accept direct payment with cr/bankcards-local fares are mostly like 8-9TRL=about 30p. But then you lack the discount after changes-every new ride is the full fare-chipcards will give discounts on that. And the system with lowest fare-6,5 TRL (Izmit in Kocaeli-some 100 KM south of Istanbul) also set a tiny amount extra for this service. It always takes much longer for the green to come at the gates compared with local chipcards.
Back to home (tomorrow morning for me): in fact last yr the companies were allowed to raise their KM-fares a tiny bit more to allow for now selling much fewer higher priced single tickets. But as these flat fare local tickets cannot be too high priced-it is indeed the case that for very long rides it works out cheaper to pay for it as using the chipcard-except when you change to other local systems. RET and that now metro line to the Hook where the GB-ships dock is the best known case for that. Cash payments on bus/tram have been abolished quite some time ago-as such in theory NS accepts money as coins only in machines-with a MAX of 20, which also prohibits you to buy more expensive tickets-only the 20 or so remaining counters can.

 

[crablab]

Have they resolved the issues with "card clash" when trying to scan a mobile Interrail pass at the gateline?

 

[rvdborgt]

Have they resolved the issues with "card clash" when trying to scan a mobile Interrail pass at the gateline?

The rail planner app (that holds the mobile pass) has been able to suppress NFC functionality since sometime last year.
The DB Navigator still doesn't do that AFAIK. I can understand though that creating a workaround for somebody else's design fault isn't very high on their priority list.

 

[DanielB]

There are some talks about being able to put discounts or the like tied to your bankcard (mostly useful for locals, like me) but this seems a long way going.

This actually is one of the first next steps, starting with age related discounts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The rail planner app (that holds the mobile pass) has been able to suppress NFC functionality since sometime last year.
The DB Navigator still doesn't do that AFAIK. I can understand though that creating a workaround for somebody else's design fault isn't very high on their priority list.

The faulty design is having NFC and barcode readers in the same place on the gate, to be honest. UK gatelines don't have that issue. Ticketer bus ticket machines do, and like there it causes totally unnecessary problems.

 

[rvdborgt]

The faulty design is having NFC and barcode readers in the same place on the gate, to be honest.

That's exactly what I meant

 

[AlexNL]

The faulty design is having NFC and barcode readers in the same place on the gate, to be honest.

Which follows on from the OV-chipkaart being among the very first systems to be rolled out to a railway system on a national scale.

In the very first design, barcode readers were not envisaged at all. NS wrongfully assumed that everyone would travel on smartcards, even international passengers. When they learned that that wouldn't happen, the readers were retrofitted with barcode scanning functionality.

If memory serves me right that was in roughly the 2008-2010 era, back when people still printed their tickets en-masse and phones did not normally have NFC readers built-in. Let alone the phone being capable of fully replacing a bank card. By now technology has simply caught up with and overtaken the design of the gatelines, and a design which seemed adequate more than a decade ago now suffers from flaws.

The smartphone OS developers have added methods to suppress NFC payment requests (the NS app implements this) but it's up to developers to change their apps to use that.

 

[DanielB]

Actually, in the Netherlands its exactly the other way around then. The gatelines have barcode and NFC readers in the same place, but buses in regions using barcodes for tickets have them in a different place.

Barcode readers are actually at the bottom of the card readers or at the bus driver's onboard computer, so on buses there's no conflict.