Near miss on an Oyster

[VauxhallandI]

I witness a near PF this morning.

The Southbury loop line was down due to a bridge strike.

Folks were being directed to the mainline.

A lady whose first language was not English had her Oyster card checked on the train after boarding at Waltham Cross.

The RPI stated she had not checked in. I understood from her that she had only just put £20 on it and she said she had tapped in.

She got her daughter on the phone and communications were made between the three parties.

On the platform at Tottenham Hale they second RPI was also telling her she was getting a PF.

Once again the woman got the daughter on the phone and this time he understood ten message.

The lady had gone to Theo and tapped in, was then informed of the shut line and walked to Waltham across where she entered the station and tapped in again.

Obviously this was actually recorded as a tap out.

The second RPI decided to "let her off" (grrrr not my favourite statement).

The point I guess is that it is not out of the world to think one should tap in at a station and this is the message drummed in to people with threats of courts etc.

Just a good example that not everyone is a ticketing expert and there is a real world out there that gets a hard time when they aren't really evil.

I was at Cheshunt this morning and a lady approached the gate line and said "I've up just tapped in and the trains are cancelled, I want to leave what should I do?"

The gate line chap said "I don't really know about oyster you'll have to ask someone else"

It's the double standards that winds me up, he's allowed to be clueless but we aren't allowed to forget a single line of the terms.

Why was he on an oyster station if he wasn't trained? You wouldn't do that with a ticket office person or a driver.

 

[Sleepy]

Easy answer : most TOC did not want oyster use allowed, and will only do the barest minimum - gateline staff probably told green light ok & red light bad and that's it ?

 

[Be3G]

I've often wondered about this too; I use Turkey Street/Enfield Lock/Brimsdown stations, which are similarly ungated. With ticket gates the behaviour for same station exits is known, but I don't know how this works – if at all – with stations that only have standalone validators. (The different being, of course, that gates know whether you're entering or leaving, whereas validators don't.) So goodness knows what the lady originally boarding at Theobalds Grove should have done!

 

[jon0844]

I was at Cheshunt this morning and a lady approached the gate line and said "I've up just tapped in and the trains are cancelled, I want to leave what should I do?"

The gate line chap said "I don't really know about oyster you'll have to ask someone else"

It's the double standards that winds me up, he's allowed to be clueless but we aren't allowed to forget a single line of the terms.

Why was he on an oyster station if he wasn't trained? You wouldn't do that with a ticket office person or a driver.

They do seem to know very little (or nothing) about Oyster at Cheshunt. I don't even think you can do anything relating to Oyster at the ticket office either, nor the AGA machine inside the ticket hall. Just top up on the TVM outside, which isn't even immediately obvious when you approach the station if you didn't look at the right time.

As you say, it's odd that it's okay for staff to not know things when you can't make the same mistake.

I have to assume that when London Overground starts running to Cheshunt, TfL will try and get AGA to understand a bit more.

At Broxbourne, I don't think it's much better.

I seriously hope GTR rolls out Oyster without forgetting to train staff, or provide the facilities to manage Oyster from all TVMs and ticket office machines. I have to assume that WILL happen if they're also introducing their own smartcard.

So goodness knows what the lady originally boarding at Theobalds Grove should have done!

Presumably tapped a validator again to touch out, although that could have given an error depending on when it was done?

 

[Be3G]

Presumably tapped a validator again to touch out, although that could have given an error depending on when it was done?

Exactly. Perhaps the best option would have actually been to make no further touches after touching in at Theobalds Grove, instead joining a train at Waltham Cross with the TEO touch-in still active. I do wish there were official guidance on the matter.

 

[yorkie]

Why was he on an oyster station if he wasn't trained?

Because they can get away with it. Who is going to make the TOCs train their staff? There is no ombudsman. There is no body with any actual powers to represent passengers' interests. Who is going to make them behave? No-one can!

 

[hassaanhc]

Exactly. Perhaps the best option would have actually been to make no further touches after touching in at Theobalds Grove, instead joining a train at Waltham Cross with the TEO touch-in still active. I do wish there were official guidance on the matter.

Yeah I think that is the best option. In the past, me and a friend have remained touched in on the DLR when briefly getting off to go and get something.
These days I'm willing to pay £10-15 per month extra to put a season ticket on it, removing almost all issues with maximum fares and indeed the issue mentioned above (as long as it is inside the zones of the travelcard). What annoys me a lot is the inconsistency in starting another journey a few minutes after finishing a previous one. Ending up with two maximum fares for exceeding the maximum journey time by less than 5 minutes was particularly sour, especially as it'd joined two separate journeys. And I've found that touching on a ticket machine can sometimes split them, but not always (best is to use a bus). No wonder why I prefer paper daily tickets to Oyster PAYG.

 

[MikeWh]

And I've found that touching on a ticket machine can sometimes split them, but not always (best is to use a bus).

I'd be interested to see proof of that having happened. Do you have journey history where two legs were not joined up when you thought they should have been?

Also, if the entry station has gates then you can enter, exit and enter again which will start a new journey as per the same station exit rules.

 

[yorkie]

Ending up with two maximum fares for exceeding the maximum journey time by less than 5 minutes was particularly sour, especially as it'd joined two separate journeys.

It's a shame the system can't automatically realise this and treat the journeys as separate, but the Oyster helpline will do that for you.

And I've found that touching on a ticket machine can sometimes split them, but not always (best is to use a bus). No wonder why I prefer paper daily tickets to Oyster PAYG.

I've never known a ticket machine do this, as MikeWh says, if you can provide examples that would be useful! I agree that touching in on a bus does break an out of station interchange (OSI) causing the two journeys to remain separate.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Also, if the entry station has gates then you can enter, exit and enter again which will start a new journey as per the same station exit rules.

I was going to mention the same station exit rules in response to an earlier post asking if there was any official guidance, but the only place I can find the details of the three possible results (depending on time taken) is now on your own website Mike.

Is the over simplification below now the only official version?

Touching in and out at the same station
If you touch in on a yellow card reader to make a journey and then decide you don't want to make it or you can't because of service disruption and touch out again to exit your Oyster card will be charged. We apply charges to discourage fare evasion. However, you may be able to get a refund if this happens. Speak to a member of staff at the station or call our Customer Services team on 0343 222 1234 to get a refund...
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-6

 

[MikeWh]

Oh dear, that's a backward step. I have no reason to believe that it has changed, just TfL trying to keep everything simple.

 

[Be3G]

I was going to mention the same station exit rules in response to an earlier post asking if there was any official guidance

I actually linked to them in an earlier post. I suspect that the same station exit rules only apply to gated stations, although I'd welcome a correction if anyone knows better. So, unfortunately, they're not applicable to the incident Johngill100 saw.

 

[MikeWh]

I actually linked to them in an earlier post. I suspect that the same station exit rules only apply to gated stations, although I'd welcome a correction if anyone knows better. So, unfortunately, they're not applicable to the incident Johngill100 saw.

Exit between 2 and 30 minutes to get a single to next station counting towards the daily cap definitely works at all stations, as does 2x incomplete journey when over 30 minutes.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes, I tapped in at Silver Street (ungated Greater Anglia station) once only to discover that the next train was cancelled. I was only going to Seven Sisters, so decided to take a bus instead and remembered the advice on here about waiting 2 minutes before touching out again, duly did so, and was charged a small amount (£1.30 IIRC). As I was going to be capping anyway I didn't follow it up.

 

[Tom B]

Easy answer : most TOC did not want oyster use allowed, and will only do the barest minimum - gateline staff probably told green light ok & red light bad and that's it ?

It's a shame that there is nobody who can oblige the TOCs to train their staff, or indeed, hold them to account in any way.

I ended up getting charged in similar circumstances before - I did think it a bit odd, surely a touch in followed very quickly by a touch out at the same place indicates that no journey has been made? Perhaps these days there are automatic refunds set up when there is disruption and people are overcharged this way.

 

[Be3G]

Exit between 2 and 30 minutes to get a single to next station counting towards the daily cap definitely works at all stations, as does 2x incomplete journey when over 30 minutes.

Yes, I tapped in at Silver Street (ungated Greater Anglia station) once only to discover that the next train was cancelled. I was only going to Seven Sisters, so decided to take a bus instead and remembered the advice on here about waiting 2 minutes before touching out again, duly did so, and was charged a small amount (£1.30 IIRC). As I was going to be capping anyway I didn't follow it up.

Good to know, thank you both. I have to admit I'd be reluctant to rely on validators working this out correctly (I once had some mishap caused by a validator getting confused between an entry and an exit), but I'm pleased to hear that validators shouldn't cause any problems with same-station exits.

 

[swt_passenger]

I actually linked to them in an earlier post. I suspect that the same station exit rules only apply to gated stations, although I'd welcome a correction if anyone knows better. So, unfortunately, they're not applicable to the incident Johngill100 saw.

Ah, I'm sorry then, I just read that as an emphasised word (rather than a link) as I went through the thread.

I did think it was worth emphasising that the info many of us are already aware of (because it is well explained on MikeWh's site) used to be on TfL's site as well. If anyone does read up on TfL's explanation they might well think the system cannot cope, whereas we know it should under certain defined circumstances.

 

[Be3G]

Yes, that is a good point. I'd initially intended to link to TfL's explanation but was baffled myself when I couldn't find it! At least we do have MikeWh's site to help with these things.

 

[PeterC]

What annoys me a lot is the inconsistency in starting another journey a few minutes after finishing a previous one.

There are lots of stories about people being caught out by OSIs when making a very short visit but when I have been "caught out" and needed to use the toilets at Harrow on the Hill which are just outside the gateline I have to pay two fares.

St James Street always annoys me as the validators are on the landing half way up the stairs. If you want to check for cancellations you need to go all the way to the platform (technically an offence) and then come back to touch in.

 

[bb21]

There are lots of stories about people being caught out by OSIs when making a very short visit but when I have been "caught out" and needed to use the toilets at Harrow on the Hill which are just outside the gateline I have to pay two fares.

You should have asked staff to be let out. I did that last time and was allowed through both ways.

OSIs don't apply if you leave a station and then go back in afterwards.

 

[island]

I've often wondered about this too; I use Turkey Street/Enfield Lock/Brimsdown stations, which are similarly ungated. With ticket gates the behaviour for same station exits is known, but I don't know how this works – if at all – with stations that only have standalone validators. (The different being, of course, that gates know whether you're entering or leaving, whereas validators don't.) So goodness knows what the lady originally boarding at Theobalds Grove should have done!

Touching a standalone validator a second time having just commenced a journey on it will be treated as a pass back and rejected (on code 23 I think). Touching it again after touching out will result in a new journey being started.

You should have asked staff to be let out. I did that last time and was allowed through both ways.

OSIs don't apply if you leave a station and then go back in afterwards.

Not in the above situation but at certain very large stations an OSI may apply between different gatelines.

 

[Be3G]

Touching a standalone validator a second time having just commenced a journey on it will be treated as a pass back and rejected (on code 23 I think). Touching it again after touching out will result in a new journey being started.

Thanks, that tallies with my own observations of watching people try to touch in more than once. So, presumably, that passback detection behaviour occurs if two touch-ins are detected within two minutes of each other, after which the standard same station exit rules apply as per a gateline. Good to know.