NBfL route 137

[Robertj21a]

I can't agree with this point.
Mercedes aren't the premium brand people like to think they are, and they haven't been since the massive cost cutting across all sectors in the early 90s. At best, they're mid-range and you can get better quality from other manufacturers.

I was talking about volume. The Citaro is the world leader in total sales.

 

[Antman]

The 507 and 521 are an indictment of Boris dogma. The whole Red Arrow concept was ahead of its time by London standards, with flat fares and reliable services unimpeded by suburban traffic disruption. As with the bendybus, one or two of the routes should have been chosen more carefully but what really killed the concept was lack of central London garage space and lack of cheap(ish) central London housing for the key workers to operate it. Those problems are further away than ever from being solved.

The 507 and 521 are fine without artics just as they were previously. Off peak loadings never justified artics anyway. The Red Arrow branding was quietly dropped sometime ago.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 507 and 521 are fine without artics just as they were previously. Off peak loadings never justified artics anyway.

The 507 and the 521 are not off-peak routes though. They never have been, so talking about off-peak loadings is pointless. Hell, they don't even run during most of the off-peak.

Stand at Chancery Lane in the evening peak and tell me that the 521 is "fine" now.

The branding got dropped ages ago, but they are still different routes to the rest of London's buses. And the fixed Citaros really don't work on them.

 

[Busaholic]

The 507 and 521 are fine without artics just as they were previously. Off peak loadings never justified artics anyway. The Red Arrow branding was quietly dropped sometime ago.

Being in a minority of one does not automatically make you wrong, but I've never come across anyone else who didn't think the artics had done a good job on the 507 and 521. The very nature of the routes meant they were peak hour orientated and offpeak frequencies were much lower or non-existent. With the artic withdrawal the 507 in particular had to have many extra peak hour buses inserted into the timetable, making it the most peak-centric route on the entire network with all the economic consequences of idle buses offpeak and employment of extra drivers just for the peaks.

 

[Robertj21a]

Hopefully, a new mayor will review the silliness that was Boris. A manufacturer of artic buses might yet be persuaded to recreate a RHD version, primarily for use on specific London routes.

 

[radamfi]

Scania made quite a few artic buses for the UK market, for example for Cardiff, West Midlands and First Manchester. Not sure if they still make them in RHD. Manchester route 135 has been through two generations of bendies. It will be interesting to see what they replace them with.

 

[starrymarkb]

Scania made quite a few artic buses for the UK market, for example for Cardiff, West Midlands and First Manchester. Not sure if they still make them in RHD. Manchester route 135 has been through two generations of bendies. It will be interesting to see what they replace them with.

They don't make any in RHD now - The replacements for the Rigid and Artic Omnicity/Link are going to be LHD only. If you want a Scania bus now it'll be an Irizar i3 (which Scania UK are importing)

 

[Antman]

The 507 and the 521 are not off-peak routes though. They never have been, so talking about off-peak loadings is pointless. Hell, they don't even run during most of the off-peak.

Stand at Chancery Lane in the evening peak and tell me that the 521 is "fine" now.

The branding got dropped ages ago, but they are still different routes to the rest of London's buses. And the fixed Citaros really don't work on them.

Hell they do.......the 507 is a 7 day a week service now!

Just about all buses to Waterloo in the evening peak are rammed
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Being in a minority of one does not automatically make you wrong, but I've never come across anyone else who didn't think the artics had done a good job on the 507 and 521. The very nature of the routes meant they were peak hour orientated and offpeak frequencies were much lower or non-existent. With the artic withdrawal the 507 in particular had to have many extra peak hour buses inserted into the timetable, making it the most peak-centric route on the entire network with all the economic consequences of idle buses offpeak and employment of extra drivers just for the peaks.

I'm sure I am not in a minority of one, the frequency on both the 507 and 521 have been increased, surely that is a positive?
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Hopefully, a new mayor will review the silliness that was Boris. A manufacturer of artic buses might yet be persuaded to recreate a RHD version, primarily for use on specific London routes.

And then another mayor will see the folly of it and withdraw them, talk about history repeating itself.

I really do not get this fixation about bendybuses.

 

[Busaholic]

[QUOT


I'm sure I am not in a minority of one, the frequency on both the 507 and 521 have been increased, surely that is a positive?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And then another mayor will see the folly of it and withdraw them, talk about history repeating itself.

I really do not get this fixation about bendybuses.[/QUOTE]

So let's convert the 507 and 521 to mini Pointer Dart and double the numbers of buses needed again.

I for one am not obsessed with artics: to be brutally honest after the Red Arrow routes I became more of a sceptic, particularly with the 12 and 73 conversions and the substantial decrease in peak frequencies, later repeated with the 38, but as I came to use them more, particularly in the peaks, I came to realise their advantages, especially for people struggling with children,pushchairs and for elderly and less mobile people, so my prejudices were set aside. Too many see bendybuses in black and white terms rather than shades of grey IMO

 

[radamfi]

I really do not get this fixation about bendybuses.

You could similarly ask why double deckers are so rare outside Britain and former colonies. It must be a cultural, rather than logical thing. Berlin is the main exception to this rule, as they have a lot of double deckers, but they are tri-axle vehicles with three sets of doors to minimise dwell times, one of the main problems with double deckers. Tri-axles are also standard in the Far East former colonies. Britain and Ireland are almost unique in having just two-axle double deckers.

The main excuse is that low bridges are not so common in the UK compared to other countries. However, double deckers for touring purposes and for long distance scheduled buses are quite common outside the UK. Dwell times are not such an issue on long distance services.

Most places run bendy buses without controversy.

 

[starrymarkb]

Should point out that Double deck tour coaches are 4m (as that's what the restrictions are on the continent) so they are shorter then our buses (even low height ones like Stagecoach and Arriva use)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I for one am not obsessed with artics: to be brutally honest after the Red Arrow routes I became more of a sceptic

I came to realise their advantages, especially for people struggling with children,pushchairs and for elderly and less mobile people, so my prejudices were set aside. Too many see bendybuses in black and white terms rather than shades of grey IMO

This.

The artics had big flaws, as anyone who saw several of them bunched along Oxford Street will tell you. The biggest flaw was how long they were. Some of the converted routes were not suitable for them.

But they also had big advantages, their ability to shift huge numbers of people in the centre was a very big advantage. Even with the increased frequencies the deckers just can't shift as many people, especially when you factor in all the people doing short hops (e.g. Kings Cross-Angel, Euston-Oxford Street) who simply will not move upstairs.

It's interesting you mention the 73, Busaholic. The frequency wasn't quite high enough with the artics and there is an increased frequency with the deckers (though the increase isn't as daft as the PVR of 70 on the 38). The payoff is that the 73 no longer goes to Seven Sisters.

 

[Antman]

Much is made about artics being able to load large numbers quickly but the disadvantages are conveniently overlooked, if the driver is not checking passes and oysters then there is no way of knowing how many people have paid and once away from the busy stops their dwell time is often longer because there are so many standees, often people near the doors had to get off to allow others off and then get back on again. Certainly the long common sections of the 36 and 436 and the 53 and 453 showed they were no quicker than other buses, in fact when the 36 was operated with the good old Routemasters is what considerably quicker.

 

[Busaholic]

Much is made about artics being able to load large numbers quickly but the disadvantages are conveniently overlooked, if the driver is not checking passes and oysters then there is no way of knowing how many people have paid and once away from the busy stops their dwell time is often longer because there are so many standees, often people near the doors had to get off to allow others off and then get back on again. Certainly the long common sections of the 36 and 436 and the 53 and 453 showed they were no quicker than other buses, in fact when the 36 was operated with the good old Routemasters is what considerably quicker.

I think we're going round in circles with this. If you think the artics are the fount of all evil you're not going to change your position now. My last word on atrics v NB4L in this thread is to just to say re paying fares and checking Oysters that this can be done on the latter at the front entrance but not the middle or rear, so guess which ones the fare evaders are going to use?!

 

[Antman]

I think we're going round in circles with this. If you think the artics are the fount of all evil you're not going to change your position now. My last word on atrics v NB4L in this thread is to just to say re paying fares and checking Oysters that this can be done on the latter at the front entrance but not the middle or rear, so guess which ones the fare evaders are going to use?!

Yes we probably are going around in circles, I'll just add that if there is a 'conductor' on the NB4L they will guard the rear entrance and I think the centre door should be exit only with the rear entrance kept closed when in OPO mode..........sorted

 

[LateThanNever]

I think we're going round in circles with this. If you think the artics are the fount of all evil you're not going to change your position now. My last word on atrics v NB4L in this thread is to just to say re paying fares and checking Oysters that this can be done on the latter at the front entrance but not the middle or rear, so guess which ones the fare evaders are going to use?!

I tend to think bendi buses are the fount of all evil - purely on the basis that if you are waiting at a bus stop for a 'real' bus and a bendi turns up it is decidedly chaotic at that bus stop when a 'real' bus is behind it. Not only is it often not clear whether or not the 'real' bus has stopped or will stop, the temptation is to rush along to board the 'real' bus which may or may not consider it has arrived at the bus stop. If it does you may well be too late, if it doesn't you have to walk back to the bus stop till the bendi moves. If two bendis arrive together it is even more chaotic and it just serves to prolong the journey times of non bendi passengers. While I agree the Boris bus is vanity they are an improvement on the bendi!
It is also definitely unsuited to the UK's mostly narrow streets and tight bends!

 

[Deerfold]

Yes we probably are going around in circles, I'll just add that if there is a 'conductor' on the NB4L they will guard the rear entrance and I think the centre door should be exit only with the rear entrance kept closed when in OPO mode..........sorted

Conductors on the NB4L don't check tickets.

Haven't you just lost your speed of boarding if everyone has to get on the front like a normal bus?

 

[starrymarkb]

Most of the Geneva city routes use artics. They manage fine through the tight parts of the old town! Boarding is through centre and rear doors, driver's door is exit only! (Tickets are sold by machines at the stops, and regular ticket checks with high fines (£80 on the spot, double if you can't pay there and then) ensure that the vast majority of passengers have tickets) - That was the issue - Ticket checks were rare so people would chance it. The same will happen with the Boris Master if the chance of a check is low.

The route out to Hermance which is basically UK B-Road once out of the city but with tight spots in villages, uses Bi-Artics (Boris would have a heart attack at one of those!)

 

[Antman]

Conductors on the NB4L don't check tickets.

Haven't you just lost your speed of boarding if everyone has to get on the front like a normal bus?

Conductors do normally challenge (in a polite way) anybody who gets on at the back without touching in their oyster.

Faster boarding cannot justify the potential loss of revenue.

 

[Deerfold]

Conductors do normally challenge (in a polite way) anybody who gets on at the back without touching in their oyster.

Perhaps it varies by route - I can't I've seen any do that on the 24 or the 390 which are the NBfL routes I catch most often. Even if they do, what can they do about it? Revenue protection is not officially part of their job description. Does it annoy those boarding with a paper ticket who are not used to having to show it if boarding at the back?

Faster boarding cannot justify the potential loss of revenue.

Even if the faster boarding saves more money due to fewer buses being required?

 

[Antman]

Perhaps it varies by route - I can't I've seen any do that on the 24 or the 390 which are the NBfL routes I catch most often. Even if they do, what can they do about it? Revenue protection is not officially part of their job description. Does it annoy those boarding with a paper ticket who are not used to having to show it if boarding at the back?



Even if the faster boarding saves more money due to fewer buses being required?

They can do the same as a driver and not allow the bus to move unless the person gets off.

I really don't think faster boarding is ever going to make that much difference.

 

[radamfi]

TfL have taken the opportunity given by the introduction of the NBfL to reintroduce free boarding lost as a result of the scrapping of bendies. The new bus meets both the Mayor's political requirements and TfL's operational desires.
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They can do the same as a driver and not allow the bus to move unless the person gets off.

I really don't think faster boarding is ever going to make that much difference.

It is not really practical under crowded conditions as the conductor can't check people boarding at the middle and back doors at the same time.

It should really be the inspector's job to check tickets. The driver should concentrate on driving. Free boarding with random checks is considered acceptable for trams.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Conductors do normally challenge (in a polite way) anybody who gets on at the back without touching in their oyster.

Only when the conductors are there.

On conductor-less NBfL routes, and on the 507 and 521, it is for the driver to notice. Just as it was with the bendies.

 

[Deerfold]

They can do the same as a driver and not allow the bus to move unless the person gets off.

I really don't think faster boarding is ever going to make that much difference.

Not without seriously rewriting their job description. In any case drivers will rarely do this as bonus payments for bus services in London are based on even service levels.

 

[radamfi]

Checking tickets when boarding doesn't make much difference when you have relatively low levels of demand assuming you have smartcards, but it does when you have large crowds.

The policy on Dutch buses is similarly pragmatic. Like London, almost everyone boards with a smartcard so on most buses you have to board by the driver. However, on many bendy buses and on most trams you can normally board at any door and it is your responsibility to touch in. Utrecht, like Geneva (mentioned above), has bi-artics because of the large number of students going to the university. Imagine how long it would take to check all those tickets!

However the Dutch system is actually draconian by European standards. Free boarding on city services in other European countries is the norm.

What is really stupid is the situation in the UK outside London where paying the driver in cash when boarding is still very common.

 

[Busaholic]

I have a concessionary pass issued by Cornwall Council valid on London buses. I have nothing to touch in, but I see no reason why I should not board by any entrance convenient to me. I asked a friendly-looking Revenue Inspector about this in the last days of artics and he assured me this would apply with NB4L but any official wording I've seen on this seems vague, unless anyone knows any different. After all, unlike Cornwall, no paper ticket gets issued for the journey.

 

[Deerfold]

I have a concessionary pass issued by Cornwall Council valid on London buses. I have nothing to touch in, but I see no reason why I should not board by any entrance convenient to me. I asked a friendly-looking Revenue Inspector about this in the last days of artics and he assured me this would apply with NB4L but any official wording I've seen on this seems vague, unless anyone knows any different. After all, unlike Cornwall, no paper ticket gets issued for the journey.

Do you not touch your ENTCS pass on the reader?

Whether tickets are issued for ENTCS seems to vary by council area and/or operator - on routes past my house 2 buses an hour will issue a ticket, the other 5 won't.

 

[Busaholic]

Do you not touch your ENTCS pass on the reader?

Whether tickets are issued for ENTCS seems to vary by council area and/or operator - on routes past my house 2 buses an hour will issue a ticket, the other 5 won't.

In London the driver nods (or not) and presses a button. Once or twice the pass has been scrutinised, but as I get older it seems ever more likely that I am that decrepit!

 

[Deerfold]

In London the driver nods (or not) and presses a button. Once or twice the pass has been scrutinised, but as I get older it seems ever more likely that I am that decrepit!

Usually people just put them on the reader - they should only need to look at them if for some reason the reader doesn't work.

 

[Robertj21a]

I thought the Oyster readers didn't recognise the national pass ?