• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Navvy Questions

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Andy873

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2017
Messages
1,414
This episode of Time Team on Youtube may be of interest. Basically a 3 day dig into the remains of a Navvy camp at Rise Hill in Cumbria on the Settle and Carlisle line
@Morayshire, Thanks so much for finding this, it's a fascinating episode for me and answers many questions. In it it's said the wages for a navvy / labourer in 1870 was 3s 6d which seems to be the going rate for that type of work. I looked around in the newspapers for labourers wanted and several times I came across the same wages, 3 and 6.

Question everyone - Was this location a place where navvy huts were located? Look for Tottleworth Lee Bridge, just to its right is a strange bulge and I've wondered about this strange shape ever since I first saw it ten years ago...


Depending on how you measure the area, I can get anything from around 12,000 square feet to 7,500. It might have been necessary due to the geology, but this would have been an ideal location as it's about two thirds along the cutting (Norden cutting). This was the second cutting heading west, and I've been told the huts would have been moved to where the next works had to commence.

What does anyone think please?
 

Colh

New Member
Joined
16 Jun 2025
Messages
1
Location
Saughtree - Scottish Borders
Probably won't help to answer any of your questions but I live at an 1862 (now closed) railway station in the Scottish Borders. The 1861 census has a Navvie camp. It consisted of 21 Huts and housed 164 people including 3 grocers so there must have been a shop/s from which provisions could be purchased. The nearest large town was Hawick (over 16 miles away). They were building the station and Viaduct over Dawston Burn. Masons, Master Masons, Carters as well as Labourers were present. I have not (as yet determined the exact location of the camp though but assume it was down by the stream at the foot of the hill from the station.
 

Andy873

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2017
Messages
1,414
@Colh, Welcome to the forum!

Probably won't help to answer any of your questions but I live at an 1862 (now closed) railway station in the Scottish Borders.
It does help actually, as they say "it's all grease to the mill".

Have you looked on the National Library of Scotland website? They have lots of historic maps you can browse for free and even a slider bar so you can see what's there today near the viaduct. I found a trace of a lane in a farmer's field where the huts were in Great Harwood.

If you need any help, let me know!

Andy.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,005
Location
Up the creek
Probably won't help to answer any of your questions but I live at an 1862 (now closed) railway station in the Scottish Borders. The 1861 census has a Navvie camp. It consisted of 21 Huts and housed 164 people including 3 grocers so there must have been a shop/s from which provisions could be purchased. The nearest large town was Hawick (over 16 miles away). They were building the station and Viaduct over Dawston Burn. Masons, Master Masons, Carters as well as Labourers were present. I have not (as yet determined the exact location of the camp though but assume it was down by the stream at the foot of the hill from the station.

Unfortunately, the 25” maps were surveyed in 1858, just too early for railway related work to show, and 1896, by which time any temporary works would have faded. Your guess as to the camp’s location seems the most likely, but upstream from the site of the bridge might be preferred to avoid muck from the construction getting in the drinking water. The shops were probably just huts put up by the contractor or camp followers for the duration of the camp, rather than permanent establishments.

The 1863 6” map does not show enough detail. It is just possible that the camp was on the area on the south side of the line east of the bridge. There is not enough detail to tell and this might have been just a spoil tip.
 

Andy873

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2017
Messages
1,414
Pedant mode: they don't say that, they say "It's all grist to the mill".
You're probably right.

The 1863 6” map does not show enough detail. It is just possible that the camp was on the area on the south side of the line east of the bridge. There is not enough detail to tell and this might have been just a spoil tip.
It's the old date of the maps problem again, I think many of us would love to simply pull up a detailed map of any particular year out of a hat, which of course is not possible.

The census details - again you have to be lucky. For me, the 1871 census is almost ideal, I have a list now of 47 workers who have specifically come to build the loop line at Great Harwood and these are my findings:

Of the 47 workers, 61% are English, 26% Irish, and 13% Welsh. The nationalities are mixed when it comes to housing, but not by the type of work they do.

The Labourers live with labourers, navvies with navvies and excavators with excavators. The rations are 3 labourers to every navvy, and two navvies to every excavator. 37 live in the town itself on various streets, and 10 live in wooden huts. The locomotive engine driver and fireman both share a house in town and are both from North Wales.

The wooden huts:

These are very interesting and they are not located where I thought they might be as I was only concentrating of the railway side of things. They are first recorded in the 1841 census, there was at that time only a few huts and housed local people, but by 1871 this has grown into a large community, 1881 still shows them and by 1891 it's all gone.

The town went under a transformation from 1864 onwards as it was cleaned up together with a new dam, housing and some additional cotton mills, all of this required extra labour to undertake the work, hence the huts and in 1871 It would have been a walk of 0.75 miles into town. Close enough to be convenient and far enough away from the town not to cause problems.

The 1871 census location puts these huts in a field North East of the town and I decided to see if they were any traces left. Using the side by side option on the National Library of Scotland site I can see clear traces of a lane, and disturbances in the field even though it's been ploughed many times over the years.

This community had a butcher and even some sort of a pub but no bakery or grocers.

As I've mentioned before, it looks like many growing towns in Britain, from the mid 1800s had these communities of wooden huts. Finding them in the middle of nowhere is a tough one.

Question: If you have a group of people with various skills constructing a viaduct across a river and one goes missing, wouldn't someone know who it is? I have just come across a newspaper report of an unidentified body found under a sleeper at the viaduct works site and yet no one knows who he is?
 

eldomtom2

On Moderation
Joined
6 Oct 2018
Messages
2,386
Question: If you have a group of people with various skills constructing a viaduct across a river and one goes missing, wouldn't someone know who it is? I have just come across a newspaper report of an unidentified body found under a sleeper at the viaduct works site and yet no one knows who he is?
Navvies often did not know each other's legal names (as opposed to nicknames), and the transient nature of navvy life means that it might have been hard to definitely state someone who had gone missing was the corpse who had been discovered.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,558
Location
Surrey
Question: If you have a group of people with various skills constructing a viaduct across a river and one goes missing, wouldn't someone know who it is? I have just come across a newspaper report of an unidentified body found under a sleeper at the viaduct works site and yet no one knows who he is?
AIUI many navvies were known by nicknames, so their actual birth names may not have been accurately recorded. No NI numbers in the 19th century.

Of course, you may have stumbled across a potential story line for "Silent Witness".....! :)
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,488
Location
Powys
There are some interesting facts about the navvies and their way of life in the autobiography of David Davies of Llandinam.He was generally considered a "good boss" and many of his employees followed him down to South Wales and the coal mines, railways and docks he built there.
There are also some interesting facts in various books about the "Navvy Village" that was built for the construction of the Ealn Valley dams. This had a school, shops, a chapel and a medical centre
 

trebor79

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
4,908
Yes, I've heard of the type of beer, I believe it was called "weak beer" that even children drank instead of potentially contaminated water.
It was called small beer and was often brewers using spent grains from brewing "proper" beer.
Basically flavoured water rendered safe to drink by the boiling process, and the alcohol content would have served to prevent bugs growing in it.
This is the origin of the phrase "small beer".
 

Andy873

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2017
Messages
1,414
Of course, you may have stumbled across a potential story line for "Silent Witness".....! :)
Good one!

It seems he's identified a couple of days later by a labour who states the deceased was a shoemaker by trade and from South Wales. Wonder if this is coincidence that he's found at the viaduct worksite, or would shoemakers be allowed on site from time to time?

The article about this man being found also confirms several things that I've been searching for over the years and never found, that at the viaduct in October 1870 (six months in) they were using a railway crane, one if not more of the columns were being built and finally I now have proof of an actual person who helped to build the viaduct.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,005
Location
Up the creek
Good one!

It seems he's identified a couple of days later by a labour who states the deceased was a shoemaker by trade and from South Wales. Wonder if this is coincidence that he's found at the viaduct worksite, or would shoemakers be allowed on site from time to time?

The article about this man being found also confirms several things that I've been searching for over the years and never found, that at the viaduct in October 1870 (six months in) they were using a railway crane, one if not more of the columns were being built and finally I now have proof of an actual person who helped to build the viaduct.

It could be that he was an out of work shoemaker who was working as a navvy, possibly only short-term or possibly until he could get back to his trade, or he could be an itinerant shoemaker who went from worksite to worksite repairing shoes and boots for the navvies. I think that it was quite normal for all sorts of tradesmen to travel from site to site offering services or goods that might not be otherwise available in remote areas.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,362
Location
Yorks
Seeking medical treatment was expensive so most wouldn't bother, even shelter in huts was an expense some couldn't afford so they'd sleep in tents. I can't remember if the company beer was free or not, but as it was quite weak (as most beer was then) it was really just a healthier alternative to foul water filled with sheep muck etc....

It's where the phrase "small beer" comes from, often only a couple of percent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top