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Nationalisation - what does it actually mean?

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Hi all, saw an article stating that Southern are due to be taken over by the state in approximately May this year.

What does nationalisation actually mean for staff? Difficulties in pay negotiations? Ability to change train timetables?

Hi all, saw an article stating that Southern are due to be taken over by the state in approximately May this year.

What does nationalisation actually mean for staff? Difficulties in pay negotiations? Ability to change train timetables?


Apologies, not only did I get the wrong TOC, I also forgot the article link

South Western Railway will be the first train operator nationalised under the Labour government, ministers are expected to announce this week.

SWR will be the first to be brought under the control of the Department for Transport’s operator of last resort, DOHL, when its contract ends in May, as first reported by the Financial Times.
 
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JD1504

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Hi all, saw an article stating that Southern are due to be taken over by the state in approximately May this year.

What does nationalisation actually mean for staff? Difficulties in pay negotiations? Ability to change train timetables?




Apologies, not only did I get the wrong TOC, I also forgot the article link

For staff, in theory nothing at least not right away. The employment terms and conditions will be initially protected TUPE regulations, which I believe can’t be touched for a minimum of 12 months’ following the transfer of ‘ownership’ and even then there are strict protocols to follow before changing any terms and conditions.
I also can’t imagine the governement wanting to rock the boat too much before all TOCs transfer to nationalised control. After the 12 months’ period for the last TOCs transfer is over, then they may look at making adjustments - however I can’t see the unions giving an easy ride and anything bar bringing everyone, regardless of TOCs, onto the same level for their particular role, is likely to meet some pretty hostile ground.

Pay negotiations would likely become a whole lot simpler as the unions would negotiate as a whole entity rather than on separate terms i.e xx% for everyone in that role regardless of where they work.

Timetables changes would likely be as currently and on an operational requirement basis. Increasing and decreasing services would need to be weighed up between the level of service they wish to provide and the political impact it will have.

In reality, anything is possible and nobody really knows anything for sure apart from what legislation permits.
 

AM9

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Yes, but they’ve announced they’re starting with SWR in May so I assume they won’t.
The opportunities to use contractual break points with other TOCs has been mention on this mornng's news broadcasts.
 

JonathanH

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Pay negotiations would likely become a whole lot simpler as the unions would negotiate as a whole entity rather than on separate terms i.e xx% for everyone in that role regardless of where they work.
Are the current differentials in pay between staff formerly at different operators likely to be set in stone then?
 

I'm here now

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The opportunities to use contractual break points with other TOCs has been mention on this mornng's news broadcasts.
Couldn’t Chiltern and TSGN get broken at the Apr 2025 core expiry dates as Greater Anglia will be.
 

Snow1964

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I originally posted this in the contract expiry dates thread, but would be better here

The Press release includes

The transition to a publicly owned railway will improve reliability and support the government’s number one priority of boosting economic growth by encouraging more people to use the railway.

It will also clamp down on unacceptable levels of delays, cancellations and waste seen under decades of failing franchise contracts

So better reliability, lower delays and cancellations, and all because owner is different. Really can that just happen magically if same staff on the ground are employed


Note it says the transition will, not long term when GBR can start moving stock between operators
 

Leon Tallis

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Couldn’t Chiltern and TSGN get broken at the Apr 2025 core expiry dates as Greater Anglia will be.

Looks like a less radical approach under the new transport secretary, based on the latest announcement. The short-term future of the industry may have been changed by one woman scamming an iPhone upgrade.
 

Dr Day

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So better reliability, lower delays and cancellations, and all because owner is different. Really can that just happen magically if same staff on the ground are employed
And the industry gets the same amount of funding, and is required to deliver more or less the same timetable over the same network as today with those staff still on the same terms and conditions? The perception still seems to persist that 'fat cats' are creaming off vast profits which could otherwise be re-invested.

Recent industrial action related and weather related issues aside, my observation of underlying performance is that it isn't too bad.
 

yorksrob

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For passengers, it's a big unknown.

A lot will, as now, depend on the Government of the day.

Personally, I would hope to see fares improvements.

With a nationalised system, it will be easier to institute things like national rail/climate card schemes.

Unfortunately it will also make it easier to expand LNER's attack against affordable travel.

Nationalisation is a power that can be used for good or evil.
 

zero

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I wonder what it will mean for prosecutions and those out-of-court settlements.

Will we see the end of TOC-specific tickets or will there still be different TOCs?
 

devon_belle

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Are the current differentials in pay between staff formerly at different operators likely to be set in stone then?
Presumably, as differences in responsibility (DOO, Sundays, etc) will be maintained until new contracts are agreed on a depot-by-depot basis?
 

AM9

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For passengers, it's a big unknown.

A lot will, as now, depend on the Government of the day.

Personally, I would hope to see fares improvements.

With a nationalised system, it will be easier to institute things like national rail/climate card schemes.

Unfortunately it will also make it easier to expand LNER's attack against affordable travel.

Nationalisation is a power that can be used for good or evil.
The biggest railcard localisation (Network Railcard) was launched in 1986 when the railway was one big entity with no financially independent TOCs.
 

yorksrob

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The biggest railcard localisation (Network Railcard) was launched in 1986 when the railway was one big entity with no financially independent TOCs.

Given that there wasn't any such product previously, I'd say that this was a plus point of the nationalised railway.

It's hard to imagine the TOC's that have existed in the old NSE area ever agreeing to it, had it not already existed.
 

JonathanH

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It's hard to imagine the TOC's that have existed in the old NSE area ever agreeing to it, had it not already existed.
It is easier to imagine the future nationalised railway deciding to remove it as well, as a single entity. Some of the TOCs did cite it as being an obstruction to them introducing their own special offers.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Well I can say with some certainty it will not be like BR in the early 90s. A new nationalised GBR will in my humble opinion not really take shape until the end of the decade. So assuming a 5 year parliament - General election Summer 2029 - sounds about right.
 

WAO

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The Civil Service and their (puppet) politicians are just as capable of messing up re-nationalisation as they were of botching privatisation - even though John Major preferred vertical integration. However the SoS, Ms Alexander has form as Deputy London Mayor (transport) so she may have some positive influence. The TOC's, let's remember, were often the sub-sectors of of NSE and IC, and that sectorisation was seen as a success. I imagine that the present structure will continue with the TOC's becoming decentralised profit centres, subject to central engineering, operating and marketing policy. Railway finance is continuing to improve after the horrors of COVID although the shape of commuting may take much longer to recover.

More in-house engineering capability would I believe lead to more cost effective investment, with standardisation and reduced design risk.

We can hope.

WAO
 

Ghostbus

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40% of the railway is already in public hands, including the entirety of Wales and Scotland. Freight, rolling stock and open access operators will still be in private hands even at the end of this years long process they're calling nationalisation, which has already seen the railway endure years of rudderless management.

Even now, nobody in government seems to want to answer even the most basic of questions regarding how the railway will be run once it had been nationalised. Up to and including whether the unionized workforce will have the ability to negotiate with one voice across the table from one management team.

Whatever this is, it certainly feels on brand for Kier Starmer. He's neither an ideologue or a pragmatist, a free marketeeer or a socialist. He sounds like a technocrat, but on straight performance, you'd probably not hire him.

Like many before him, ultimately his contribution to railway policy might be entirely forgotten, because in hindsight, nobody can be really sure what he actually did, never mind if it was of any lasting benefit.

Neither management contracts or operators of last resort were his ideas. Neither was vertical integration or devolution. He certainly didn't invent negotiating with the unions. The experts can pick holes in his messaging quite easily, and have largely decided not to inspite of him, not because of him. The public probably aren't even listening, blissful in their ignorance.

In all likelihood, the major changes and significant benefits will only occur under the next leader. And while you hope that won't be as a reaction to another lost half decade at the altar of indecision, you certainly can't rule it out on this evidence.

On the flip side, if Starmer deserves any credit, he won't get it. Not least because this is the one policy he decided not to dump when he ousted the Corbynites. His previous transport secretary included. She paid dearly for her two major mistakes in office, mistakes borne of her zeal for all things socialist.
 

I'm here now

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40% of the railway is already in public hands, including the entirety of Wales and Scotland. Freight, rolling stock and open access operators will still be in private hands even at the end of this years long process they're calling nationalisation, which has already seen the railway endure years of rudderless management.
Don’t forget DRS!
 

A S Leib

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Will we see the end of TOC-specific tickets or will there still be different TOCs?
My guess would be that for cases like Manchester to Sheffield the TPE-only fares would be abolished except for advance tickets, as there's little time difference with the EMR services, but that intercity / regional fares (so e.g. any permitted vs LNR only for Crewe / Birmingham to London) would stay.
 

Backroom_boy

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40% of the railway is already in public hands, including the entirety of Wales and Scotland. Freight, rolling stock and open access operators will still be in private hands even at the end of this years long process they're calling nationalisation, which has already seen the railway endure years of rudderless management.

Even now, nobody in government seems to want to answer even the most basic of questions regarding how the railway will be run once it had been nationalised. Up to and including whether the unionized workforce will have the ability to negotiate with one voice across the table from one management team.

Whatever this is, it certainly feels on brand for Kier Starmer. He's neither an ideologue or a pragmatist, a free marketeeer or a socialist. He sounds like a technocrat, but on straight performance, you'd probably not hire him.

Like many before him, ultimately his contribution to railway policy might be entirely forgotten, because in hindsight, nobody can be really sure what he actually did, never mind if it was of any lasting benefit.

Neither management contracts or operators of last resort were his ideas. Neither was vertical integration or devolution. He certainly didn't invent negotiating with the unions. The experts can pick holes in his messaging quite easily, and have largely decided not to inspite of him, not because of him. The public probably aren't even listening, blissful in their ignorance.

In all likelihood, the major changes and significant benefits will only occur under the next leader. And while you hope that won't be as a reaction to another lost half decade at the altar of indecision, you certainly can't rule it out on this evidence.

On the flip side, if Starmer deserves any credit, he won't get it. Not least because this is the one policy he decided not to dump when he ousted the Corbynites. His previous transport secretary included. She paid dearly for her two major mistakes in office, mistakes borne of her zeal for all things socialist.
What two mistakes in office?
 

Oldgaloot

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The government is to take over SWR on May 25th. It is said that because civil servants messed up, the taxpayer will be on the hook for an additional £50m a year due under contracts to lease the rolling stock for another five years. So far, so good, then.

Anyone know what the change in ownership likely to mean for the punters? As I write I can hear the debate in the Commons about the potential nationalisation of British Steel, currently owned by Chinese company, Jingwe which has reminded me that SWR was jointly owned by First Group (70%) and MTR (30%) which I understand to be a state owned Hong Kong company.

I was never in favour of ideologically driven privatisations and it just seemed to get worse when the family silver thus sold off has ended up in the hands of foreign entities often in state control themselves. So much for privatisation, then. Tell Sid, someone.
 

yorksrob

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Government could demonstrate that it intends for the new industry structure to be good for passengers by binning LNER/DfT/The Treasury's perfidious fares experiment.

Does it have the balls, I wonder !

(If not, I expect it will just be more rinsing of passengers).
 

Snow1964

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Will SWR be rebranded?
They took quite a few weeks to put SWR stickers over SWT names on the trains. Some of the curved orange line branded station signs still exist in obscure places, so could argue rebrand still ongoing.

SWR took over in August 2017, and nearly 8 years later there are still about 300 carriages still painted in SWT colours that are still in service (most should have been withdrawn years ago, but they retained them for now and kept old paint job)

So if current operator (SWR) never finished the rebrand in 8 years, who knows how long its successor will take.
 
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