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National Rail Timetable

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Bookd

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It is a long time since I acquired the NRT, either on line or the Middleton Press version, but I have various old timetables which are useful for reference.
I have just read, in the new Rail magazine, Barry Doe's review of the new NRT which seems to be a shambles. Various services not shown at all, some tables incomplete, the index not updated and generally a lack of proofreading.
It appears that NR would rather do away with it altogether but in the meantime this is a historical document of record and they should make an effort to get it right.
 
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ainsworth74

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The NRT has been a shambolic mess for a while now. Personally I think that Network Rail aren't really interested in producing it any more (and I don't blame them I've never used it and can't see myself ever needing to) and only do so because they're required to do so.
 

306024

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Well the complete lack of response to this thread probably shows how important the NRT is these days, although it does give Barry Doe something to write about.

Back in the day we used to pride ourselves on the accuracy of the tables we were responsible for, you didn't see many supplement items for the East Anglia tables, sometimes none at all. Sadly that pride seems to have evaporated.
 

Dr Hoo

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Yes, the lack of discussion speaks volumes.

Given that I have a continuous run of printed timetables dating back to the mid 1960s I still buy a printed Middleton Press version for archive purposes but it had already struck me that I have not so far needed to open the previous or current edition. At over £20, twice per year, it is becoming an expensive luxury.

Thanks to the depths of inaccuracy and omisison to which it has (sadly) sunk I doubt that many folks will be convinced about the veracity of any points or references based on recent editions anyway. :cry:
 

43106

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I have to agree that the NRT is a mess, and I'm convinced it's deliberate.
The NRT IS proof-read - several contributors to this forum carry out this function (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65099 which I started). I, myself, volunteered my services to proof-read Table 26 (Kings Cross to Leeds, Hull, Newcastle, Edinburgh & beyond) and I found quite a number of inaccuracies (e.g. they STILL describe the TOC at the top of each train time as GR. meaning GNER, despite there being 3 changes in TOC since then!) I submitted these inaccuracies to NR, but EVERY error (and corresponding correction) was ignored - the lot. I queried NR about this, but they never responded - at all. Because of that, I withdrew my services. From that, you can make your own decision on the quality of the NRT.
 

Peter Mugridge

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NR has apparently requested more than once that it be relieved of producing the NRT.

I am also of the opinion that the mass of errors is deliberate - with the intention of making it so unreliable that they finally get their request granted ( even though it should in theory take an Act of Parliament to achieve the danger is that an amendment in any other transport act relating to railways could do the job ).

Are the online working timetables as riddled with errors, I wonder?
 

181

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I use it despite its faults, and I would feel lost without it or a similar substitute (preferably in print although I might learn to live with an online-only version if I had to). A journey planner (very useful though it is for some purposes) is no substitute for a proper timetable -- it's a bit like looking at an atlas with one eye through a toilet roll tube pressed to the page, to use a possibly misremembered analogy from the Man in Seat 61 when Thomas Cook decided to abandon the European timetable, or like driving by blindly following a satnav -- and having all the timetables together in one place is much more convenient than a collection of regional, TOC-specific or route-specific ones.

This makes its errors all the more concerning, but having said that, although I was annoyed by a recent edition or editions in which I couldn't find the Cambridge-Birmingham or Coventry-Nuneaton routes because the table numbers had changed and the index hadn't (they're now tables 47 and 63 respectively if anyone still hasn't found them), I don't recall ever being caught out by an error -- it is (supplemented by online sources to check for weekend engineering works) still an adequate way of planning most journeys. As a proportion of the total number of train services I'm not sure that there are as many errors as you might think from some of the posts above, and obvious ones like incomplete tables can (by definition) be spotted and the information found elsewhere.
 

ainsworth74

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Are the online working timetables as riddled with errors, I wonder?

You mean the online journey planners (such as that found at National Rail Enquires or a TOC website)? Can't say I've ever noticed any inaccuracies in the information. The only time there seems to be issues is if engineering work cause something to be re-timed after tickets have gone on sale. But that is something that would affect the NRT!

I believe the eNRT is updated with corrections as they come up with them.

A journey planner (very useful though it is for some purposes) is no substitute for a proper timetable

Whereas I find the NRT to be so utterly cumbersome as to be totally useless for my purposes! Much prefer using a journey planner and then playing with that along with RealTimeTrains to do my planning than leafing through (either electronically or in actual paper) the NRT.
 

Ianno87

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I used to swear by the NRT, but now find it much easier if I want a whole route timetable just to find a printed or PDF timetable produced by a TOC.

Combine that with NRE, RealTimeTrains (and its app to aid on-the-go journey planning) and OpenTrainTimes and I find I've got all the information I need in something much less unwieldy than the NRT book.

In my view, the NRT is an anachronism that is only produced-because-that's-the-traditional-way-we've-always-done-it-and-because it-says-we-have-to and for no other real reason.
 

Philip C

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I used to swear by the NRT, but now find it much easier if I want a whole route timetable just to find a printed or PDF timetable produced by a TOC.

Combine that with NRE, RealTimeTrains (and its app to aid on-the-go journey planning) and OpenTrainTimes and I find I've got all the information I need in something much less unwieldy than the NRT book.

In my view, the NRT is an anachronism that is only produced-because-that's-the-traditional-way-we've-always-done-it-and-because it-says-we-have-to and for no other real reason.

I'm really not sure what the problem is with the NRT. In principle it is a logical distillation of the WTT and, were that to exist only in some other format, could be derived from that format. Somewhere along the way the automation of the interface from WTT to NRT has been neglected and the resulting (part-)manual process become unwieldy. In other words an electronic version of the NRT ought to be a simple (free) spin-off from information required to manage the railway - I suppose we could envisage a railway where pathing was arranged on a real-time demand based basis and not by a WTT planning process but not in my lifetime!

The advantages of the traditional format are obvious to me. Among these are the ability to plan my own connection allowances, interpret what is going on with the service in general and change plans on the move. All of this can be done without the frustrations of flat mobile phone batteries etc.

Were the NRT to cease to be available in a single book version then I'd be left printing PDFs, which wouldn't be anywhere near as good. Then, if the PDFs ceased to be available, I'd struggle to make effective use of the service on offer.


Whether or not NR were to divest itself of the role the following might be worth consideration:

1. Regional timetables: basically to make the document less bulky (at the expense of some duplication). Even pulling Scotland and the old Southern Region out of the National Book into separate volumes would help. It might be practicable to go further (possibly some PTE areas?) but I'm not absolutely convinced. The comprehensiveness of the set would be important.

2. TOCs to have standards set for their timetables to improve usefulness. Great Western (I'm told) and SWT (certainly) produce single volumes for their services. The SWT document is excellent and, were each TOC to publish to their standard would go a very long way to meeting my needs. I actually live on the Southern/SouthEastern TOC border and this illustrates current problems. SET publish a series of eight booklets which together provide comprehensive and comprehensible information. Were they to be bound together they would go close to the SWT standard and meet needs. Southern, on the other hand, are a mess, with thirty-three timetable documents which are almost useless for real-time use. For example, if were travelling from Hastings to Barnham and discovered there to be a problem at, say Falmer, I'm left with questions such as should I travel via Wivelsfield, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick or keep going via Falmer. I defy anyone whose train is now approaching Lewes to discover the best option from those thirty-three leaflets and in time!

3. TOC timetables should also be comprehensive for sections of line. This used to be a problem with Northern, in the Manchester area (and possibly elsewhere). Things may have changed but understanding the complete six TOC operation between Piccadilly and Stockport used to be a major challenge (without the NRT). West Yorkshire PTE produces a pocket-size book which appears to be decently comprehensive for its area, though the presentation standard isn't up to SWT levels.

4. Where timings vary, but by very little, between one day and another, set standards should be applied to present a single timing which neither risks departure times being missed nor arrival times being anticipated. This would de-clutter many of the current timetables and cut down on volume size. Naturally I would expect that this could, in time, be automated and the criteria applied be openly explained.

Anyone travelling abroad, in a country where comprehensive paper timetables have been withdrawn, will appreciate the difficulties that can be caused. I really do hope that we avoid a similar fate. After all the times at which trains are scheduled to travel is not a state secret but rather is vital information for the traveller and, we are told, the customer is king!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It used to be a red letter day when the BR NRT appeared in WH Smiths, twice a year.
I used to read them from cover to cover. Paperbacks of the year!
(Life was more complicated when BR issued 6 regional timetables, and you could only get them within each region!)
No longer, since the eNRT became available.
I thought I would miss the physical book, but I don't.
I would miss an integrated PDF version to download and keep though.
I think the future for the European Rail Timetable is online PDFs too.
 

Taunton

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After all the times at which trains are scheduled to travel is not a state secret but rather is vital information for the traveller and, we are told, the customer is king!
Unfortunately Network Rail never see the travelling public as their "customers", the TOCs come between.

I have found the large PDF equivalent of the national timetable to be the most efficient, from London it can be any of a number of TOCs I use next and knowing my way round the traditional timetable, without being a gricer who knows every number off the top of their head, that works fine - or worked. because although it is indeed a licence condition placed on NR to produce a national timetable, this latest version they arbitrarily decided to stop doing it, and just produce 300 independent PDFs instead for each of the tables. What a pain, and indeed surely the sort of thing that imposing the licence condition was meant to prevent.

I emailed the "feedback" address on their timetable page and received the following dismissive response :

Good Morning

Thank you for your e-mail. We decided not to include a compiled set of Tables for the Dec 2015 edition of the eNRT but we will take your feedback into account when reviewing arrangements for future editions.

Regards
NRT Publications Team
So. They just "decided not to include" a proper national timetable this time. How customer-facing, indeed. Anyone know who imposed the licence condition on NR to produce one; was it ORR or DfT?
 
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MichaelAMW

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To add my view...

I find the NRTT of enormous value, particularly now I can keep it electronically as a set of pdf files. Every time it comes out I download it to all of my devices. As others have said, you can get an overall view of services along a route and, crucially, see how the services of more than one TOC are integrated (as it were) along a particular line, as many TOC timetables only show their own services. E.g., York - Newcastle is served regularly by VTEC, XC and TPE so the punter, who as people often say doesn't care about the paint job on the train, know the whole story.

I would be extremely sorry to see it go as online planners are no good for this kind of overview - good for finding AP tickets and even double-checking a particular journey but that's all. You can't get easily an idea of first and last trains or general frequency from a journey planner.
 

The Planner

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So. They just "decided not to include" a proper national timetable this time. How customer-facing, indeed. Anyone know who imposed the licence condition on NR to produce one; was it ORR or DfT?

Licence conditions are with the ORR.
 

Peter Mugridge

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You mean the online journey planners (such as that found at National Rail Enquires or a TOC website)?

No, I mean the actual WTT that is published these days.

( I do use the eNRT itself quite a lot, always via the individual numbered tables. )
 
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berneyarms

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Unfortunately Network Rail never see the travelling public as their "customers", the TOCs come between.

I have found the large PDF equivalent of the national timetable to be the most efficient, from London it can be any of a number of TOCs I use next and knowing my way round the traditional timetable, without being a gricer who knows every number off the top of their head, that works fine - or worked. because although it is indeed a licence condition placed on NR to produce a national timetable, this latest version they arbitrarily decided to stop doing it, and just produce 300 independent PDFs instead for each of the tables. What a pain, and indeed surely the sort of thing that imposing the licence condition was meant to prevent.

I emailed the "feedback" address on their timetable page and received the following dismissive response :


So. They just "decided not to include" a proper national timetable this time. How customer-facing, indeed. Anyone know who imposed the licence condition on NR to produce one; was it ORR or DfT?

While I can understand your desire to have a single pdf file, although personally I much prefer the individual files, I think that you're putting a very narrow definition on the term "national timetable".

While I think you should encourage them to publish it in that format if it is useful to you, I'm not sure that you will get very far by suggesting that the requirement below is one that necessarily requires them to publish it in a single pdf file.

They have published a national rail timetable, just not in the format you like. I don't think you'll get very far with that argument.

Here is the requirement from the licence:

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/3063/netwrk_licence.pdf

National timetable
2.6 The licence holder shall, except in so far as ORR may otherwise consent, publish, or procure the publication of, a national timetable of railway passenger services.

Personally I would be far more concerned that they seem incapable of producing an accurate timetable.

Your single pdf file has been rendered pretty much useless the last two or three issues due to the sheer number of errors and omissions.
 
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greatkingrat

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Was it ever accurate? Even back in BR days they used to issue numerous supplements correcting errors in the original timetables.
 

berneyarms

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Was it ever accurate? Even back in BR days they used to issue numerous supplements correcting errors in the original timetables.

This is true, but the amount of errors (if the analysis by Barry Doe in Rail for the last few editions is correct) of late has grown to epic proportions.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Oh duh of course you do. Sorry I really should have got that myself :oops:

So... well.... I take it, being the WTT, that the details in these are far more accurate and that any errors discovered are corrected much quicker than those in the eNRT?
 

Busaholic

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I thought Network Rail stopped producing a printed, all-lines timetable, then after a gap of a year or so Middleton Press stepped in and, in the public interest, produced a version as a commercial venture. Am I misremembering? If my memory is correct, then since when has there been an obligation on NR to keep the printed version going?
 

Dr Hoo

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I think that the licence obligation (going back to Railtrack's original licence from the Secretary of State for Transport, just before the ORR formally gained its powers under the Railways Act 1993) was to 'publish' a national timetable.

Given the advances in IT formats, etc. since 1993 it was accepted that pdf files satisfied the obligation, rather than having to produce a printed version.

The files were made available to 'Her Majesty's Stationery Office'/'The Stationery Office' (TSO) and Middleton Press. Both produced commercial printed versions, against falling demand, and the TSO stopped doing it after a while.
 
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I have to agree that the NRT is a mess, and I'm convinced it's deliberate.
The NRT IS proof-read - several contributors to this forum carry out this function (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65099 which I started). I, myself, volunteered my services to proof-read Table 26 (Kings Cross to Leeds, Hull, Newcastle, Edinburgh & beyond) and I found quite a number of inaccuracies (e.g. they STILL describe the TOC at the top of each train time as GR. meaning GNER, despite there being 3 changes in TOC since then!) I submitted these inaccuracies to NR, but EVERY error (and corresponding correction) was ignored - the lot. I queried NR about this, but they never responded - at all. Because of that, I withdrew my services. From that, you can make your own decision on the quality of the NRT.

GR is the code for the East Coast franchise.
 

181

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I'm really not sure what the problem is with the NRT. In principle it is a logical distillation of the WTT and, were that to exist only in some other format, could be derived from that format. Somewhere along the way the automation of the interface from WTT to NRT has been neglected and the resulting (part-)manual process become unwieldy. In other words an electronic version of the NRT ought to be a simple (free) spin-off from information required to manage the railway - I suppose we could envisage a railway where pathing was arranged on a real-time demand based basis and not by a WTT planning process but not in my lifetime!

Is the WTT available to the public in a form that someone else (either a publishing company or an enthusiastic individual) could use to produce a pdf timetable? I'm thinking of brfares.com, where official data has been used to produce an unofficial service that for many purposes is much superior to the official alternatives*, and RealTime Trains which in effect produces a 'proper' timetable for each individual train, although I suspect (not that I know much about it) that producing a useable complete timetable would be a harder task.

*Also, I don't pine for the days of printed fares manuals, although I have an old one on my bookshelf as a historic document.


Anyone travelling abroad, in a country where comprehensive paper timetables have been withdrawn, will appreciate the difficulties that can be caused. I really do hope that we avoid a similar fate.[/B]

I hope so too; when abroad I usually find that the former Thomas Cook timetable, combined if I need more details with some pre-trip online research and with information available locally, is usually sufficient, but when it looked like disappearing I was seriously worried about how I was going to plan continental trips in future.

I have on occasion used http://www.fahrplancenter.com/, which is a very useful source of printed timetables (albeit at a higher price than if you buy them in the country concerned) where they still exist, and now provides links to pdf versions where they don't.
 

swt_passenger

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GR is the code for the East Coast franchise.

I think people are generally aware of that, but are wondering why it hasn't been altered, as there's a number of other codes that have been changed; so there's no fundamental reason why it couldn't have been updated at any one of the previous occasions.
 

gswindale

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I think people are generally aware of that, but are wondering why it hasn't been altered, as there's a number of other codes that have been changed; so there's no fundamental reason why it couldn't have been updated at any one of the previous occasions.
Quick question regarding this - have any of the franchises which have changed both operator and NRT code remained exactly the same as they were previously?

Have any where the code has not changed seen significant differences to the franchised routes?

I'm guessing the East Coast franchise hasn't changed much since GNER days whereas the old Central Trains franchise is now a combination of LM/XC/ATW routes.
 

Paul Kelly

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The VT code used to cover both the West Coast and CrossCountry franchises when they were both run by Virgin, I think. So the codes don't necessarily correspond to franchises (although maybe they do now). Greater Anglia is still LE and there have been quite a few changes there.
 
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