• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

National Rail services which run on non-Network Rail tracks

Status
Not open for further replies.

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
2,041
Location
Liverpool
Do Stena Line own the track at Fishguard Harbour, or is that just the building and platform?
It is owned by the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company.

Originally jointly owned GS&WR/GWR then CIE / British Railways, and now CIE / Iarnrod Eireann and Stena?

Though the Wikipedia entry states just Stena however I found this link to the London Stock Exchange which suggests the jointly owned company is still in existence. https://www.londonstockexchange.com...sslare-railways-harbours-company/company-page
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

themiller

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
1,383
Location
Cumbria, UK
If you include freight services, you can count most freight terminals and ports. Also such locations as nuclear flask loading facilities.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
Out of interest, what kind of signalling system is on use on Swanage Railway, and did the SWR trains require additional equipment on top of the main line signalling to run on Swanage Railway? Or instead did the SWR trains ran in restricted manual mode on the heritage line?
What do you mean by “restricted manual” here? I believe that’s usually a term used on LU systems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Warwick Parkway is owned by M40 trains the intermediate parent company of Chiltern...
That doesn’t affect the track ownership through Warwick Parkway station though.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
3,544
Location
West London
Is the Waterloo & City line still signalled by Network Rail? Might seem a daft question but I noticed that the signal on the Waterloo platform had a Network Rail-style signal plate when I was there last week.
Staffed by LU operating the panel installed 1992/93.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
So in this case, East London Line and District Line tracks at Wimbledon are owned by LU but operated by Network Rail, right? Is it the case for Heathrow Spur and Crossrail also?
Heathrow Spur is run by NR signallers located at the GW signalling centre at Didcot - Thames Valley Signalling Centre (TVSC). Not sure about Crossrail, I think they have their own TfL employed signallers in their route control centre (RCC) for the Crossrail central operating section, ie the non-NR infrastructure. But that control centre is located in its own rooms within the NR ROC at Romford.
 

miklcct

Established Member
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
5,017
Location
Cricklewood
What do you mean by “restricted manual” here? I believe that’s usually a term used on LU systems.
It's a term used on the underground:

Auto: computer drives the train, driver only press the button to start and control the door
Coded manual: driver drives the train under full protection from the signalling system
Restricted manual: driver drives the train where full protection is not available - the speed is limited.

There was a discussion about this as well https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-likely-is-an-ato-failure-and-what-is-the-procedure.213553/

Sorry I don't know what's the corresponding term in the mainline network.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
It's a term used on the underground:

Auto: computer drives the train, driver only press the button to start and control the door
Coded manual: driver drives the train under full protection from the signalling system
Restricted manual: driver drives the train where full protection is not available - the speed is limited.

There was a discussion about this as well https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-likely-is-an-ato-failure-and-what-is-the-procedure.213553/

Sorry I don't know what's the corresponding term in the mainline network.
Yes I thought so. None of SWR’s current fleet has any of that stuff, it’s all manually driven by following the signals. So nothing much changes if they head off the main line to Swanage, just a change from colour lights to semaphore.

There‘s AWS/TPWS protection on mainlines, but that isn’t actually driving the train in the way ATO does.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,817
Location
UK
It's a term used on the underground:

Auto: computer drives the train, driver only press the button to start and control the door
Coded manual: driver drives the train under full protection from the signalling system
Restricted manual: driver drives the train where full protection is not available - the speed is limited.

There was a discussion about this as well https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-likely-is-an-ato-failure-and-what-is-the-procedure.213553/

Sorry I don't know what's the corresponding term in the mainline network.
That would just be normal or manual driving. With the exception of the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink cores (the latter only if the driver has received the required training), all other mainline trains are driven manually.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,662
Location
South Wales
Since March 2020, Welsh Government have owned the Core Valley lines north of Cardiff Queen Street to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as well as the City line between Ninian Park and Radyr, and Cardiff Queen Street to Coryton.

Transport for Wales manages the lines on behalf of Welsh Govt, and TfW employ Amey-Keolis to maintain and upgrade the infrastructure.

So TfW are running their own services on their own infrastructure. I wonder if this vertically integrated model of ownership will catch on? :lol:
 
Last edited:

Andrew1395

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2014
Messages
666
Location
Bushey
South Western Railway run occasional services over the Wimbledon-East Putney part of the District Line. Confusingly, this section of line is signalled and powered by Network Rail infrastructure, but it remains under LU ownership.
That railway along with the Waterloo and City transferred from BRB to LUL at privatisation of BR in 1995.
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,996
Auto: computer drives the train, driver only press the button to start and control the door
Coded manual: driver drives the train under full protection from the signalling system
Restricted manual: driver drives the train where full protection is not available - the speed is limited.
That makes sense in the context of a self-contained metro line with full in-cab signalling and continuous supervision of train speeds, e.g. the DLR or some (but not all) underground lines.

The mainline railway (and parts of the underground) isn't like that though, British rail trialled a couple of different "automatic train protection" systems but ultimately they were deemed too expensive for widespread deployment. ETCS has more recently been installed in some locations but remains very much the exception not the rule.

Most of the mainline railway still relies on line-side (or overhead) signals as the primary method of controlling trains. Laid on top of this are additional protection mechanisms. AWS warns a driver when they are about to pass a signal that is not green (and some other situations that require a similar degree of attention) and will stop the train if they do not acknowlage the warning within an allotted time. TPWS acts to automatically stop trains that pass a signal at danger or approach a signal at danger at too high a speed. Both AWS and TPWS are spot protection systems not continuous supervision. So not every signal is nessacerally fitted with AWS and/or TPWS and a train can move from a line that is fitted with the systems to one that is not fitted or vice-versa without any need to change mode.

As I understand it, the not so modern parts of the London Underground rely on lineside signals in combination with "tripcocks", these are a primitive system for stopping trains that run past a red signal by physically opening a valve on the brake pipe. This system was also used by the mainline railway on the northern city line to moorgate, ETCS has recently been deployed on that line, but it's not clear to me if the tripcocks have been removed or if the old and new currently operate in parallel.
 
Last edited:

Future

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2021
Messages
235
Location
Devon
Maybe worth a separate thread, but I wonder if the opposite situation occurs where non-TOC services run over NR metals. Obviously this would exclude charters and specials: I am thinking of regular timetabled services.

The only ones that come to mind are Sheffield Supertram between Tinsley and Parkgate and the North York Moors railway between Grosmont and Whitby. Or are these TOCs?

TOC - Train operating company
NR - Network Rail
NYM railway has an operator code (NY) and uses conventional headcodes. Supertram doesn’t have an operator codes and doesn’t use NR headcodes iirc
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,996
Realtimetrains seems to show headcodes and an operator code of SJ for Sheffield tram-train services.
 

CunningPlan

Member
Joined
6 May 2020
Messages
18
Location
Greater Manchester
Since March 2020, Welsh Government have owned the Core Valley lines north of Cardiff Queen Street to Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as well as the City line between Ninian Park and Radyr, and Cardiff Queen Street to Coryton.

Transport for Wales manages the lines on behalf of Welsh Govt, and TfW employ Amey-Keolis to maintain and upgrade the infrastructure.

So TfW are running their own services on their own infrastructure. I wonder if this vertically integrated model of ownership will catch on? :lol:
Not quite the same, but the operator of Island Line has been responsible for day-to-day track maintenance ever since privatisation... Technically it's a Network Rail route, but NR are totally hands-off unless there is major infrastructure work (such as on Ryde pier).
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,992
Location
K
Pedant alert - They never have been
Technically that's not entirely true. The Spa Valley operate over Birchden Junction to Eridge a line wholly owned by Network Rail but not connected to the national network. I think the whole Wensleydale railway is leased from Network Rail.
 

SargeNpton

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2018
Messages
1,750
NYM railway has an operator code (NY) and uses conventional headcodes. Supertram doesn’t have an operator codes and doesn’t use NR headcodes iirc
Supertram has to have a Train Id for that section of the route over Network Rail tracks. For instance, the 1531 from Rotherham Parkgate to Sheffield is 2A59.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,842
Location
SW London
That would just be normal or manual driving. With the exception of the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink cores (the latter only if the driver has received the required training), all other mainline trains are driven manually.
Hasn't the Northern City Line recently moved over to a form of automated signalling?
 

Recessio

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
1,545
Location
London
The transfer took effect from 1 April 1994.

Thanks, so when Railtrack was created as a distinct legal entity from BRB. Makes sense as obviously BRB transferred the assets to the new company.

Can't find a source, but could've sworn I read somewhere that the W&C transfer was that the line was sold from BRB to LUL in return for £1, the minimum value of a legal contract under English law, which makes the W&C TfL's cheapest train line by quite some way!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,314
It’s on both, is it not? With AWS/TPWS overlayed until the training is completed.
There have been a number news articles saying it’s recently commissioned, however I agree that doesn’t mean it’s in use.

But the main point of my earlier reply was not intended to say it’s in use, but that its presence doesn’t automatically introduce ATO as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top