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National Rail App

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Joe Paxton

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The old version National Rail app was by no means perfect (and I'm sure I can recall people on here decrying it as an anachronistic dinosaur of an app as it hadn't been updated), but like many others I liked the functionality - the easy recall of previously planned journeys, or previously consulted station LDBs.

And like a significant number of others I'm sure, I'd happily pay say a fiver for an app that broadly recreated the UI of the old NRE app.
(Railboard seems great, but I've got the wrong type of device, a cyborg rather than a Malus domestica.)
 
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Stephen42

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I guess because no-one really owns it as such? It's within the purview of the Rail Delivery Group but that means it's very arms length from the TOCs that actually deliver the railway services which National Rail is intended to be informing people about. It also means that there's almost certainly not much money available to spend on the website itself and developing an app for the service.

And why should there be? The TOCs do their own apps (with varying degrees of success) and their own websites as well. It's not in their interest to provide money to RDG to upgrade National Rail, they've got their own patch covered by their own apps and websites. Why on earth would they contribute to a third party app/website when the benefit to their own services is negligible? After all if your a customer of TOC X why would you not just use TOC Xs website/app (from their point of view)?

I would hope that this is something that GBR might get to grips with either via the National Rail branding itself or in a new GBR form. It seems beyond obvious that there's a need for a proper do it all app/website, which is given sufficient resources to actually deliver a good service, for the railway network. But on the structure we've had since the 1990s it seems quite obvious how we've ended up with the rubbish we've gotten via National Rail.
Looking at the accounts of "Train Information Services Limited" they have spent £5m on software development over the last two years, presumably mostly for the website rebuild. It's a decent chunk of money, though again far less than Trainline which is upwards of £30m per year and Trainline would use permanent staff with lower cost as a result.

The financial motivation for a better central railway website is clear, taking even a percent of Trainline transactions back onto TOC websites via National Rail is a significant sum (back of envelope maybe £1m per year). That's why one of the focuses is the shift to promoting tickets over plain journey planning queries as that's a key success target.

With only info in the public domain, I'd be inclined to agree that the structure being a likely part of the problem. Even though they had the cash to do something it's not a situation the organisation would be used to. As well as having to procure a solution at higher rates than permanent staff, they needed to run a procurement with a product mindset they wouldn't have done recently. Formal procurement can be challenging as being good at winning procurement processes doesn't necessarily mean good at delivering the end product. If the supplier chosen isn't great it's hard to get rid and reselect compared to the 'full' private sector. They also wouldn't necessarily have enough people or people with product development experience to assist the supplier and challenge any assumptions. Stakeholders may have jumped out of the woodwork with feature requests and demands as see the only chance to get their pet project implemented as there's only one pot of cash.

I'd expect as part of GBR someone to step back and look at what intellectual property is now publicly owned then look to consolidate. Not all TOCs will be the same, however the London commuter TOCs or intercity TOCs could all use the same solution with different branding. There would then be the question of what the central National Rail website should be trying to do, making it sell tickets without a handoff would reduce friction. The consolidation would hopefully allow less money to be spent while providing a better overall experience, I wouldn't want to bet on it necessarily working out though.
 

infobleep

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Looking at the accounts of "Train Information Services Limited" they have spent £5m on software development over the last two years, presumably mostly for the website rebuild. It's a decent chunk of money, though again far less than Trainline which is upwards of £30m per year and Trainline would use permanent staff with lower cost as a result.

The financial motivation for a better central railway website is clear, taking even a percent of Trainline transactions back onto TOC websites via National Rail is a significant sum (back of envelope maybe £1m per year). That's why one of the focuses is the shift to promoting tickets over plain journey planning queries as that's a key success target.

With only info in the public domain, I'd be inclined to agree that the structure being a likely part of the problem. Even though they had the cash to do something it's not a situation the organisation would be used to. As well as having to procure a solution at higher rates than permanent staff, they needed to run a procurement with a product mindset they wouldn't have done recently. Formal procurement can be challenging as being good at winning procurement processes doesn't necessarily mean good at delivering the end product. If the supplier chosen isn't great it's hard to get rid and reselect compared to the 'full' private sector. They also wouldn't necessarily have enough people or people with product development experience to assist the supplier and challenge any assumptions. Stakeholders may have jumped out of the woodwork with feature requests and demands as see the only chance to get their pet project implemented as there's only one pot of cash.

I'd expect as part of GBR someone to step back and look at what intellectual property is now publicly owned then look to consolidate. Not all TOCs will be the same, however the London commuter TOCs or intercity TOCs could all use the same solution with different branding. There would then be the question of what the central National Rail website should be trying to do, making it sell tickets without a handoff would reduce friction. The consolidation would hopefully allow less money to be spent while providing a better overall experience, I wouldn't want to bet on it necessarily working out though.

Please be assured that user testing was conducted during the development of our new app, and the general consensus was that it was an improvement over how information was displayed on our old app.
They state the general concensus from user research was the new site was better laid out.
Is that true or are they lying, I wonder?
If it's true, how thoroughly did the users test it?
 

takno

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They state the general concensus from user research was the new site was better laid out.
Is that true or are they lying, I wonder?
If it's true, how thoroughly did the users test it?
User testing often involves a second-rate UX lead hiring a bunch of uninterested internet randoms. They are usually then asked to perform a series of tasks that the UX lead identified as important, often with no input from actual people with actual use-cases. Their ability to perform the arbitrary tasks is scored on the site which has been designed for those tasks against the original site which wasn't. The final swimwear round gives them an opportunity to swoon on video about how skillful the person paying them is, and what masterful colour choices he has made.

It's all very scientific
 

Stephen42

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They state the general concensus from user research was the new site was better laid out.
Is that true or are they lying, I wonder?
If it's true, how thoroughly did the users test it?
The design process can be difficult to get right. Often it's a balance between competing user or business needs. For say a live departure board user needs could be to easily identify train of interest and then select for further details about the service. Different users probably want different information; those following an itinerary are after a particular train, regular travellers the destination and via description is enough and less frequent travellers might want more information to pick the most suitable train. There then might be questions of balance between those users and whether they'd use National Rail live departure boards or something else (like journey planner or the retailer itinerary live info).

In this case I suspect it's not a lie and more issues with how it was tested. Often clickable prototypes are used with dummy data and instructions on what to search for. A station with 2 trains an hour will be very different to London Bridge with 7 in five minutes and unless they ran users through both scenarios it may give misleading results. Perhaps user testing focused more on desktops rather than mobile despite high level of mobile use which didn't pick up information density. (It's possible the project went over planned budget early on and the app/mobile website version ended up with less mobile specific stuff than intended). The user testing in this case clearly wasn't perfect, given the revision post release to make it fit more in a single screen.

There are several other questionable decisions, some the business may have forced on them like the 'Buy tickets' button on every result which just links to a journey planner with no service specific information filled in. Hopefully they pushed back and said it should just be at the top and/or bottom allowing the card to be a single click area without the bottom button row. Some of the things about the journey planner might have been business enforced decisions rather than the result of user centred design. Others are design related, if I'm searching for trains from London Bridge do I really need "Calling at London Bridge" on every train that starts before there when there isn't a from x to y so don't know which ones do or don't start there. Similarly if asking for trains from x to y I don't need "Calling at X and Y" if y isn't the final destination it's what I searched for.

Overall I'd say the basic building blocks are nicer than the old site, crucially though further alterations and tweaks would need to be made before I'd be happy to switch back to it. The rebuild is a clear example of switching to NextJS and have a site redesign does not necessarily give good results, you need to have the right processes and collaboration between disciplines to achieve those results.
 

ricoblade

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Mine has now updated and for my needs it seems to work fine (well?). Mainly Live Departures and some Journey Planning and it remembers my recently used stations.
 

DelW

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In this case I suspect it's not a lie and more issues with how it was tested. Often clickable prototypes are used with dummy data and instructions on what to search for. A station with 2 trains an hour will be very different to London Bridge with 7 in five minutes and unless they ran users through both scenarios it may give misleading results. Perhaps user testing focused more on desktops rather than mobile despite high level of mobile use which didn't pick up information density. (It's possible the project went over planned budget early on and the app/mobile website version ended up with less mobile specific stuff than intended). The user testing in this case clearly wasn't perfect, given the revision post release to make it fit more in a single screen.
Interesting reply and information. Your sentence that I've highlighted matches my suspicion - that the developers are using large ultra high resolution screens. With large areas of space available, no doubt the white surrounds to each item look classy, but the test should be to put it on a laptop screen, a tablet screen and a phone screen. If travellers (who are likely to be reading it on a phone) have to scroll around to see the whole picture, then the website or app has failed its primary purpose, regardless of how it looks.

When I'm planning itineraries and connections, I do it on Excel spreadsheet. It's amazing just how much timetable information you can get onto a small screen and still keep it readable. In contrast the recent NR efforts can barely manage to show one return journey without scrolling and/or moving between screens.
 

eoff

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I really wish I had looked at the reviews before I updated the iPhone app today. So now I get the website style that I hate so much on the mobile app and none of the functionality I relied on, albeit the NR app had annoyances. NR app now gone, now, using Railboard.
 

sikejsudjek

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Well they have updated the national rail app and it seems to run in a browser window like the website. A massive downgrade IMO. Less clear graphics and clunky. Looking at the reviews on google play it is getting one star and an absolute slating.
 
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185

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I've still got the update blocked. See how long it holds up. Plonkers at DfT should be held to account for allowing this to happen.

Perhaps it's time the DfT has it's own no-adverts app, and reduce funding to NRE's owner for failing to provide a fit-for-purpose app.
 
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Mainline421

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I've still got the update blocked. See how long it holds up. Plonkers at DfT should be held to account for allowing this to happen.

Perhaps it's time the DfT has it's own no-adverts app, and reduce funding to NRE's owner for failing to provide a fit-for-purpose app.
NRE is owned by the TOCs and will soon be absorbed by GBR, so that's effectively what's happening.
 

185

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NRE is owned by the TOCs and will soon be absorbed by GBR, so that's effectively what's happening.
I considered that, then I looked at the money moving around within TISL the owners of NRE. A large sum comes from advertising, and there are some quite unbelievable exec salaries. The sooner advertising revenue & ticket sales commission is no longer a part of NRE, the better - it might deter those vulture directors who have no interest in providing train information, only selling tickets like a retailer and advertising buckets of creosote for B&Q.
 

MountVrmac

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The old version National Rail app was by no means perfect (and I'm sure I can recall people on here decrying it as an anachronistic dinosaur of an app as it hadn't been updated), but like many others I liked the functionality - the easy recall of previously planned journeys, or previously consulted station LDBs.

And like a significant number of others I'm sure, I'd happily pay say a fiver for an app that broadly recreated the UI of the old NRE app.
(Railboard seems great, but I've got the wrong type of device, a cyborg rather than a Malus domestica.)
For now, there are a number of reputable APK websites which host the Android installer for the previous version (9.6.5.2) from March 2024, and I've rolled back to it. How long this version is supported - if this is part of a GBR founding which devalues NRE assets - remains to be seen.
 

BigDog

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Forgive me for my ignorance, is there a free app similar to Flight Radar that can track trains? Thanks
 

eh_oh

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Many have mentioned railboard but what good equivalent is there for android? (I am mainly looking for live departures and route planning)
 

CaptainHaddock

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No, Traksy is mine. Gaelan is a really nice fast live departures view tho

No, Traksy is mine. Gaelan is a really nice fast live departures view though
I used to find Gaelan useful but recently I've found any attempt to access it gives a "500 internal error" message. Not helpful when you only have seconds to catch your train.
 

DelW

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I used to find Gaelan useful but recently I've found any attempt to access it gives a "500 internal error" message. Not helpful when you only have seconds to catch your train.
Yes, I've found that too. Hopefully @Gaelan may be able to solve the problem, in the meantime I've gone back to using Tiger / Worldline, but it's a bit more cumbersome and doesn't cover all stations.
 

YayTrains

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Urgh. Got stung by this update on Android yesterday and I hate it. Uninstalled the app so I don't have to look at it ever again and replacing it with Traksy for now, despite it's less than great UI.

When I get the chance I might see if I can faff around finding an old apk to install but I really didn't need the hassle.

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Signalbox is pretty similar. https://map.signalbox.io
That's now owned by Trainline.
 

takno

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Urgh. Got stung by this update on Android yesterday and I hate it. Uninstalled the app so I don't have to look at it ever again and replacing it with Traksy for now, despite it's less than great UI.

When I get the chance I might see if I can faff around finding an old apk to install but I really didn't need the hassle.

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That's now owned by Trainline.
You could subscribe and try the new UI on Traksy, which changes things quite a lot. It's trying to solve a different problem though, so the UI is never going to be as simple and near as something likel Gaelan.
 

BigDog

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Yesterday I discovered the Railmap app, highly recommend. I ES & PICOP, it would be great if you could type in your signals/mileage and then highlight the possession/worksite. It would be much better to see a picture of your work area than the sectional appendix/line diagram if you could.
 

cuccir

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Yes, just got this "update" today. What a terrible change. Wish I'd been more alert that this was coming and would have disabled it!

I've uninstalled the app and have created a few shortcuts to departures from my commuting stations on RealTimeTrains in the short term. Will look at Android alternatives or see if I can reinstall an old version of NRE when I get a chance at home on the WiFi later....
 
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Number5

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When using the plan a journey section, and selecting 'Last train' for any given journey using today's date I am consistently getting "We couldn't find any services for the journey you have requested. Please check your selection criteria."

All subsequent dates working as normal.
 

Gaelan

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I used to find Gaelan useful but recently I've found any attempt to access it gives a "500 internal error" message. Not helpful when you only have seconds to catch your train.
Yes, I've found that too. Hopefully @Gaelan may be able to solve the problem, in the meantime I've gone back to using Tiger / Worldline, but it's a bit more cumbersome and doesn't cover all stations.
Sorry about that! Seems to have been an issue with someone else's service that I use as a data source - seems to have fixed itself, not exactly sure what happened.

I've a long-term goal to move to using the Darwin feed directly, but I've not been able to find the time to finish that work unfortunately.
 

S-Car-Go

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Mine updated yesterday. It worked albeit it's exactly the same as the mobile NRE website. I agree it's clunky and more stages to select or omit before getting the info you want.

Today, it refuses to work at all. Just getting flickering screen that would induce epileptic fits.
 

DelW

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Sorry about that! Seems to have been an issue with someone else's service that I use as a data source - seems to have fixed itself, not exactly sure what happened.

I've a long-term goal to move to using the Darwin feed directly, but I've not been able to find the time to finish that work unfortunately.
Excellent, thank you!
 

flitwickbeds

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For anyone who has previously paid the £4.99 for the ad free version of the previous app (as I did TWELVE years ago!), you can "restore" the new app to ad-free (though why they don't do this automatically is suspicious)
 
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