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National Grid warns of possible blackouts

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Bletchleyite

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On the other hand, how many rely on gas-powered electrically circulated central heating, as compared to a gas or coal fire?

I don't recall the central heating system having any impact at all on whether my house is burgled or not or whether I have issues on a dark street :)

(It is a valid point, though, I mentioned the need for alternatives for vulnerable people above, though just whacking it up to 25 degrees an hour or so before the cut should probably keep it reasonably warm throughout it)
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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DelayRepay

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It isn’t just a matter of some burglar alarms perhaps not working and houses and businesses being in darkness. Are the street lights still lit on the same mains electricity as the buildings? If so, whole areas will be in complete darkness. That’s one thing I remember from the blackouts in the 1970s how dark the the streets were. I still remember getting off a brightly lit bus in the the village where I lived and until my eyes got used to the dark I couldn’t see much at all.
When we have power cuts here you hear quite a few house alarms going off - and then again when the power is reinstated. So it will be fun during the blackouts, especially if the home owner has gone somewhere else to avoid the blackout and therefore isn't around to turn their alarm off!

And you're right about the streets. I used to live in a village where the council turned the streetlights off at midnight to save money. It was almost pitch black, but there was a bit of residual light from houses, security lights etc. In the blackouts to come, there will be nothing unless the moon is bright.

I'd like to think the police will focus their patrols on areas that are blacked-out, although there are so few of them that it won't make much of a difference.


Looking here: https://grid.iamkate.com/ it seems there was a huge price spike this afternoon, but it dropped significantly as we went into the evening period. I thought it was late afternoon/early evenings that were expected to be the problem times. Does anyone know why the price has fluctuated so much today?
 

GRALISTAIR

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I dont regard biomass as renewable. It is created by extracting timber from forests using fossil fuelled machines. It is transported to the ports in diesel powered trains. The ships burn a fossil fuel that is known to be a bad pollutant. Then a further diesel powered train to drag the biomass over the pennines.
Thank you for pointing this out - Nor do I.
 

Wychwood93

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Thank you for pointing this out - Nor do I.
There was something on fairly recently (BBC?) which showed that a lot of the wood used for biomass, from Oregon/Washington, was prime timber, rather than the 'waste' stuff which was the company claim. I forget the actual details - hopefully this vague reply will jog a memory?
 

swt_passenger

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When we have power cuts here you hear quite a few house alarms going off - and then again when the power is reinstated. So it will be fun during the blackouts, especially if the home owner has gone somewhere else to avoid the blackout and therefore isn't around to turn their alarm off!

And you're right about the streets. I used to live in a village where the council turned the streetlights off at midnight to save money. It was almost pitch black, but there was a bit of residual light from houses, security lights etc. In the blackouts to come, there will be nothing unless the moon is bright.

I'd like to think the police will focus their patrols on areas that are blacked-out, although there are so few of them that it won't make much of a difference.


Looking here: https://grid.iamkate.com/ it seems there was a huge price spike this afternoon, but it dropped significantly as we went into the evening period. I thought it was late afternoon/early evenings that were expected to be the problem times. Does anyone know why the price has fluctuated so much today?
Perhaps everyone who’d heard the Sunday publicity on Twitter moved this afternoon’s electrical use forward 3 or 4 hours?
 

snowball

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There was something on fairly recently (BBC?) which showed that a lot of the wood used for biomass, from Oregon/Washington, was prime timber, rather than the 'waste' stuff which was the company claim. I forget the actual details - hopefully this vague reply will jog a memory?
I only saw a couple of minutes of it but it's here:


(the link is to the web page of an episode of Panorama first broadcast in October)
 

Bikeman78

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(1) I dont regard biomass as renewable. It is created by extracting timber from forests using fossil fuelled machines. It is transported to the ports in diesel powered trains. The ships burn a fossil fuel that is known to be a bad pollutant. Then a further diesel powered train to drag the biomass over the pennines.
Agreed. How many litres of diesel does it take to move the wood thousands of miles on a ship? I'm struggling to believe that it's more eco friendly than digging up coal a few miles (or even a few hundred miles) from the power station. By all means grow the wood locally, though that would take time of course.
 

snowball

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Agreed. How many litres of diesel does it take to move the wood thousands of miles on a ship? I'm struggling to believe that it's more eco friendly than digging up coal a few miles (or even a few hundred miles) from the power station. By all means grow the wood locally, though that would take time of course.
I agree that the green credentials of biofuel are somewhat dodgy, but the comparison you make is not tbe most relevant one. Burning wood is greener than burning coal because you can plant new trees, where the old ones came from, to re-absorb the CO2 released by burning. With coal, you are releasing CO2 that has been locked up in the ground for millions of years and doing nothing to re-absorb it. The CO2 released as a result of transporting it is probably small in comparison.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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True but it will take decades for a the trees planted to neutralise the CO2 created from burning the wood in the first place. Also biomass is less energy dense than coal so actually emits more CO2/MWh produced. Thus teh reality is biomass is initially worsening the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Should never have been allowed and even worse it receives a subsidy.
 

DelayRepay

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If you plant trees near the power station, and replace them as soon as they're cut down, that would be pretty green I think, especially if combined with carbon capture. But chopping down mature trees on the other side of the world and transporting them to the UK to burn doesn't feel very sustainable to me, even if they plant new trees in America to compensate.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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If you plant trees near the power station, and replace them as soon as they're cut down, that would be pretty green I think, especially if combined with carbon capture. But chopping down mature trees on the other side of the world and transporting them to the UK to burn doesn't feel very sustainable to me, even if they plant new trees in America to compensate.
Watch Panorama thats part of the problem
 

nw1

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If you plant trees near the power station, and replace them as soon as they're cut down, that would be pretty green I think, especially if combined with carbon capture. But chopping down mature trees on the other side of the world and transporting them to the UK to burn doesn't feel very sustainable to me, even if they plant new trees in America to compensate.

Particularly as Drax seems to be in the middle of flat and rather uninteresting land with little scenic value, so one may as well, perhaps, use it to grow trees for use by the power station.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Particularly as Drax seems to be in the middle of flat and rather uninteresting land with little scenic value, so one may as well, perhaps, use it to grow trees for use by the power station.
The land take to supply Drax Biomass is the size of an english county
 

Bald Rick

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The data on Gridwatch shows we are using most of our capacity and topping up with inter-connectors. But that assumes that Europe has the capacity to sell us what we need. There are concerns about the ageing French generation assets. It also shows that today we are largely dependant on non-renewables(1), generated by expensive assets that are idle when the wind blows.

France has upped nuclear generation by a third in the last two weeks or so, with some of their power stations now back on line post maintenance (and more coming in the next few weeks).

Also, treat Gridwatch with a pinch of salt - it is currently showing demand at nearly 47GW, which IIRC is the highest it has been for years. Which seems odd at 2145 on a Monday night. The graphs show a sawtooth profile for the last couple of hours which suggests some data anomaly.

Elsewhere the current demand is shown as 40GW which is much more in line with recent trends.

If you plant trees near the power station, and replace them as soon as they're cut down, that would be pretty green I think, especially if combined with carbon capture.

If we converted most of South Yorkshire to forest, that might just work - in 30 years time.

Drax is on borrowed time.
 

ainsworth74

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Also, treat Gridwatch with a pinch of salt - it is currently showing demand at nearly 47GW, which IIRC is the highest it has been for years. Which seems odd at 2145 on a Monday night. The graphs show a sawtooth profile for the last couple of hours which suggests some data anomaly.
Yes I noticed that they were showing that. I then refreshed a couple of minutes later and it was down to 37GW. So I did wonder if they were having some sort of data blip as it seemed unlikely ten odd GW of electricity demand (and, of course, supply!) just vanished in the space of two minutes!
 

Bald Rick

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Yes I noticed that they were showing that. I then refreshed a couple of minutes later and it was down to 37GW. So I did wonder if they were having some sort of data blip as it seemed unlikely ten odd GW of electricity demand (and, of course, supply!) just vanished in the space of two minutes!

It’s been happening for a few weeks, at seemingly random times of day / week.
 

Bald Rick

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As a power generator it is, but I believe it has a future hosting energy storage units.

Sorry, yes, as a power generator using biomass.

Drax also owns Cruachan pumped storage, plus a few other things.
 

Enthusiast

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True but it will take decades for a the trees planted to neutralise the CO2 created from burning the wood in the first place. Also biomass is less energy dense than coal so actually emits more CO2/MWh produced. Thus teh reality is biomass is initially worsening the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Should never have been allowed and even worse it receives a subsidy.
The scandal that is Drax is one of the greatest confidence tricks of the entire Climate Change industry.

In 2021 the place burnt 8.3m tons of wood pellets and these required more than 16m tons of green wood, most of it originating from 4,000 miles away. Drax owns massive pellet production plants in the USA which consume huge amounts of energy to produce the fuel. Earlier this year it opened a new pellet plant in Alabama and two more are planned in Arkansas. A number of the pellet plants in the USA which supply Drax have seen action for exceeding their harmful emissions limits. Last year it benefitted from almost £1bn in subsidies, these coming from surcharges on energy bills. Its "Carbon Capture" technology has effectively stalled. It has not achieved continuous operation of carbon capture and so far all captured CO2 has been released into the atmosphere. The idea that felling 16m tons of timber to be burnt in Yorkshire is "renewable" on the basis that replacement trees can be planted is frankly laughable (if we were not expected to take it seriously).

It is a scandal of epic proportions which is costing electricity consumers dearly for no tangible benefit - unless they also happen to be shareholders in Drax.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The scandal that is Drax is one of the greatest confidence tricks of the entire Climate Change industry.

In 2021 the place burnt 8.3m tons of wood pellets and these required more than 16m tons of green wood, most of it originating from 4,000 miles away. Drax owns massive pellet production plants in the USA which consume huge amounts of energy to produce the fuel. Earlier this year it opened a new pellet plant in Alabama and two more are planned in Arkansas. A number of the pellet plants in the USA which supply Drax have seen action for exceeding their harmful emissions limits. Last year it benefitted from almost £1bn in subsidies, these coming from surcharges on energy bills. Its "Carbon Capture" technology has effectively stalled. It has not achieved continuous operation of carbon capture and so far all captured CO2 has been released into the atmosphere. The idea that felling 16m tons of timber to be burnt in Yorkshire is "renewable" on the basis that replacement trees can be planted is frankly laughable (if we were not expected to take it seriously).

It is a scandal of epic proportions which is costing electricity consumers dearly for no tangible benefit - unless they also happen to be shareholders in Drax.
Indeed but COP hasn't fully gone against it yet nor has the EU delisted it as a form of renewable energy although there is momentum building against it. The subsidies run out in 2027 and give the size of its generation capacity the UK can't afford to do without it for many years.
 

mike57

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On the other hand, how many rely on gas-powered electrically circulated central heating, as compared to a gas or coal fire?
In our village may be 1 in 5 still have an open fireplace or a woodburner, and we are rural with good access to supplies of wood. If you look at the average town or city I would expect 95% or more to rely on electricity for heating due to the fact that gas boilers still need electricity to function.

If there were widespread power cuts during a cold snap a large proportion of the population would have no heating, and in a lot of cases (new builds/flats etc) no facility to even open a fireplace up. So far we have dodged a bullet, there have been several close calls but no widespread blackouts, how long can that continue, who knows, but sooner or later the worst will happen.
People blame privatisation for the national grid having much less resilience, but really its down to the people who set the rules, i.e. the government, if you set the rules up correctly then the suppliers will provide resilience because its financially rewarding. This includes things like spare capacity, as well as things like ‘black start’ capability and distribution redundancy.

It has been made worse by the need to move away from coal, don’t get me wrong, it’s the right thing to do, but it hasn’t been accompanied by a reappraisal of the whole electrical supply requirements of the UK. Renewables are good, and can provide a lot of our requirements, but the supply is fickle, its dependent on weather conditions, and a cold quiet foggy spell in winter is the worst possible combination of weather. In those conditions we need a reliable fall back, coal is the obvious solution short term, no its not ‘green’ but if you are only using it lets say 15-20 days out of 365 then I don’t see that as a problem. Coal can be easily stored at the point of use, and supplies can be brought in at any time, and if the global situation deteriorated we do have supplies in the UK. Ideally we would need to design power plants that could be started up easily with say 24 hours notice, weather forecasting is now pretty accurate at this timeframe, so supply and demand can be estimated fairly accurately. Nuclear is probably the right solution for the ‘base load’ say 30-40% of UK capacity.

To me carbon capture seems like too much trouble, we should be looking at energy storage, (lots of options here, flow batteries, pumped water, etc.) longer term to allow us to store power for use during the cold winter spells. We should also explore tidal as this is predictable.

The problem is this all costs money, but if we don’t pay the price now we will pay a higher price later. National energy supply security should take a much higher place on the government agenda, as if you get it wrong it can have an economic impact for the whole country as we are discovering now as the Russian aggression towards Ukraine has disrupted the global market. If we had accepted some very modest price rises over the last 20 years we would not be looking at the dire economic situation we now find ourselves in. A secure supply is essential for economic growth, because as we have found out sudden price rises rock the economy because indirectly everything relies on it. I suspect that energy prices (Electricity, fuel, gas etc) are indirectly responsible for a large proportion of the current inflation
 

adc82140

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On what has been a dull, slightly misty day today I have generated 2.1kWH from the solar panels on the roof. Enough to run a 750W heater for most of the morning effectively for free. My home office was toasty! Quite why all new houses are not built with panels is beyond me.
 

philthetube

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F

Also, treat Gridwatch with a pinch of salt - it is currently showing demand at nearly 47GW, which IIRC is the highest it has been for years. Which seems odd at 2145 on a Monday night. The graphs show a sawtooth profile for the last couple of hours which suggests some data anomaly.
Football just finished and all the kettles gone on. :D
 
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