National Express terminating at Huntingdon

[Jordy]

On 14th, 15th, 21st and 22nd March, National Express are terminating their trains at Huntingdon (some at least) due to engineering works near Welwyn. I know this has happened before, and was just wondering how it is operationally handled, as far as I can tell trains would have to do a shunt move to get to the correct platform, as neither platforms are bi directional.

Any ideas?

Cheers

Jordy

 

[Tomnick]

A simple up-to-down shunt via the north end of the station would certainly get the set in the right platform for departure, but equally special instructions could be issued to allow passenger trains to depart northwards from the up platform, under the authority of the position light signal. I suppose the chosen option depends upon the turnaround time available, and the presence of other movements terminating at, or passing through, the station!

 

[O L Leigh]

The position light signal would need to be reinforced with a handsignaller because a passenger train cannot start away from a "dod", but the move is sound. I've done the self-same thing at Cheshunt a few times.

O L Leigh

 

[Royston Vasey]

On 14th, 15th, 21st and 22nd March, National Express are terminating their trains at Huntingdon (some at least)

I checked after posting in the GC thread and it appears to be all trains, including HST operated. The only services on the NXEC mixing desk that didn't include bustitution were those with GC connections York-Cambridge.

Hope this helps

 

[Donny Dave]

Should be no problem with starting from a GPL, as that happens at Stevenage whenever NXEC terminate some trains there. It's also happened at Crowle when the line between Crowle and Scunthorpe has been closed in the past.

 

[O L Leigh]

Nope. The rules don't permit it.

It's OK if the train is ECS (e.g. to carry out a shunt move), but it's a no-no if you've got passengers on. For that you need a handsignaller.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Nope. The rules don't permit it.

It's OK if the train is ECS (e.g. to carry out a shunt move), but it's a no-no if you've got passengers on. For that you need a handsignaller.

O L Leigh

Yep that's it, except in an emergency I believe.

 

[Tomnick]

Certainly in the case of Crowle, the move between running lines is worked from a ground frame (which will probably be worked by NR staff?), so there has to be someone on-site who can (again, probably?!) act as handsignalman. Not sure whether there's even a GPL for the moves across the crossover?

But in any case, in the emergency situation mentioned above, and in the presumed absence of a handsignalman, the driver will receive his authority to 'take' the GPL from the signalman? Given that the handsignalman will surely be working to the signalman's instructions anyway, is there any reason (other than the rules, which I've not got time to confirm tonight) why the driver can't receive that authority directly from the signalman? Does the provision of special instructions relating to the arrangements for a specific block (such as the one requiring booked reversals at Crowle) alter things? Just wondering!

 

[upyourjunction]

I can tell you that it is allowed & no Handsignaler will be required, the Driver would first speak to the Signaller to confirm wich line he will be going over, its done when turning back at Stevenage or Finsbury Park!

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to explain this clearly, but I'll give it a go.

When you're working passenger trains in service (as opposed to ECS) you have to start from a main aspect signal. GPL's are really only there for shunt moves and not the movement of trains in service. Because a GPL cannot show a main aspect for a particular move you need to have a handsignaller to show the driver a yellow flag/light as an equivalent to a single yellow main aspect signal, even though the move might be signalled. Yes the signaller could speak to the driver directly to authorise the move, but the signaller can't show the driver a yellow down the phone.

There are exceptions to this in the case of "running GPL's" where a GPL between two main aspect signals has to be cleared so that the train is not effectively passing a red signal. However, if you've been authorised to enter a signal section by a main aspect signal you can effectively ignore the "running GPL" anyway because you've already been authorised to proceed as far as the next main aspect signal. You can't go from a main aspect to a GPL.

It may be the case that there has been some sharp dealing at Stevenage and Finsbury Park. Equally it may be that the case that the relevant conversations between signaller, handsignaller and driver all took place inside the cab out of sight (this happened with me at Cheshunt). However, it doesn't change the fact that the rules do not permit you to start a passenger train in service from a GPL without a handsignaller.

I'm not sure what the situation at Crowle is. Perhaps the movement is entirely unsignalled, as is often the case with ground frames. This is the problem we have with turning back at Harlow Town.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Rule book section S states

3.1 Passenger train at a position-light, shunt-ahead or shunting signal

Unless you are instructed to do so by the signaller or by another
person acting on the signaller’s instructions, you must not proceed
with a passenger train on the authority of:

• a shunt-ahead subsidiary signal
• a semaphore shunting signal
• a position-light signal.

However, you are permitted to proceed with a passenger train on
the authority of a position-light or calling-on signal only if you are
entering a permissive platform line.

====

So the normal state of affairs is, if needs be, the signaller can instruct the driver by telephone/DOO take to the position lights - say due to failure/accident/obstruction. If you have say booked engineering work, the normal practice is to place a handsignaller there who works under the instructions of the signaller.

 

[Tomnick]

Metroland's explanation makes sense to me - that's sort of what I was getting at, but wasn't sure whether the handsignalman was a specific requirement or just a means of speeding the process up where the move is planned in advance. I fully accept O L Leigh's post (which sounds spot on - and pretty clear! - to me), but I'm not so sure about the signalman not being able to give the same 'assurance' verbally as the handsignalman has done with his flag. After all, the signalman's the one who knows whether, for example, the overlap is maintained at the next running signal (where it might not be required for the shunt route from the GPL in normal working), so he's just instructing the handsignalman accordingly.

 

[upyourjunction]

Rule book section S states

3.1 Passenger train at a position-light, shunt-ahead or shunting signal

Unless you are instructed to do so by the signaller or by another
person acting on the signaller’s instructions,
QUOTE]

Like I said We converse with the signaller, It means that you can't just go on the clearing of the GPL. Wether they will provide a Handsignaller or not will be up to NR but they haven't the last few times I've been involved.

 

[Metroland]

Depends on several factors, handsignalmen can save a lot of time (read delay) in contacting drivers and conveying instructions.

In theory and in general though, under the guise of 'emergency', provided the line is clear, and points are set (and possibly clipped and scotched as required) the signaller can instruct the driver to do most moves, provided it is safe - including working over goods loops, passing numerous failed signals, setting back on an unsignalled move towards the opposite running like say the line was closed by a flood, fire, crash and so on.

 

[A0]

On 14th, 15th, 21st and 22nd March, National Express are terminating their trains at Huntingdon (some at least) due to engineering works near Welwyn. I know this has happened before, and was just wondering how it is operationally handled, as far as I can tell trains would have to do a shunt move to get to the correct platform, as neither platforms are bi directional.

Any ideas?

Cheers

Jordy

I'm surprised that given the engineering works are in the Welwyn area that they're terminating at Huntingdon. I'd have thought Stevenage would be more logical, particularly if it's coach replacements to south of Welwyn