Nasty little GroupSave trick

[padaliuk]

Over the weekend, I travelled from London to Norwich and back with my wife and son, using off-peak open returns bought online via the National Rail site. All three of us have railcards, so I entered the details on booking and got the 33% discount. On the way back, we changed at Cambridge, where my wife and I took a train to Kings Cross and my son one to Liverpool St (the tickets were for any London terminal). When our tickets were checked, we were told that we had GroupSave tickets which were not valid unless all 3 of us were on the same train. Luckily, we had an intelligent ticket inspector and didn't have to pay any more once I explained.

There was no warning on the tickets that they were restricted, other than a cryptic GPS-3 code (we live in Virgin Rail territory and had no idea what that meant). I have just run through the National Rail booking process again and found that it substitutes GroupSave tickets for the unrestricted ones at the "View and Buy" stage with no warning other than the word Groupsave in small print in brackets, no options and no mention of any restrictions in the Details box or in the full Terms and Conditions. As far as I could see, there was no way to stop it forcing GroupSave tickets and restrictions on me other than by buying them in separate transactions. When I clicked on "Edit tickets" it still told me I was buying tickets for 3 adults with railcards, but changed it to GroupSave again when I went back to the Buy screen.

I assume this is incompetence rather than a deliberate scam to make money from the unwary (though, looking at many other posts, I don't know why I should be so generous). Has anyone else been caught by this, or found a way to order 3 tickets together (so that I can reserve seats together) without being forcibly switched to restricted ones?

 

[jopsuk]

Which retailer did you actually buy the tickets from? When you go through National Rail, they don't actually sell you tickets, directing you instead to websites that do- looking, it appears that for London to Norwich it defaults to National Express East Anglia, and indeed there seems to be no way with this website to buy three individual returns together rather than a Groupsave.
Searched for London-Norwich travelling return on Saturday, Three Adults, one 16-25 and two Network Railcard- not sure what you had, but seemed a fair guess? Total £82.05

I don't think there's deliberate malice- I think the programmers haven't even considered that someone may want to do what you did.

Using the booking engine at East Coast, by comparison, doesn't offer the Groupsave fare at all, instead offering three Off Peak Returns for a total of £110.15

 

[asylumxl]

It's not much of a trick. It's written in the restrictions. It's just not made blatantly obvious to passengers.

 

[bnm]

Did you actually read the OP Asylumxl?. In what restrictions is it written that if you attempt to buy three tickets through NRE it will automatically offer GroupSave?

 

[padaliuk]

Sorry - got a bit carried away once I started ranting. I don't object to Groupsave tickets having restrictions, just to National Rail switching me to an inferior ticket at the same price, without asking or warning me. I know I should have read all the small print on each screen carefully but I didn't have a lot of time and foolishly assumed that, if NR wasn't prepared to sell me what I had asked for, it would say so clearly. Yes, jopsuk, I did buy from National Express EA at 82.05 (two senior and one 16-25), but the switch was made by NR before I was offered the choice.

 

[jopsuk]

It's odd- I looked at the process, and whilst the final page on National Rail says you can buy from anywhere, it only gives you a button that leads direct to NXEA- to buy from elsewhere, you'd need to know where to go (for a start) and then re-enter all your journey details, whilst the direct button takes you to the NXEA retail site with all details pre-filled. But if you'd gone through East Coast, and weren't splitting up enroute, you'd never have known that you could have saved nearly thirty quid with the Group Save. Some lovely consistency- one gives you no option BUT to buy the GS, the other doesn't tell you it exists!

asylumxl- this is actually a good example of some of the myriad problems faced by "ordinary" passengers who don't know the ticket system inside out.

 

[MikeWh]

Underneath the box with the NXEA logo in it is a link to buy from other operators. That then gives you a dropdown menu with all the TOC sites. If you choose East Coast then it doesn't offer groupsave, as has been noted, but, if you amend the details and add back in the three seperate railcards it will then offer you the £82.05 price. Bingo!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I've worked in IT for a very long time (28 years come october) and I frequently despair of the inadequate IT systems which are deployed

 

[padaliuk]

Thanks jopsuk, that's really useful (and I don't mind being called an ordinary passenger, as long as it's not "customer"). I checked the East Coast site and they would have sold me the tickets I wanted at the same 82.05 price - I'll use them next time. Unfortunately I have already bought tickets to Cambridge next weekend for me, the boy and his girlfriend, and I see that NR has done the same again.

 

[MikeWh]

You can always go straight to the East Coast site and do the whole booking there.

 

[stut]

The NXEA site (and so I assume related booking engines) does a similar trick if you've got multiple passengers, but one with a Network Railcard.

Recently, I booked three travelcards from Colchester with a Y-P, a Senior and Network Railcard. What the booking engine decided to do was to book us all under the Network Railcard. As it turned out, this wasn't a problem, as we'd decided to all travel together. Had we not, it would have been rather annoying.

Yes, if you look closely, it's stated, and yes, if you want, you can use other sites or book three separate tickets. Doesn't stop it being annoying and poorly implemented.

 

[mumrar]

So you've started an entire thread based on the nastiness of TOCs ans ticketing which surrounds groupsave tickets. I looked up the word 'group' on my phone's dicitonary. It says it is 'a number of persons or objects that are together'.

That is pretty much how I understood the word, so how you come to not realise that a group ticket doesn't involve a group of people I don't know. If you and the people you bought the tickets for are not travelling together, you don't constitute a group do you? What are you actually expecting the TOCs to do, sit you down and make sure you're up to at least GCSE English before you're allowed to purchase a ticket?

Of course I have absolutely no doubt that you knew exactly what the 'save' part of the ticket meant without having to be provided an explanation, so why did 'group' trouble you so much?

 

[Mojo]

That is pretty much how I understood the word, so how you come to not realise that a group ticket doesn't involve a group of people I don't know. What are you actually expecting the TOCs to do, sit you down and make sure you're up to at least GCSE English before you're allowed to purchase a ticket?

Of course I have absolutely no doubt that you knew exactly what the 'save' part of the ticket meant without having to be provided an explanation, so why did 'group' trouble you so much?

Since you are going down the road of insulting people, perhaps it is you who needs to consult a dictionary.

If you had read above, you would have seen that this is not what the complaint was about. The OP did not request GroupSave tickets when checking timetable or fares information and the system, presumably trying to be helpful, added GroupSave tickets when three persons were selected, meaning the OP went to the final stage and purchased the tickets without being aware that something he did not ask for, with more restrictions but for the same price as what he actually requested, was sold to him.

 

[MikeWh]

So you've started an entire thread based on the nastiness of TOCs ans ticketing which surrounds groupsave tickets. I looked up the word 'group' on my phone's dicitonary. It says it is 'a number of persons or objects that are together'.

That is pretty much how I understood the word, so how you come to not realise that a group ticket doesn't involve a group of people I don't know. What are you actually expecting the TOCs to do, sit you down and make sure you're up to at least GCSE English before you're allowed to purchase a ticket?

Of course I have absolutely no doubt that you knew exactly what the 'save' part of the ticket meant without having to be provided an explanation, so why did 'group' trouble you so much?

Could it be because they wanted the flexibility to not travel all the way together. As they all had individual railcards this shouldn't have been a problem. What they did want was to be able to book adjacent seats on one of the services that they would use. I can't see what the problem with that is. Unfortunately the NRES website thinks that rather than issue what is being asked for (3 seperate tickets each with it's own railcard) it'll issue 3 tickets that all have to be used together all the time.

It's amazing how many people on here read a title and assume what a thread is going to be about without reading the detail.

 

[mumrar]

If you had read above you would have seen that this is not what the complaint was about. The OP did not request GroupSave tickets when checking timetable or fares information and the system, presumably trying to be helpful, added GroupSave tickets when three persons were selected, meaning the OP went to the final stage and purchased the tickets without being aware that something he did not ask for, with more restrictions but for the same price as what he actually requested, was sold to him.

I had read the above, but the thread title conspired to make it a little ambiguous. I'll have a look at the website when I get back and try and replicate the same thing and see what happens. It seems odd that a) it would do this without saying.....b) especially at the final stage where you are usually asked to check and confirm what tickets you have ordered.

Apologies for my getting mixed up, it happens more often than I'd like these days

It IS my fault for not reading through properly, so I'll bow out (dis)gracefully now

 

[wibble]

Although it's not ideal, the booking engine (probably a trainline.com white lable) has seen that there are 3 people travelling and automatically applied the GroupSave discount. Unfortunately, there is little explanation of what the restrictions of a GroupSave ticket are.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The issue here is that the system is not designded to cope with this kind of enquiry. It must offer the cheapest fare for the journey you have entered.

You ask it for three returns to London, it says "three returns to the same destination, groupsave is cheapest, £82.05p, please"

Likewise if you went to a ticket office and asked for three returns to London, they should offer groupsave (although they will give you warning about travelling together, the website should do this aswell at some point in the transaction), as it is the cheapest option.

That said, if you asked for two returns to Kings Cross and one to Liverpool St., the clerk would never offer the groupsave fare as it would not be valid.

If the website has a 'basket', perhaps try entering specific stations next time and add them to your basket.

 

[tony_mac]

if you went to a ticket office and asked for three returns to London, they should offer groupsave

not if you already asked for the tickets with 3 railcards, which is what happened here!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Speaking as a TO clerk, if I was asked for three returns to London, with or without railcards, and there was no indication that one of the journeys would be made seperately, the groupsave fare would be the easiest to issue and therefore the primary choice.

If it was clear that in actual fact they were not travelling together for part, or all of, the journey, then ofcourse they'd be issued seperately.

If you tell the website that you are travelling to the same destination at the same time, it will pick the simplest of the cheapest options. With groupsave there is no 'forgetting your railcard' worries, or anything like that, so it is, in a way, simpler.

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make.

 

[Greenback]

Once again, the human interaction has the advantage as the clerk can simply ask if the passengers are travelling together in both directions and then issue the ticket, if appropriate!

 

[MikeWh]

Whilst I understand what you are saying HHF, the specific detail is that you select 3 passengers and their respective railcards. It acknowledges this by stating at the top of the fares column "...based on 3 adults, 3 railcards". You then choose random train times (as it's a CDR) and click "Buy now". On the next screen it shows the summary and offers to transfer you to the NX website. It is on this summary screen that the 3 railcards have magically become a groupsave discount.

 

[jopsuk]

Although it's not ideal, the booking engine (probably a trainline.com white lable) has seen that there are 3 people travelling and automatically applied the GroupSave discount. Unfortunately, there is little explanation of what the restrictions of a GroupSave ticket are.

But, what with the flexibility of the booking engine, there's no reason not to show both fares as options. As I've pointed out already, there's the baffling situation whereby two different booking engines show fares that the other doesn't.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I had a similar experience; a group of eight of us went from London Victoria to Whitstable and back; and were sold 2 sets of Groupsave-4 tickets.

As it happens, we didn't come back as a group of eight, or two groups of four, but as five and three - which is clearly against the rules of Groupsave. On my journey back the ticket inspector told us we should have travelled back as four together, but well, he wasn't really bothered and wouldn't issue us with penalty fares but really we should not do that again- and the others similarly didn't have any trouble; not did we from the ticket inspectors at Victoria.

It is true that this condition pertaining to Groupsave tickets is not clearly stated in advertising (or indeed when we bought the tickets). I wonder how frequently it is enforced?

 

[southerner2174]

We've been told when issuing groupsave tickets to issue them on 1 combined ticket rather than all separate ones, this is to stop people breaking the conditions of use

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whilst I understand what you are saying HHF, the specific detail is that you select 3 passengers and their respective railcards. It acknowledges this by stating at the top of the fares column "...based on 3 adults, 3 railcards". You then choose random train times (as it's a CDR) and click "Buy now". On the next screen it shows the summary and offers to transfer you to the NX website. It is on this summary screen that the 3 railcards have magically become a groupsave discount.

I don't know how the transfer between sites is programmed, but if the NX website double-checks the prices and ticket selection, it might come across Groupsave first, or decide that it is a better option as it appears you are travelling together anyway, I don't really know, but it seems to me that it could be a logical choice for a computer to make based on what it is told.

The NR site might think differently and as it has no reason to push a promotion above anything else it accepts the railcard choices.

 

[Username]

There used to be a similar problem with the Groupsave ticket offered by ScotRail.

The only route the Groupsave is valid on is between Edinburgh and Glasgow but when people were buying them online the system would offer the ticket type as an option on every route.

It became quite common to have three or four people on a Groupsave travelling between Inverness and Aberdeen. But as the fault was considered to lie with the company, tickets were always accepted (rightly so).

I believe the problem was highlighted to the marketing department repeatedly but they seemed to have a devil of a job tweaking the system to restrict the routes on which it was offered, to the point they considered just removing the ability to purchase Groupsave tickets online. I'm not sure how they fixed it in the end.

 

[Paul Kelly]

they seemed to have a devil of a job tweaking the system to restrict the routes on which it was offered, to the point they considered just removing the ability to purchase Groupsave tickets online.

I think I can understand that - from my adventures exploring the Avantix Traveller data files:

• Groupsave discounts (GS3, GS4 or GRP) are handled in exactly the same way as railcards and other status discounts
• There is a facility for discounts to be restricted by the locations between which they apply; this is done by associating each location with a list of the discounts that apply there. If both the origin and destination location for a fare have a particular discount listed, then the discount is assumed to apply. This is how the validity of regional railcards such as the Network Railcard or Dales Railcard is handled for example. In the case of the latter it exposes a limitation in the system, as Avantix will happily allow you to discount a fare from Leeds to Bradford with a Dales Railcard for example, when in fact it is only allowed to be used for journeys beyond Skipton. The system logic is not advanced enough to handle that.
• Groupsave discounts are *not* geographically restricted - the Avantix data says they apply to all journeys. Presumably this is a throwback to BR days when they did apply on all journeys? I'm not sure.
• If groupsave discounts were to be geographically restricted, it would mean a bit of work for someone adding to the database all the locations at which they were accepted. The validity could still be over-ridden for certain flows if necessary. But such a solution would require some co-ordination and leadership from ATOC so the change to the fares data was implemented consistently; they couldn't just leave it up to the operators to randomly change their part of it as marking the discount as geographically restricted would affect other operators. So they just leave it in a messy state I suppose. Maybe additional groupsave restrictions are "hacked in" in the internet booking engines.
• Some operators have "gone it alone" and added their own clever hacks to work around this restriction, e.g. the way East Midlands Trains have added new ticket types (GR3 and GR4) for group save because the traditional way of treating it as a type of discount was too limiting for their requirements.

Ultimately I think the problem is a British Rail-era computer system being stretched beyond its limits, compounded by ATOC's inability to show any leadership on improving it. This opinion of mine is almost entirely formed from looking at the structure of the data files; I have no other insight at all!

I'm not sure how they fixed it in the end.

My guess would just be a special workaround in the booking engine - like a layer on top of the fares database that blocks any requests for Groupsave on routes it isn't valid on.

 

[gordonthemoron]

AFAIR, BR didn't do groupsave. Although you may have a point regarding the BR era computer system. Where are you now Brendan Dawson

 

[Mojo]

I think I can understand that - from my adventures exploring the Avantix Traveller data files:

<snip>

British Rail-era computer system being stretched beyond its limits, compounded by ATOC's inability to show any leadership on improving it. This opinion of mine is almost entirely formed from looking at the structure of the data files; I have no other insight at all!

My guess would just be a special workaround in the booking engine - like a layer on top of the fares database that blocks any requests for Groupsave on routes it isn't valid on.

I am certainly interested by how you have looked into the system, and I would suppose it depends on how the system works out the price. One might assume it takes the standard price and applies the appropriate discount automatically taking the data from the fares calculator for a 34% discount when a Railcard is input (and a 34% discount for GS3/50% discount for GS4).

However on the Severn Beach Line, Railcard holders are entitled to a 50% discount, and this is shown in Avantix and not just local fares instructions, so I would perhaps question how it works. Are all fares entered for all different Railcards, in which case can they set a £999 fare for routes where Groupsave is not valid (like you often see for "Kids for a Quid" fares when an adult is selected), or simply delete the fare?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I am certainly interested by how you have looked into the system,

Just by reverse-engineering the binary file format used in the refdata.dat, memdata.dat and faredata.dat files. It has taken a lot of persistence but nothing is encrypted; everything is stored either in ASCII text or 2-byte or 4-byte integers and things are cross-referenced between the different files using various combinations of indexes and offsets from the start of the files. I've had to put the work I'm doing on it on hold for a couple of months as I just have too much else on at the minute but eventually I'll probably think of putting together an open-source library that people can use for working with the fares data.

and I would suppose it depends on how the system works out the price. One might assume it takes the standard price and applies the appropriate discount automatically taking the data from the fares calculator for a 34% discount when a Railcard is input (and a 34% discount for GS3/50% discount for GS4).

That's basically how it works yes, although in reality its slightly more complicated as a discount can either be a percentage or a flat fare, the latter possibly subject to minimum or maximum values. And all tickets are grouped into 20 discount categories (roughly corresponding to anytime, off-peak, advance, season etc.), and a railcard can give a different type of discount (or none at all) on each category of tickets. Plus a railcard/discount can apply differently to first or standard class, single or return tickets (well the flexibility to do that is there, but I haven't yet seen any that apply different discounts to single and return tickets).

Also, the discounts and fares can be over-ridden on a per-flow basis (although this adds a lot of extra bloat to the faredata.dat file as both the adult and child fares for every railcard/discount valid for a particular ticket type have to be explicitly specified, if any are specified at all).

However on the Severn Beach Line, Railcard holders are entitled to a 50% discount, and this is shown in Avantix and not just local fares instructions, so I would perhaps question how it works. Are all fares entered for all different Railcards, in which case can they set a £999 fare for routes where Groupsave is not valid (like you often see for "Kids for a Quid" fares when an adult is selected), or simply delete the fare?

I looked into this one and its exactly as you suggest - for the relevant flows the default railcard discounts are overridden and every valid ticket type and railcard combination are explicitly specified. Taking Clifton Down to Montpelier as an example, the following railcard/discounts are valid and no others: DIC, DIS, FAM, GS3, GS4, HMF, PRD, PRV, SRN, TAD and YNG. A full price SDR is £2; with TAD, PRD and PRV it is 50p and £1 for all the others except GS3 which is £1.35.

As far as I can see nobody should have to set a £999 fare to show something is invalid; this likely results from a misunderstanding of the database structure. It is perfectly possible to set a flag to say "no adult fare" or "no child fare" for a given ticket/railcard combination. There are a lot of different ways of doing the same thing and it seems each TOC does its own thing - hence my thoughts about ATOC not providing any leadership and letting the database get very messy.