'Narrow' South West Trains' seats criticised

[northwichcat]

Just wait until the BBC workers commute to Manchester on a Mid-Cheshire lines Pacer!

I bet they won't though. They'll drive to tram stops and then complain that the A556(M) hasn't been built yet.

Saying that North West Tonight presenter Gordon Burns had a right moan about the Metrolink service one day when he caught that instead of driving in.

 

[radamfi]

but many people don't wish to take the middle seat and stand for the 25 minute run to Waterloo. People cannot really complain about standing when they choose not to avail themselves of the middle seats.

That contradicts what was said earlier - that whenever middle seats are provided, they are used in preference to standing.

The 450s are not ideal, but what is the alternative?

What do they do in the rest of Europe?

 

[WestCoast]

I bet they won't though. They'll drive to tram stops and then complain that the A556(M) hasn't been built yet.

Probably, although a few more adventurous types might catch the train! The guy that does the business on BBC Breakfast I can imagine him doing it. The two presenters and him all sat together on the sofa to demonstrate 450 3-abreast seating - it did give me a laugh!
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What do they do in the rest of Europe?

Double Deckers! I am a big fan but people on here don't like them all that much due to supposed slower boarding/alighting - I have not found it too much of a problem with the well disciplined Dutch commuters..

 

[radamfi]

I bet they won't though. They'll drive to tram stops and then complain that the A556(M) hasn't been built yet.

Saying that North West Tonight presenter Gordon Burns had a right moan about the Metrolink service one day when he caught that instead of driving in.

Are they going to do that show from MediaCityUK? Maybe they will be more likely to use Metrolink if so.
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Double Deckers! I am a big fan but people on here don't like them all that much due to supposed slower boarding/alighting - I have not found it too much of a problem with the well disciplined Dutch commuters..

They have huge doors which does speed up boarding/alighting.

 

[WestCoast]

Are they going to do that show from MediaCityUK? Maybe they will be more likely to use Metrolink if so.

I know BBC Breakfast, Radio 5 Live, Match of the Day and North West Today/Tonight will all take up residence in MediaCityUK. So, they may well take the tram to the studio if they are coming from the City Centre/South Manchester.

However, I doubt many of the presenters will live in Salford/Manchester (although the production teams may well do), leafy Cheshire is more likely, hence my suggestion of the train. But the early presenters will obviously drive, as the the trams are not going to be 24/7! I know the plan is to run a dedicated shuttle tram from Cornbrook to MediaCityUK (to connect with trams from City Centre/Piccadilly/Altrincham)

 

[Blindtraveler]

are there any runs where deckers would work here without masive works?

 

[northwichcat]

Are they going to do that show from MediaCityUK? Maybe they will be more likely to use Metrolink if so.

Yes. All TV production in Manchester will move in that direction eventually.

360 Media Productions for BBC Manchester, which include A Question of Sport and Mastermind have moved in to Media City. (They previously hired studios from ITV Granada.)

BBC North West Tonight and other BBC departments at Manchester Oxford Road e.g. Religion are next to move.

Then departments from London such as BBC Breakfast and 5 Live.

Finally, ITV Granada will move to move to new studios on the other side of the canal from BBC which will include local news, Coronation Street, Countdown and University Challenge.
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are there any runs where deckers would work here without masive works?

Would they work on Manchester-Buxton services?

 

[WestCoast]

They have huge doors which does speed up boarding/alighting.

They do indeed and I have never seen a Double Decker with 3-2 seating

 

[Ivo]

I have never seen a Double Decker with 3-2 seating

Maybe but imagine the seating capacity on that! 12 cars with 75 seats on one level and 60 on the other is over 1,600 seats!

 

[PhilipW]

Also, of course, there are lots on commuters from Winchester, Basingstoke and Woking that get on the 444s from Bournemouth. So ..... should we take the 2+2 seats out of them and retrofit 3+2 in. The fuss that the Portmouth passengers are creating would pale into insignificance compared to the row that would create.


I wonder what the 1st Class takings are like on the Portsmouth line. Poor I would suspect. First Class in a 450 is the same as Standard Class in a 444.

 

[northwichcat]

However, I doubt many of the presenters will live in Salford/Manchester (although the production teams may well do), leafy Cheshire is more likely, hence my suggestion of the train.

If you take current BBC/ITV on screen employees that have revealed their location:
Gordon Burns lives in Hale
Fred Talbot lives in Bowdon
Lucy Meacock lives in Chester
Tony Morris lives in Ramsbottom
Heather Stott lives in Macclesfield
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They do indeed and I have never seen a Double Decker with 3-2 seating

The DB Regios Double Deckers also have longitudinal seating near the doors and stairs, presumably to act both as standing areas and help speed up alighting.

 

[radamfi]

I wonder what the 1st Class takings are like on the Portsmouth line. Poor I would suspect. First Class in a 450 is the same as Standard Class in a 444.

On the other hand, there may be Portsmouth Line passengers who were quite happy in Standard in a 444 or 442 but baulk at the prospect of 3+2 seating so they upgrade to First Class to retain 2+2 seating.

Have the DfT mandated a certain number of seats on the Portsmouth Line? If so, SWT may not be able to go back to 2+2 seating even if they wanted to.

 

[WestCoast]

If you take current BBC/ITV on screen employees that have revealed their location:

I believe Ranvir Singh lives in/near Preston

 

[BestWestern]

Being originally from the area myself, even I'd have to admit that the Portsmouth-run commuters are pushing it a bit with this constant complaining over their 'inferior' trains. I can recall similar media reports from years back ranting about the 'draughty, unsafe, uncomfortable' slammers, and now we have similar stories bemoaning the 450's. The simple reality is that commuting by rail in modern Britain is all about crowded trains and journeys that are to be endured rather than enjoyed. The capacity was needed, and this was the most effective way to provide it. It's far from ideal but sadly it's the way of things. Try the 17.00 FGW from Brighton on a friday night when it's formed of a 150! A 150 which then makes a five hour run up-country, with no catering and nowhere to put the masses of luggage which invariably turns up with the passengers. The Desiro fleet does suffer from nasty hard seating in general, which is a pitty, and a 442 made for a much nicer journey, but these commuters should also bear in mind that in many other places the train that would turn up would be something closer to a 455!

 

[WestCoast]

The DB Regios Double Deckers also have longitudinal seating near the doors and stairs, presumably to act both as standing areas and help speed up alighting.

The newest version with the sloped ramps at the doors (instead of mid-levels) do - but the older models actually feature longitudinal table seating on some of the mid-level sections in addition to a small number of 'tip-up' transverse seats.

 

[Ministry]

I do the full Portsmouth-London journey quite often and tbh I've got used to the mix of 450s and 444s and don't really mind which one turns up. That being said, I wish SWT had kept the 442s and split the 458 fleet with Southern to make up the shortfall on the Gat-Ex (seeing as they previously took two of them anyway).

That way the 450s could have taken the outer-suburban routes and the Gat-Ex would have the additional capacity it needed (plus the 460s could have stayed on the route they were purpose built for).

 

[PhilipW]

There seems to be a common argument here that any one who travels on a train higher than a Pacer should stop moaning as they are better off that those Pacer travellers. So, in effect, Pacers become the British standard of train travel. Oh dear. Is it a case of "Let's not attempt to raise standards elsewhere, they should be set to the lowest common denominator".

I write this slightly cynically and with tongue in cheek, but that's the point some seek to be suggesting.

I am all in favour of Pacer Users in the North West kicking up stink and moaning about their trains. In fact, I think they should kick up more stink. I fully support them. I am also glad I don't have to travel on them now. I do recall a pretty miserable journey on one from Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester 20 years ago.

While wishing Pacer complainants well, I have no problem in supporting Class 450 Users and their gripes. Suburban 3+2 stock for commuter runs and 2+2 stock for longer distance runs. Makes total sense to me. Standards will get worse with TOCs running travelling sardine cans unless passengers continually air their views. I think Portsmouth travellers have a perfectly good reason to complain when 2+2 trains were replaced (by stealth) with 3+2 trains a few years back.

 

[aspierail]

I would say Class 450 are decent units and have better ride quality then Class 377 however the seats are not the most comfortable and 3+2 seating isn't the best but i find the media and other passengers rather negative and should learn to be a bit more positive about the railways instead of complaining about it.

 

[starrymarkb]

They have longer trains, more frequent services, double decker trains etc.

You sure about more frequent, our network has the highest frequencies in europe, most continental trains are hourly at best!

 

[radamfi]

You sure about more frequent, our network has the highest frequencies in europe, most continental trains are hourly at best!

I think he was talking about commuter services where crowding is a possibility.

In the Netherlands, hourly is the MINIMUM frequency for any domestic service, 7 days a week. Most lines run at least half hourly with many lines in the west of the country running 4 or more trains per hour with long double decker trains in the peak hours.

 

[WestCoast]

There seems to be a common argument here that any one who travels on a train higher than a Pacer should stop moaning as they are better off that those Pacer travellers. So, in effect, Pacers become the British standard of train travel. Oh dear. Is it a case of "Let's not attempt to raise standards elsewhere, they should be set to the lowest common denominator".

I agree to a certain extent as I don't support the argument that anyone who travels higher than a pacer should stop moaning. I have experienced both the Class 450 and a Class 350/2 (which is essentially the same train with the same seats) on longer journeys and have been satisfied with the comfort levels. I just didn't think the cause warranted such a campaign - however, we are all entitled to our opinions as fare-payers and I totally respect that.

I am all in favour of Pacer Users in the North West kicking up stink and moaning about their trains. In fact, I think they should kick up more stink. I fully support them. I am also glad I don't have to travel on them now. I do recall a pretty miserable journey on one from Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester 20 years ago.

Yes, once the class 180s (all three of them!) are taken away from Northern Rail in favour of more pacers then the TOC will have no post-privatisation DMUs - and that is not right. The condition of the rolling stock is only going to get worse with age. A massive campaign could take place - but nothing would happen! The DafT simply can't/won't get decent rolling stock for Northern - everyone's cast offs are always the plan. Much of the peak overcrowding on the network could be easily reduced with more rolling stock but it's not forthcoming, whereas SWT can never be uncrowded in the peaks due to the nature of the London commute!

 

[Yew]

Surely we can get some 150's for northern? On the robin hood line (worksop => nottingham) you barely ever see a train out of rush hour full, and ive been on some of their nice 158's and gone all the way from nottingham to end of service at woodhouse, and there have barely been...20 people on the train?

how about we send some pacers down to portsmouth for a week, (142's, most of the 144's are actually quite nice) then see how they like it

 

[WestCoast]

ive been on some of their nice 158's and gone all the way from nottingham to end of service at woodhouse, and there have barely been...20 people on the train?

how about we send some pacers down to portsmouth for a week, (142's, most of the 144's are actually quite nice) then see how they like it

Outside of the peaks, SWT trains can also be rather quiet, someone who travels more regularly with them will know how quiet certain off-peak services are. Hence initiatives such as Megatrain.

Regarding the Leeds - Nottingham Northern 158 service, I don't know much about it, it's relatively new but I have heard it can be quiet.

I don't want to turn this thread into some sort of plea for more Northern Rail stock so do carry on about SWT's seating

 

[Via Bank]

Odd, isn't it, how people will complain about the horrible, hard, three-abreast, cramped seating with no handrests on Desiros.

And yet, they will quite happily tolerate such conditions in a private car, or a taxi.

(Also, my tuppence's worth: I use 450s virtually every day, and I like them. The trick when crowded is to squeeze yourself into the centre seat on the three-across bays without bumping into anyone else. And mind your legs.)

 

[northwichcat]

You sure about more frequent, our network has the highest frequencies in europe, most continental trains are hourly at best!

Yes I'm sure. Most local services in to Manchester are hourly, while most services in to German cities on S-Bahn are at least every 10 minutes.

 

[PhilipW]

When we buy a shirt, we all like to make sure we have bought a correct fit one. I have just measured one of mine - 51 cm from the shoulder/arm join on one side to the other. Class 450 seats are just 43cms -- hmm, sound like a bit of hunched shoulders then when sitting down.

If it appears that 43cms is generally acceptable to SWT, DfT and to many on this forum, then why not build the new IEPs with 3+2 seating. That would save a lot of money and give lots more seats. Bristol to London is only 90 mins, just like Portsmouth to London. We wouldn't want to favour Bristolians over Portsmuthians, that wouldn't be right, fairness to all.

These canny Scots north of the border, they seem to know a bit about trains. All these new Class 380s for Glasgow and Edinburgh commuters are 2+2 seating. Glasgow to Edinburgh just 40 miles and 75 mins via Bathgate, so let's have 2+2 seating. They must be having a good chuckle at the poor old English always seeking to lower passenger standards and comfort as they seek to maintain and raise them.

 

[jon0844]

I refuse to sit in the middle seat and I believe many others are the same. I would rather stand up. If I'm near the window then I have to give up my seat if someone wants to sit in the middle. It isn't physically possible for three average adults to sit in a 3 without excessive squashing.

This is why I think many commuter trains, especially now that more people are travelling, should stick to 2+2 seating. This then gives more room for people to alight, as it's a nightmare trying to get down the aisle when the train is packed - and this just encourages everyone to stand in the vestibules.

I think the DfT has a desire for trains to have more seats, but this doesn't (to me) actually help. If you're needing to add more seats to cope with increased capacity, you're probably going to run longer trains or run them more frequently. More seats = less standing room, so how does this help in the long run?

Now if we could run wider trains, it would be fine. Most of the trains I use in Sweden are 3+2 but the seats are wider along with a wider aisle!

 

[tbtc]

There seems to be a common argument here that any one who travels on a train higher than a Pacer should stop moaning as they are better off that those Pacer travellers. So, in effect, Pacers become the British standard of train travel. Oh dear. Is it a case of "Let's not attempt to raise standards elsewhere, they should be set to the lowest common denominator".

I write this slightly cynically and with tongue in cheek, but that's the point some seek to be suggesting

I have to agree with you there (and I accept that I might have used the "Pacer" argument in the past when others have complained about their perceived "inferior" service)

What confuses me (as a Scot living in Northern England) is why so many lines in the old "Southern" region seem to get be getting stock less suited to their needs (e.g. if there has to be a stand-alone shuttle for Gatwick then the 460s seemed the ideal units, but they are going to shorter distance SWT routes whilst units with narrow doors take over the Gatwick duties?)... is this the classic "robbing Peter to pay Paul" (so beloved of BR)?

 

[Aictos]

If it appears that 43cms is generally acceptable to SWT, DfT and to many on this forum, then why not build the new IEPs with 3+2 seating. That would save a lot of money and give lots more seats. Bristol to London is only 90 mins, just like Portsmouth to London. We wouldn't want to favour Bristolians over Portsmuthians, that wouldn't be right, fairness to all.

Actually, it's 110 minutes between Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads with 85 minutes between Paddington and Bristol Parkway so where does the 90 minute journey come from?

 

[Ivo]

Temple Meads can be done in under 100 (examples: 11:00 and 13:00 Mon-Fri), so allowing for faster electrification and (likely) improved loading times, I could see 90 happening. But that might be one of the tricks with the 20 minutes reduction they have been promoting post-IEP; maybe it means the non-Didcot trains when sped up in relation to the present Didcot stoppers?

Back on thread, does anyone know the exact width of a 450?