Narberth Tunnel

[NSEFAN]

Of course there's no reason why through trains couldn't be retained just by hiring a rake of hired carriages or lengthened GTI HST set, since these services only run on Summer Saturdays. This would be much cheaper than actually fixing the tunnel, but the DfT can boast that they've fixed the problem. Plus, cranks can have a "proper train" to froth about; patronage all the way to Pembroke Dock would actually increase as a result!

 

[Dai Corner]

Of course there's no reason why through trains couldn't be retained just by hiring a rake of hired carriages or lengthened GTI HST set, since these services only run on Summer Saturdays. This would be much cheaper than actually fixing the tunnel, but the DfT can boast that they've fixed the problem. Plus, cranks can have a "proper train" to froth about; patronage all the way to Pembroke Dock would actually increase as a result!

We don't know what will replace 'Gerald', but maybe it could have a trip to the seaside on summer Saturdays? Upmarket tourists could enjoy a cooked breakfast on the way there and four course dinner on the way home and crankworthy traction, different every week to ensure repeat business, could be provided. Wealthy cranks would be double winners.

I doubt if GWR particularly want to run to Pembroke Dock. Its just a historical accident that the old Western Region thought it would be a good idea to run a crowd busting train and that somehow got baked in to the franchise specification.

 

[D6975]

Is the reason everyone thinks a 4 car HST is insufficient because of the pax who would use it Padd-CF-Swan? If so then run it non stop Padd to Carmarthen so only through passengers to West Wales from London will be on it out of Padd. A similar service from Exeter/Bristol could also run non stop Abbey Wood to Carmarthen to eliminate the Newport/Cardiff pax from overcrowding it.
I'm sure there used to be a summer sat West Wales HST years ago that only called at Cardiff between Pad and Carmarthen. I remember seeing it go non stop through Parkway and Newport.

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting thread,especially about the nature of tourist traffic. We (two now aged baby boomers) did the reverse of what many suggested, which was train to Carmarthen, hire car (conveniently next to station) then b an b around Pembroke. A family seeking a bucket and spade holiday would do the reverse for all the reasons quoted plus cost (think of family of 2 plus 2 in rail fares vs one or two tanks of petrol plus a bridge toll).
The railways don't do bucket and spade, except for people without cars (not many of them).

 

[30907]

We don't know what will replace 'Gerald', but maybe it could have a trip to the seaside on summer Saturdays? Upmarket tourists could enjoy a cooked breakfast on the way there and four course dinner on the way home and crankworthy traction, different every week to ensure repeat business, could be provided. Wealthy cranks would be double winners.

I doubt if GWR particularly want to run to Pembroke Dock. Its just a historical accident that the old Western Region thought it would be a good idea to run a crowd busting train and that somehow got baked in to the franchise specification.

I like the Gerald idea!

More seriously, the through Paddington-Tenby/Pembroke service is the successor to the long standing Pembroke Coast Express and there was good reason not to withdraw it at privatisation (the York-Tenby was a recent innovation, using a set in marginal time).

 

[edwin_m]

So far I’ve only heard platform end wibble that they won’t fit - they’re designed to go anywhere a MkIII coach can; hence the extreme taper at the coach ends.

Geometry says that there must be a certain curve radius below which the Mk3 will fit and the 80x won't, despite the narrower end width. However I don't know enough dimensions to be able to work out what radius that would be.

 

[gareth950]

Currently how many trains a day / week / month / year run through from Paddington to Pembroke Dock?
I love to know the BCR of this scheme. Must be in the negative numbers. Subject of an FOI request maybe? (That would probably be rejected)

 

[Chester1]

Currently how many trains a day / week / month / year run through from Paddington to Pembroke Dock?
I love to know the BCR of this scheme. Must be in the negative numbers. Subject of an FOI request maybe? (That would probably be rejected)

One service on summer Saturdays only. The intention must be at least a daily 5 coach service. London to Swansea should be reduced to 2 hours 45 minutes compared with upto 2 hours 21 minutes from Swansea to Pembroke Dock. Without a huge investment to reduce journey time I can't see how it would be viable to have even a early morning - late evening daily service. It would need to be something like Pembroke Dock 05:30, Carmarthen 06:25, Swansea 07:20, Cardiff 08:15, Newport 08:30, Bristol Parkway 08:50 and London 10:00. I will be very interested when the timetable is eventually released!

 

[Dai Corner]

One service on summer Saturdays only. The intention must be at least a daily 5 coach service. London to Swansea should be reduced to 2 hours 45 minutes compared with upto 2 hours 21 minutes from Swansea to Pembroke Dock. Without a huge investment to reduce journey time I can't see how it would be viable to have even a early morning - late evening daily service. It would need to be something like Pembroke Dock 05:30, Carmarthen 06:25, Swansea 07:20, Cardiff 08:15, Newport 08:30, Bristol Parkway 08:50 and London 10:00. I will be very interested when the timetable is eventually released!

The unit would spend 5 hours west of Swansea. That's enough time to do a return trip from Paddington to Cardiff. No guesses which would bring in the most revenue!

 

[30907]

The unit would spend 5 hours west of Swansea. That's enough time to do a return trip from Paddington to Cardiff. No guesses which would bring in the most revenue!

On a Summer Saturday, when there's the odd unit spare, I would have thought the through service/s would do OK, though I admit its 45 years since I last used the service throughout.

 

[Chester1]

The unit would spend 5 hours west of Swansea. That's enough time to do a return trip from Paddington to Cardiff. No guesses which would bring in the most revenue!

I agree but I was trying to think of a timetable that was vaugely decent by serving business day visits to Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Bristol and London. Running early morning and late evening services reduces the waste because a unit will otherwise have not entered service or have finished already. Its pork barrel politics but it is not completely idiotic. I have suggested previously that messing about with two HST GTi sets on Friday and Sunday night to enable 1tpd on Saturday and Sunday without any infrastructure work would be much better value for money.

 

[Dai Corner]

On a Summer Saturday, when there's the odd unit spare, I would have thought the through service/s would do OK, though I admit its 45 years since I last used the service throughout.

I agree but I was trying to think of a timetable that was vaugely decent by serving business day visits to Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Bristol and London. Running early morning and late evening services reduces the waste because a unit will otherwise have not entered service or have finished already. Its pork barrel politics but it is not completely idiotic. I have suggested previously that messing about with two HST GTi sets on Friday and Sunday night to enable 1tpd on Saturday and Sunday without any infrastructure work would be much better value for money.

I take all your points, but would still ask why Tenby deserves these services and significant expenditure to continue providing them while other small seaside resorts apparently don't. When were the last through trains from Paddington to Aberystwyth, Pwhelli, Exmouth, Barnstaple, Falmouth or St Ives? Pork barrel politics indeed!

 

[Chester1]

I take all your points, but would still ask why Tenby deserves these services and significant expenditure to continue providing them while other small seaside resorts apparently don't. When were the last through trains from Paddington to Aberystwyth, Pwhelli, Exmouth, Barnstaple, Falmouth or St Ives? Pork barrel politics indeed!

ATW tried to obtain paths for a daily Aberystwyth-London service but it was rejected on the grounds of revanue abstraction by Virgin. Any service to London would need to be an extension of Birmingham International services to Euston. Pwhelli - London would take at least 7 hours, would have virtually zero through passengers. London to Pembroke Dock must have some financial basis to have survived to 2017.

St Ives and Exmouth are at the end of short branch lines and the junctions are in the wrong direction. I think there is a strong argument for a daily Falmouth to Paddington service with a 10 coach service splitting at Truro. Barnstaple is the only significant settlement on its line while services to Tenby also serve Pembroke and ferry services.

I would support daily services from Llandudno, Bolton, Barrow and Windermere to Euston. Blackpool (also Wrexham and Shrewsbury) to London has been a success. 1tpd puts towns on the map and it is not costly to extend one early morning and one late evening service. Hull trains introduction of a daily Berverly service is another example.

I don't think infrastructure works to allow 800s to reach Pembroke Dock would be worthwhile but if they can fit through without them then its not necessarily a bad idea, neither is using 8 Mark III coaches on summer Saturdays and Sundays and sending to 2 x 5 coach 800s to Devon and Cornwall to componsate. The motivation is clearly political but limited London to Pembroke Dock services are not a terrible idea, there are sufficient intermediate flows on the route for a financial / local regeneration argument.

 

[berneyarms]

One service on summer Saturdays only. The intention must be at least a daily 5 coach service. London to Swansea should be reduced to 2 hours 45 minutes compared with upto 2 hours 21 minutes from Swansea to Pembroke Dock. Without a huge investment to reduce journey time I can't see how it would be viable to have even a early morning - late evening daily service. It would need to be something like Pembroke Dock 05:30, Carmarthen 06:25, Swansea 07:20, Cardiff 08:15, Newport 08:30, Bristol Parkway 08:50 and London 10:00. I will be very interested when the timetable is eventually released!

There are actually two HST services to/from Pembroke Dock on summer Saturdays. Both eastbound go to London, while one of the westbounds starts at Swansea.

 

[Dai Corner]

ATW tried to obtain paths for a daily Aberystwyth-London service but it was rejected on the grounds of revanue abstraction by Virgin. Any service to London would need to be an extension of Birmingham International services to Euston. Pwhelli - London would take at least 7 hours, would have virtually zero through passengers. London to Pembroke Dock must have some financial basis to have survived to 2017.

St Ives and Exmouth are at the end of short branch lines and the junctions are in the wrong direction. I think there is a strong argument for a daily Falmouth to Paddington service with a 10 coach service splitting at Truro. Barnstaple is the only significant settlement on its line while services to Tenby also serve Pembroke and ferry services.

I would support daily services from Llandudno, Bolton, Barrow and Windermere to Euston. Blackpool (also Wrexham and Shrewsbury) to London has been a success. 1tpd puts towns on the map and it is not costly to extend one early morning and one late evening service. Hull trains introduction of a daily Berverly service is another example.

I don't think infrastructure works to allow 800s to reach Pembroke Dock would be worthwhile but if they can fit through without them then its not necessarily a bad idea, neither is using 8 Mark III coaches on summer Saturdays and Sundays and sending to 2 x 5 coach 800s to Devon and Cornwall to componsate. The motivation is clearly political but limited London to Pembroke Dock services are not a terrible idea, there are sufficient intermediate flows on the route for a financial / local regeneration argument.

The ferry is at Pembroke Dock 0046-0245 and 1246-1445 so unfortunately it's not possible to connect with it as well as serve the Pembrokeshire-Swansea/Cardiff/London business or leisure markets.

The shorter branches present a better business case as the expensive trains aren't required for so long. It is more akin to Paddington-Bristol trains being extended to Weston-super-Mare. Junctions facing the wrong way isn't really a problem with MUs; just reverse at St Earth for St Ives. Exmouth's is the wrong way for Waterloo but the right way for Paddington and Barnstaple's the other way round.

 

[Envoy]

Surely, the ‘problem’ with Pembrokeshire is that the rail routes split into three = Pembroke Dock/ Milford Haven & Fishguard. Unfortunately, the county town of Haverfordwest is only on the Milford branch. So, what would serve the populous best as well as tourists? The key is surely Carmarthen as it is west of this town that the 3 Pembrokeshire routes diverge with the first junction being at Whitland. Surely, most people on each of the Pembrokeshire lines would like to have one train per hour - which would mean relatively short trains (sprinters or 2 car 170’s or 175’s) west of Carmarthen. Then they would like a very fast train to get them to/from the east without going into Swansea. I would suggest that such a fast service could be a direct service to/from London using a 5 car Class 800 to join with another unit at Cardiff or a fast train heading to/from Manchester. Such a train could either use the Landore link line or the Swansea District Line - and only stop at Llanelli, Morriston Parkway (M4 J45), Port Talbot, & Cardiff before heading off to Manchester/ London.

Some of the sprinter services from Pembrokeshire could continue to/from Swansea as all stops trains, hence, Swansea retains its direct links with Pembrokeshire whilst with careful scheduling, Carmarthen becomes a major interchange point allowing passengers to switch to from the very fast services to Cardiff and the east. (At the moment, it is virtually impossible for tourists to make day trips from Cardiff to Tenby due to the excessive travelling time by rail. Ideally, an express train would leave Cardiff at 9am to reach Carmarthen in about 1 hour - where passengers could change to sprinters for Pembrokeshire - with possible train splits at Whitland & Clunderwen and the sprinters so configured to match loadings).

I know this post is about the Narberth Tunnel - but what I say is relevant because of the issue of taking Class 800’s through the tunnel and down a very slow branch line. (About time it had new long welded rail. Looks to me like the track has been around since the days of steam).

 

[CardiffKid]

The First Class 800 in passenger service went to Carmarthen yesterday.

Are we any closer on a date for Pembroke Dock or any update on any work that needs to be done?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Of course not as its a political headline

 

[HelixUK]

Summer is here and 2nd of June should see GWR heading down to Pembroke Dock.

Does anyone know if this is confirmed?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47842/2018/06/02/advanced

Any news on the 800's heading down there? I haven't heard about any testing or work on the tunnel

Regards

 

[PHILIPE]

Summer is here and 2nd of June should see GWR heading down to Pembroke Dock.

Does anyone know if this is confirmed?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47842/2018/06/02/advanced

Any news on the 800's heading down there? I haven't heard about any testing or work on the tunnel

Regards

HSTs this year but beyond then not much known. They wouldn't do any work on the tunnel just for a Summer Saturday service.

 

[Envoy]

How can they be so sure that a Class 800 can’t get through the tunnel? Could they not take one slowly into the tunnel with someone walking ahead & see if it comes close to a scrape?

When the HST’s call at the little stations like Narberth & Saundersfoot, they have to go through all the selective door opening. Surely, a 5 coach Class 800 would be easier for operational reasons?

 

[NSEFAN]

How can they be so sure that a Class 800 can’t get through the tunnel? Could they not take one slowly into the tunnel with someone walking ahead & see if it comes close to a scrape?

When the HST’s call at the little stations like Narberth & Saundersfoot, they have to go through all the selective door opening. Surely, a 5 coach Class 800 would be easier for operational reasons?

Presumably there are known dimensions of the tunnel and train, and the alignment of the track through it? HSTs are already known to be tight, so an extra 3m on the IEP vehicles won't help matters. Even if its a tight fit, there needs to a certain amount of extra clearance to allow for slight movement in the track over time etc. Just taking a train though and seeing what happens risks damaging a usable train and doesn't necessarily mean trains of that type will always fit.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Summer is here and 2nd of June should see GWR heading down to Pembroke Dock.

Does anyone know if this is confirmed?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47842/2018/06/02/advanced

Any news on the 800's heading down there? I haven't heard about any testing or work on the tunnel

Regards

Interesting... do I understand right that it's a through service only in the up direction and that heading from London to the Pembroke branch would still require a change at Swansea?

Given it's a summer Saturdays only service, when would it finish? End of August, presumably?

 

[Domh245]

How can they be so sure that a Class 800 can’t get through the tunnel? Could they not take one slowly into the tunnel with someone walking ahead & see if it comes close to a scrape?

As @NSEFAN alludes to, the dimensions of the tunnel will be known (laser scanned), as are the exact dimensions of the train, and then all they have to do is run it through a computer program and see if the outline of the train goes through the outline of the tunnel at any point. If it does go through the outline of the tunnel, you will get scrapes down the side of your shiny new train and Hitachi will be distinctively unimpressed. As I understand it, the computer has said no.

 

[edwin_m]

As @NSEFAN alludes to, the dimensions of the tunnel will be known (laser scanned), as are the exact dimensions of the train, and then all they have to do is run it through a computer program and see if the outline of the train goes through the outline of the tunnel at any point. If it does go through the outline of the tunnel, you will get scrapes down the side of your shiny new train and Hitachi will be distinctively unimpressed. As I understand it, the computer has said no.

Actually, if it's like some PFI contracts, Hitachi might be quite happy when they look up how much they can charge for fixing a scrape.

 

[The_Engineer]

How can they be so sure that a Class 800 can’t get through the tunnel? Could they not take one slowly into the tunnel with someone walking ahead & see if it comes close to a scrape?

When the HST’s call at the little stations like Narberth & Saundersfoot, they have to go through all the selective door opening. Surely, a 5 coach Class 800 would be easier for operational reasons?

Network Rail hold records for all lineside structures - that's how they know what stock will fit down what route. The "Dr Yellow" measurement trains also do loading gauge measurements as well as various track checks as they go along. Load gauge is checked with the blue scanning laser, which frightened people in Oxfordshire when it lit their cloudy sky up!! Structures - particularly old tunnels - do move (sag and bow) and so do get special scrutiny......

 

[Ploughman]

You don't even need to run a measurement train.
A Laser scanning survey can be carried out on foot with a portable set or can be mounted on a Road Rail vehicle.

 

[The_Engineer]

You don't even need to run a measurement train.
A Laser scanning survey can be carried out on foot with a portable set or can be mounted on a Road Rail vehicle.

True - but the train does all lines regularly, and updates the structure records. Unless any detected movement of the structure has been seen over time there's no need to do it more often.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for the responses regarding my query.

Normally, on summer Saturdays, a HST goes from Swansea to Pembroke Dock early. It then operates all the way back east to London. Another HST leaves London bound for Pembroke Dock. It then returns to London in the late afternoon.

 

[JN114]

Have we actually had confirmation they don’t fit through Narberth Tunnel? Or is it just foam and wibble? They manage to cope fine with Ledbury Tunnel - which is so tight that HSTs aren’t allowed through with powercar sliding doors locked out of use as they provide the only means of passenger egress due to how tight the Tunnel is...