Named trains - is there any point?

[xotGD]

The Skipton - KX ought to be called "The Airedale Executive". At least, that's how I refer to it.

 

[DarloRich]

Like the entirety of the GWR branding, they hark back to a golden era. If they give the railway a nice warm fuzzy feeling to the passengers, why not?

do they, really, give anyone ( apart from train fans/nostalgia buffs) a warm fuzzy feeling?

 

[Clansman]

Perhaps it was down to the strength of the titles?

"The Highland Chieftain" is what passengers, at least those who live north of Edinburgh, generally call the service.

When I've had rail travel vouchers, I've gone into Oxford station and asked to book journey on "The 'Chieftain", and they've known immediately that I'm going for the midday from Kings Cross - although they've had to ask for my final destination.

Really?

Most people I know refer to all Aberdeen/Inverness LNER services simply as "The HST".

 

[Ianno87]

If a train does something genuinely unique, there is a sort of point in the name as a way of an operator branding/emphasing its presence in a particular area that may otherwise go less noticed or not think the operator values the service.

The Highland Chieftain is a great example of this - being the sole daily direct daytime train between the highlands and anywhere in England, and hugely politically important.

Where named trains are essentially just standard hourly services that have some stops removed (e.g. The Anglian, Flying Scotsman, GWR to Cornwall) - it's all a bit pointless. People plan their journeys to suit their meeting, or get the best fare.

 

[dk1]

Absolutely, as I mentioned in the thread regarding your new stock, its a damn shame that the general onboard experience has decline so much in recent years on the GEML.
I miss the days of the excellent Anglia restaurants that operated on so many services, serving up quality fare at very reasonable prices for rail catering.

Ironically back in those days the Anglian was only 3rd in line for priority in the restaurant stakes if we where short of a kitchen/RFM cars. The order to cover of the five dining trains was 0655 'Broadsman', 0600, 0755 'Anglian', 0800 & finally 0530. The Anglian eventually lost the restaurant only to end up formed of two class 170s originating in Great Yarmouth & Lowestoft combining at Ipswich. It did however have staffed buffet counters in both portions.

 

[Condor7]

Is the West Riding Ltd really a "limited" train? That used to mean no standing passengers. (My 1963 timetable simply has it as "The West Riding" although you could reserve a seat for the princely sum of two shillings - rather more than the price of a pint back then)

I always thought ‘Limited’ after a name referred to it being limited stops, i.e. faster than the normal expresses on that route, as is the case with The West Riding Ltd. Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, then non stop to Kings Cross.

 

[LAX54]

Love a good blast through Colchester at 90 but not so keen on the then double yellows round the bend to Chitts Hill

I would have thought more chances of a DY on the down with the 1700 ? we only get 90 seconds between the 'call' and you passing a SY and approaching the red. we also now have S-ARS up and running, well sort of, still has teething problems, and that system tends to think differently to Signalmen !

 

[Indigo Soup]

That's an interesting question - personally, I am very much in favour of hourly regular-interval clockface-pattern connectional timetables (or if you like speaking German, "Taktfahrplaene" describes it in one word), and as such no train in the timetable should stand out for naming, and in my book the Gerald wouldn't exist at all.

I'm a Taktfahrplan enthusiast, in principle at least, but I'd still envisage such a timetable having enough extra paths to allow a few 'prima donna' services to be run outside the regular intervals. These would naturally be high profile named trains like the Flying Scotsman that were faster, higher quality or offered a service not otherwise provided.

Most people I know refer to all Aberdeen/Inverness LNER services simply as "The HST".

In the Inverness area, it's very definitely The Highland Chieftain, and there is a lot of pride attached to having it. It has that odd quality where you can hear the capital letters, even on 'The'. It's a clear case of when a train justifies its name.

 

[DarloRich]

I think names have a value for a premium express service - they lose any cachet when the 1030 and 1100 departures form Kings Cross to Newcastle have exactly the same running time and service. You can call one a special name all you like but it is meaningless.

The other option is to go for slight of hand and pretend the named trains have some prestigious connotations when they don't. Virgin could pull that off no problem.

 

[Iskra]

The Skipton - KX ought to be called "The Airedale Executive". At least, that's how I refer to it.

'The London Train' to most people in Skipton I think.

I like named trains, but as many other posters have said, they do need to be special to justify it. Whether that's the express nature of the service, an enhanced offering (catering or rolling stock) or being the only direct train of the day to a significant place.

The Highland Chieftain, The West Riding Limited and The Northern Lights fit into this category. As an enthusiast I've made a special effort to do these services, several times now. I wish LNER would name the Leeds-Aberdeen services as these are unique in being the only guaranteed decent train Northbound out of Leeds all day!

The Premier Service is another good one. Are the sleepers officially named?

There does seem to be a buzz about travelling on such services.

I'm not a fan of just naming ordinary services to pretend they are special when they aren't; GWR, EMT and GC seem to do this. You could argue it is good marketing or tradition, but it doesn't work for me.

I've been given two x free return first class tickets to anywhere on the LNER network- I'll definitely be using them on one of the named trains rather than one of the mundane services, ideally before HST's get withdrawn.

 

[Ianno87]

I unofficially named the pre-May Thameslink preview service between Brighton and Cambridge as 'The Sussex Fenman'.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is very nice:

 

[NoOnesFool]

The GWR timetable has several named trains listed. Last week, I travelled on ‘The Red Dragon’ and the name was not mentioned in announcements at stations or on board the train. Neither did it appear on screens on board or at station. Historically, the named trains tended to be the faster services on any particular route. Even the menus in restaurant cars would have the ‘name’ of the train along with suitable logos. What is the situation with other operators? Do you think that named trains have any purpose in today’s world or should these historic names be kept and promoted?

Named trains are useful for promoting services with enhanced catering i.e. The Sheffield Continental, which offers a full breakfast service. A catchy name will stay in the customer's mind more than a departure time.

 

[MDB1images]

The Highland Chieftain (or Chieftain) is the one that stands out as known (and referred thus)by customers and staff(as well as enthusiasts)but it's a unique service in the Highlands.

I'll admit to liking named trains and certainly like the idea however they need to be different than the norm to be of value.
For example I always liked the Royal Scot on the West Coast but it was unique as it was a fast train that didn't stop at many places, unless Virgin bring in (or have!)a Euston-Preston-Carlisle-Glasgow that shaved time off the other services and is unique I think it wouldn't be worth doing.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... I wish LNER would name the Leeds-Aberdeen services as these are unique in being the only guaranteed decent train Northbound out of Leeds all day! ..

In case you didn't know, it used to be called "The North Briton" - so they could always bring that back.
Until about 1963, the down service (at least) was usually hauled by an exotically named Neville Hill A3 like "Shotover" or "Book Law" (what can Book Law mean?)

EDIT: Hmmm. Wikipedia says The North Briton was Leeds - Glasgow. I thought it was to Aberdeen. Apols for introducing errors.

It was also used to trial the pre-production HST set.

So it does have 'a history'.

 

[Condor7]

The Premier Service is another good one. Are the sleepers officially named?

The Night Riviera Paddington to Penzance is officially named, but what is referred to as the Caledonian Euston to Scotland is unofficial.

 

[pt_mad]

I buy into the romance of naming some of the services. Like the Royal Duchy and such like. Especially when they serve rural areas of outstanding beauty like Cornwall and the Highlands.

I can also see the point in naming any train which does Pullman dining. I could also see the point in naming some evening peak expresses out of Euston which serve a decent hot food offering.

Aside from that, perhaps naming the trains themselves, with name plates, is more sensible than naming the working. It's a bit of fun, can serve a commercial purpose/marketing and could generate some interest

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Several post have already mentioned Taktfahrpläne and I'd like to add that there's another way to have "named" trains in this kind of system. In North Rhine-Westphalia, every RB and RE service has a name, i.e. not just one train but all of them combined. It kind of depends on the operator if the name is advertised or not. For example, the train I'm in right now is the Ruhr-Lenne-Bahn and the announcements also acknowledge this, while other names are rarely used. There are also other named services in other states, the RE Nuremburg-Munich is known as the München-Nürnberg-Express (duh) etc.

 

[Iskra]

In case you didn't know, it used to be called "The North Briton" - so they could always bring that back.
Until about 1963, the down service (at least) was usually hauled by an exotically named Neville Hill A3 like "Shotover" or "Book Law" (what can Book Law mean?)

EDIT: Hmmm. Wikipedia says The North Briton was Leeds - Glasgow. I thought it was to Aberdeen. Apols for introducing errors.

It was also used to trial the pre-production HST set.

So it does have 'a history'.

I was looking through the wikipedia named trains page and although perhaps not historically accurate The North Briton did stand out as the best name for the current Leeds-Aberdeen service if it could be named. Good to know some of the history of the service so thanks for sharing.

 

[Calthrop]

In case you didn't know, it used to be called "The North Briton" - so they could always bring that back.
Until about 1963, the down service (at least) was usually hauled by an exotically named Neville Hill A3 like "Shotover" or "Book Law" (what can Book Law mean?)

(My bolding) -- I suspect you are not earnestly seeking to know what the name means; just enjoying the mild mystery-and-oddity pleasure. However -- obviously with time on my hands -- I tried Googling. It turns out that Book Law was, like many LNER Pacifics, named after a racehorse (whence numerous such splendidly random-seeming loco names). I learn that the equine Book Law was a mare with an impressive racing career in the late 1920s. The name can be considered, likely, the outcome of punning, involving the names of the horse's parents -- often done on the horse-racing / breeding scene. Her father was Buchan (author of much-loved books?) and her mother Popingaol (something which "the Law" can do to you?).

 

[olympus]

I travelled Paddington to Hereford a few evenings ago on The Cathedrals Express. With 15 stops en route it hardly falls into the category of an express.

There was a time when The Cathedrals Express only stopped at cathedral cities. Its stopping pattern is now similar to most Cotswold Line trains.

One named train with a unique route is the Pembroke Coast Express; one train a day on Summer Saturdays direct from Paddington to Pembroke Dock (becoming a stopping service from Carmarthen).

 

[D6975]

In case you didn't know, it used to be called "The North Briton" - so they could always bring that back.
Until about 1963, the down service (at least) was usually hauled by an exotically named Neville Hill A3 like "Shotover" or "Book Law" (what can Book Law mean?)

EDIT: Hmmm. Wikipedia says The North Briton was Leeds - Glasgow. I thought it was to Aberdeen. Apols for introducing errors.

Don't believe all you see in Wikipedia....
The North Briton ran at various times to both Glasgow and Dundee to my knowledge and there may have been other final destinations too.

 

[Condor7]

Don't believe all you see in Wikipedia....
The North Briton ran at various times to both Glasgow and Dundee to my knowledge and there may have been other final destinations too.

Although now a few years old The Railway Magazine’s The Encyclopaedia of Titled Trains https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1906167826/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_b585BbBP3V4ZP still remains the most up to date authority on this subject, with detailed history of all named/titled trains in UK history, plus those named trains current at the time of publication (and still largely accurate) are clearly shown.

 

[jimm]

I travelled Paddington to Hereford a few evenings ago on The Cathedrals Express. With 15 stops en route it hardly falls into the category of an express.

There was a time when The Cathedrals Express only stopped at cathedral cities. Its stopping pattern is now similar to most Cotswold Line trains.

olympus, your statement is simply not true. In both directions from the time the service got the name in 1957, the Cathedrals Express was non-stop between Paddington and Oxford, then called at Moreton-in-Marsh and Evesham, while from Worcester onwards, the Hereford portion called at the same stations as Paddington-Hereford services today.

When there was a Kidderminster portion, this called at Droitwich Spa both ways and the down service would also call to set down passengers at Fernhill Heath (by request, station is now closed) and Hartlebury.

So nine intermediate stops between London and Hereford at a time when Reading was not the key interchange station and commuter and business centre it is today and long-distance commuting to London from stations beyond Oxford, such as Hanborough and Charlbury, did not exist.

Kingham and Charlbury calls were added in the mid-1960s, making it 11 intermediate stops by this train more than 50 years ago - and in the 1965 timetable several other services had faster timings between Paddington and Hereford than the named train.

The name was always largely a marketing exercise to highlight the key 'business' trains in each direction on the route.

 

[olympus]

olympus, your statement is simply not true. In both directions from the time the service got the name in 1957, the Cathedrals Express was non-stop between Paddington and Oxford, then called at Moreton-in-Marsh and Evesham, while from Worcester onwards, the Hereford portion called at the same stations as Paddington-Hereford services today.

You are absolutely right and a web search would have told me that. Apologies to anyone I've misled.

Perhaps that shows how putting a name on a train does have an impact on travellers.

 

[70014IronDuke]

(My bolding) -- I suspect you are not earnestly seeking to know what the name means; just enjoying the mild mystery-and-oddity pleasure.

Indeed. (As one does with 95% of the A3s )

However -- obviously with time on my hands -- I tried Googling. It turns out that Book Law was, like many LNER Pacifics, named after a racehorse (whence numerous such splendidly random-seeming loco names). I learn that the equine Book Law was a mare with an impressive racing career in the late 1920s. The name can be considered, likely, the outcome of punning, involving the names of the horse's parents -- often done on the horse-racing / breeding scene. Her father was Buchan (author of much-loved books?) and her mother Popingaol (something which "the Law" can do to you?).

He he he. I bet the owners had a little laugh while rubbin their hands every time she won a race!

I wouldn't want to bet more than 10 pence on it, but I know I saw Book Law once, and I think it was on The North Briton at Framwellgate Moor, north of Durham, one afternoon in the summer of 62 or 63.

EDIT: INcidentally, while so named in the 1930s there may have been a fair few who knew where the A3 names originated - one does wonder what parents said to little Johnny when taking the train on the GN by the 50s when he asked: Daddy, who/what was Galtee Moore, Pretty Polly, St Frusquin, Manna, Knight of Thistle ..... etc etc

 

[70014IronDuke]

Don't believe all you see in Wikipedia....

I don't - but at the same time, I didn't want to be the perpetrator of falsehood.

 

[Rhydgaled]

One named train with a unique route is the Pembroke Coast Express; one train a day on Summer Saturdays direct from Paddington to Pembroke Dock (becoming a stopping service from Carmarthen).

Not quite correct. It isn't a unique route as such because there is also a second Pembroke Dock to London Paddington service (both are Summer Saturdays only). The second one (14:55 off Pembroke Dock if I recall correctly) is nameless and is a stopping service, calling at every station on route until it reaches Llanelli (I can't remember if it also calls at Gowerton, which would make it all stations to Swansea). The 'Pembroke Coast Express' however lives up to its name, it is the ONLY train in the whole week that ommits calls at Narberth, Kilgetty, Penally and Lamphey (some or all of which are normally request stops).