Named trains - is there any point?

[Condor7]

Related thread here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-and-other-toc-named-trains.162710/

This was one of my posts from the above thread which I still stand by..........”like the original poster of this thread I have always liked the idea and the romance of named trains, but some namings do seem pointless. To me the tradition of naming a train was because that particular train stood out from the others in some way. Pullman dining as you mention or like The Flying Scotsman a very limited stop train. I would prefer it if there were fewer named trains but the ones that were named where more pronounced in their difference and then advertised more obviously by the toc’s”.

 

[Silver Cobra]

An interesting one for me came up when travelling to Skegness on the Summer HST service back in July. Approaching Skegness, as the train guard was making his final announcements for our arrival, he closed the announcements off by saying "Thank you for travelling on the Jolly Fisherman". I didn't know that this service had a name, but the Jolly Fisherman does make sense considering the character is synonymous with Skegness.

They still use the Flying Scotsman, Highland Chieftain and Northern Lights titles.

According to the most recent LNER timetable, they also use West Riding Limited for their limited-stop 0652 Leeds-London service (calls at Wakefield Westgate only before running non-stop to Kings Cross). I also remember seeing the Hull service being referred to as the 'Hull Executive' on the departure screens at Peterborough back when it was VTEC, but seeing as this name is not mentioned in the timetable, I can only guess that the name has been dropped.

 

[underbank]

For a train to be worth naming, it needs to be special/different. There's really no point in naming a train that does the same journey, using the same rolling stock, as the ones before and after it. Whether the difference is a different dining menu, or different rolling stock, or a different route, or non-stop doesn't really matter, but it really does need to be different.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They used to - Virgin got rid of them in the early days of the West Coast and Cross Country franchises.

I always wondered why they didn't do the same with the East Coast.

I remember when the Derby train had to wait at Crewe if The Clansman was late!

 

[Calthrop]

That`s your opinion of course and you`re probably right. Most people probably don`t care. I don`t think it`s necessarily about steam either. I would be more at home with either diesel or electric. I always think it just adds an air of specialty about train travel which I enjoy. A bit quaint perhaps but not necessarily outdated.

Largely concurring -- though I suspect that it's a thing which does holds a degree of appeal for some "real people" (as opposed to railway enthusiasts). Numerous long-distance trains (for normal folk to travel on them from A to B) are or have been in very many parts of the world, named. I'd doubt whether railway undertakings would engage in this practice if the normal travelling public were 100% apathetic toward it.

 

[xotGD]

WCRC know that having named trains evokes something in their prospective passengers and gets more bums on seats. You travel on "The Scarborough Spa Express" not just on a day excursion to Scarbados. One thing they do to add to this is put a headboard on the front of the train - seeing a 91 roll in to Leeds with a "West Riding Limited" headboard on the front would give a bit more status to this 'special' service.

 

[Redonian]

I travelled Paddington to Hereford a few evenings ago on The Cathedrals Express. With 15 stops en route it hardly falls into the category of an express.

 

[Bedpan]

?????? Which servcies are they ????????

(Relates to the Dalstons and the Bulks ). I was wondering the same thing. Nothing on Google.

 

[Bedpan]

Re named trains, nobody has mentioned The Gerald of Wales (Cardiff - Holyhead), which does sound a special service worthy of having a name.

 

[xotGD]

I travelled Paddington to Hereford a few evenings ago on The Cathedrals Express. With 15 stops en route it hardly falls into the category of an express.

I didn't realise that there were so many cathedrals between Padd and Hereford!

 

[vlad]

Perhaps it was down to the strength of the titles?

Is the Flying Scotsman any greater than the Royal Scot? This'll probably boil down to LNER/LMS rivalry....

 

[dk1]

Really annoys me that NXEA went to the trouble of relaunching The East Anglian name on the 07:40up/17:00dn (SX) on the Norwich/London route yet couldn't be arsed to announce it on train or station or put it on screens yet go over the top by naming a class 90 loco & having it shown in timetables. Why even bother if it's going to be half hearted? Several of my on train colleagues do make the effort but only because they care.

 

[Butts]

I think TOC's are missing a wonderful marketing opporunity with some of these named services - particularly The Highland Chieftian.

I'm not suggesting a Jacobite WHR level, but something better than the current offering particularly in 1st Class.

How much imagination does it take to have a "Full Highland Breakfast" - add on Haggis, Square Sausage etc...

Venison on the Evening Meal washed down with Malt not Blended Whisky ?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think TOC's are missing a wonderful marketing opporunity with some of these named services - particularly The Highland Chieftian.

I'm not suggesting a Jacobite WHR level, but something better than the current offering particularly in 1st Class.

How much imagination does it take to have a "Full Highland Breakfast" - add on Haggis, Square Sausage etc...

Venison on the Evening Meal washed down with Malt not Blended Whisky ?

But would enough people really pay a premium for it?
If it’s not anything different, it’s not really worth naming it. If you’re going to do something different, it’s most likely going to come at a premium.

 

[Butts]

But would enough people really pay a premium for it?
If it’s not anything different, it’s not really worth naming it. If you’re going to do something different, it’s most likely going to come at a premium.

Unfortunately you are probably correct.

I can't see a "Northern Pullman" anytime soon.

Must confess I am a bit of a hypocrite as given the choice I would always fly between London and Inverness - however between Edinburgh and Inverness I would happily quaff a few complimentary Glenmorangie's.

 

[co-tr-paul]

I have tried not to post on this thread but I fear I must !! Down here everyone knows the first service from PZ is " the Hind " and of course everyonr knows the " Night Riviera " . GWR publish their named services on their timetables and mentioned on their C.I.S. and the on - train destination labels.
Its just a shame that modern designed locomotion can't incorporate a headboard..... .

 

[Harbornite]

Funnily enough, today was the first day that I heard named trains being announced at a station, those being the Bristolian, the Golden Hind, the Armada, the Cathedrals Express and the Welshman. They're nice to have but ultimately irrelevant in this era of clockface high speed services.

 

[FGW_DID]

GWR has a list of theirs on their website:

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/meet-our-trains

 

[Envoy]

Mention has been made of ‘Gerald of Wales’ as a named train that operates on this route:> Holyhead > Bangor > Llandudno Junction > Chester > Wrexham > Shrewsbury > Newport > Cardiff. You may be wondering why it has such a name? Here is the answer from an article that appeared in The Guardian:>

The question brings me to the reality of what is one of the most arcane train services in the UK. Named Gerald of Wales (Y Gerallt Gymro in Welsh) after a medieval archdeacon who travelled all round the country, the Arriva Trains Wales service has also been dubbed the “political train” by those who have raised an eyebrow at the £1.7m subsidy it receives.

You can read about it here:>
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...iva-restaurant-dining-car-holyhead-to-cardiff

 

[LAX54]

Really annoys me that NXEA went to the trouble of relaunching The East Anglian name on the 07:40up/17:00dn (SX) on the Norwich/London route yet couldn't be arsed to announce it on train or station or put it on screens yet go over the top by naming a class 90 loco & having it shown in timetables. Why even bother if it's going to be half hearted? Several of my on train colleagues do make the effort but only because they care.

We still call it THE ANGLIAN, (and try to give it a run) or if / when we have disruption, mainly in evenings tends to be THE ANGRY ANNE ! as we feel it maybe full of disgruntled passengers ! and then there is THE BROADSMAN which I think is now more an unofficial name.

 

[dk1]

We still call it THE ANGLIAN, (and try to give it a run) or if / when we have disruption, mainly in evenings tends to be THE ANGRY ANNE ! as we feel it maybe full of disgruntled passengers ! and then there is THE BROADSMAN which I think is now more an unofficial name.

Love a good blast through Colchester at 90 but not so keen on the then double yellows round the bend to Chitts Hill

 

[cuccir]

We still call it THE ANGLIAN, (and try to give it a run) or if / when we have disruption,

I think that this is a key potential benefit of names, specifically, for eitherexpress or once a day services that connect London to areas which do not otherwise have a direct service. It's reasonable that someone travelling from (say) Pitlochry might recongise the name 'the Chieftain' more quickly than 'the 07:55 from Inverness'.

 

[Condor7]

According to the most recent LNER timetable, they also use West Riding Limited for their limited-stop 0652 Leeds-London service (calls at Wakefield Westgate only before running non-stop to Kings Cross). I also remember seeing the Hull service being referred to as the 'Hull Executive' on the departure screens at Peterborough back when it was VTEC, but seeing as this name is not mentioned in the timetable, I can only guess that the name has been dropped.

A bit picky I know but for the record The West Riding Ltd is Bradford Forster Square (via Leeds) to Kings Cross.

The Hull Executive still runs, it is in the National Rail timetable, 07.00 from Hull.

 

[Please Explain]

Really annoys me that NXEA went to the trouble of relaunching The East Anglian name on the 07:40up/17:00dn (SX) on the Norwich/London route yet couldn't be arsed to announce it on train or station or put it on screens yet go over the top by naming a class 90 loco & having it shown in timetables. Why even bother if it's going to be half hearted? Several of my on train colleagues do make the effort but only because they care.

Absolutely, as I mentioned in the thread regarding your new stock, its a damn shame that the general onboard experience has decline so much in recent years on the GEML.
I miss the days of the excellent Anglia restaurants that operated on so many services, serving up quality fare at very reasonable prices for rail catering.

Regarding the named services though, maybe I'm old fashioned but I have always quite liked them, adds a bit of character and tradition to the otherwise everyday mundanities.
Such things are all but dead now on NMBS/SNCB, CFL and SNCF since the end of the two Brussel-Basel EuroCity "Iris" et "Vauban" train pairs two years ago.
These were the last bastions of "classic international" joint operation named trains in France that had long became a dying breed since the gradual introduction of the TGV and other anonymous high speed services over the years.
But go east over the Rhein and you will find named trains are alive and well on DB. They even have
quite a few named ICE high-speed train pairs as well as the named IC's and EC's. Go even further east into the lands of CD/ZSSK, MAV and the PKP etc and you will find many, many more named train pairs.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

There used to be a "Bradford Executive" which used the illegally closed Wortley curve to avoid Leeds. But you needed a stash of money to travel beyond Wakefield on it as it was a early morning peak-time service.

The Cornishman and the Devonian also ran from Bradford.

 

[krus_aragon]

Mention has been made of ‘Gerald of Wales’ as a named train that operates on this route:> Holyhead > Bangor > Llandudno Junction > Chester > Wrexham > Shrewsbury > Newport > Cardiff. You may be wondering why it has such a name? Here is the answer from an article that appeared in The Guardian:>

You can read about it here:>
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...iva-restaurant-dining-car-holyhead-to-cardiff

That name (and a headboard) was frequently used at the service's inception, but Arriva generally made no ongoing reference to the name, and latterly called it the Premier Express (or similar) in reference to their Premier Service onboard. I don't recall seeing the the name in a timetable or on a departure board after the initial launch.

With the new franchise soon increasing the loco-hauled/first class fleet and upping the service to three each way per day, would the name apply to the service as a whole, or some paricular working?

 

[PeterC]

A bit picky I know but for the record The West Riding Ltd is Bradford Forster Square (via Leeds) to Kings Cross.

The Hull Executive still runs, it is in the National Rail timetable, 07.00 from Hull.

Is the West Riding Ltd really a "limited" train? That used to mean no standing passengers. (My 1963 timetable simply has it as "The West Riding" although you could reserve a seat for the princely sum of two shillings - rather more than the price of a pint back then)

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the new franchise soon increasing the loco-hauled/first class fleet and upping the service to three each way per day, would the name apply to the service as a whole, or some paricular working?

That's an interesting question - personally, I am very much in favour of hourly regular-interval clockface-pattern connectional timetables (or if you like speaking German, "Taktfahrplaene" describes it in one word), and as such no train in the timetable should stand out for naming, and in my book the Gerald wouldn't exist at all. But there is a nice olde-worlde charm to naming particular trains in a regular interval timetable even if the train is the same as the one an hour earlier and the one an hour later. For instance I recall seeing the 1813 off Euston with "The Master Cobbler" on the displays (a guard must have put it up for a laugh) - and thinking actually naming it would be a really nice touch, even if it is in fact little different to the 1713 or 1913. Sometimes there's another reason, like you might name the Euston-Holyhead that happens to connect to a ferry "The Irish Mail" or somesuch, but it'd still be a normal train.

Actually LNR - there are a couple of peak time trains that start at Bletchley - how about "The Codebreaker" and "The Bletchleyite"?

DB have named trains within a Taktfahrplan for years, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funnily enough, today was the first day that I heard named trains being announced at a station, those being the Bristolian, the Golden Hind, the Armada, the Cathedrals Express and the Welshman. They're nice to have but ultimately irrelevant in this era of clockface high speed services.

Like the entirety of the GWR branding, they hark back to a golden era. If they give the railway a nice warm fuzzy feeling to the passengers, why not? It's not like it's loads of effort keying it into the PIS.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The only point of having named trains is if they are used for marketing. Otherwise they are totally pointless but harmless.

Personally, I thought GNER’s ‘Route of the Flying Scotsman’ was very clever as it used a name instantly recognisable to most people, even if it is the locomotive they have heard of rather than the train, and associated all their services with that ‘brand’.