Name and address

[WSW]

Oh but we are, we are talking about authorised persons and a police constable is defined as just such a person.

I shall re-post what AlexS posted above and highlight the relevant part.



Now I have clarified I shall ask the question again in a different way; Would you be unwilling to provide your details on request to a someone dressed as an authorised person and who presents what looks like official identification?

No - we are not talking about police officers at all - we are specifically talking about people on trains/stations who are somehow expected to be assumed to be "authorised".

In answer to your question - yes if I was satisfied that person was indeed "authorised" to demand it. If I had any doubt, no, I would not. And I was hoping someone on this forum would help clear that doubt.

Who on the railway is "authorised" to take your name and address?

How would I know someone is, as you put it, "dressed as an authorised person" and how would a non-authorised person be dressed?

What marks out an ID card/badge which belongs to an "authorised" person from that worn/carried by a non-authorised person?

Fairly simple questions. Can I have some simple answers?

And is there anyone who can tell me if it is make absolutely clear that the required address must be that on the "electoral roll". You see, your address at the time could easily be different from that on the electoral roll...

Steve

 

[EM2]

Byelaw 24, section 3

(3) Identification of authorised persons
An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

And Byelaw 25

25. Interpretation
(1) Definitions
In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:
“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

 

[island]

And is there anyone who can tell me if it is make absolutely clear that the required address must be that on the "electoral roll". You see, your address at the time could easily be different from that on the electoral roll...

Steve

I have already said that there is no such requirement; however, giving an address which does not match the electoral roll may give cause for suspicion or further questioning.

 

[sheff1]

There have been a number of threads on here where people have not breached any byelaws but have still been asked for their details.

The threshold is not that the person has breached the byelaws, but rather that an authorised person has reasonable belief that they have done so

Quite. I was replying to a post which suggested otherwise.

A private individual may use their home address, or any address to which they have legitimate access, in order to receive items posted to them. There is no requirement as such for this to be the address where they reside, although obviously it must not be used for fraudulent purposes.

Thanks for this clarification. All this talk of 'registered' addresses reminded me of the time I had three valid adresses, the most appropriate of which I would quote depending on the circumstances ..... never needed to quote one to an 'authorised person' though

 

[reb0118]

What marks out an ID card/badge which belongs to an "authorised" person from that worn/carried by a non-authorised person?

Fairly simple questions. Can I have some simple answers?

Does this help? I have blacked out any identifying TOC & personal identification. These would obviously be visible on any I.D. card shown.

 

[michael769]

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to ID here.

I would suggest that when on a railway, a person in a railway uniform which an official looking ID can be quite safely assumed to be a railway employee. At the end of the day everyone knows that railway employees work on the railway and so encountering a railway employee should come as no surprise.

It is not the same as someone turning up at your front door unannounced and flashing something that purports to be a water board ID. They could indeed be anyone - on the other hand if the water board had told you they were coming your would be expecting them and that would give you confidence they were genuine.

How may people here have seen a police warrant card? Do you think the police would care if you told them you had never seen one and so did not believe that they were a copper? You'd believe them after an hour in a cell!

reb0118 I hope there is a photo on the other side of that card!

 

[jon0844]

Wouldn't all ID cards have a phone number and reference number, so those who are paranoid could call up to check? And, as I said before, if you suspect the card is fake then call the published customer service number or use a help point to verify that way (or confirm the phone number is correct).

I don't believe not being sure about the authenticity of an ID card justifies refusing to give a name and address, it just means you taking a LOT longer to get on with your life as you faff around. And if you feel that's okay (as in thinking you're wasting their time instead of your own), that's your lookout.

I also agree that on a train, it's less likely that someone in full uniform and kit is going to be a fake - whereas you can't be so sure if someone arrives at your door unannounced and without an appointment.

 

[WSW]

I have already said that there is no such requirement; however, giving an address which does not match the electoral roll may give cause for suspicion or further questioning.

Then, to save everyone's time and money, the TOCs should make it quite clear they require the address on the electoral register. Do they?

Steve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to ID here.

I would suggest that when on a railway, a person in a railway uniform which an official looking ID can be quite safely assumed to be a railway employee. At the end of the day everyone knows that railway employees work on the railway and so encountering a railway employee should come as no surprise.

Really? Does that mean anyone in a railway uniform with an ID? All grades? That someone could be me! And I have no authority whatsoever. Just asking.

Steve

 

[Flamingo]

Then, to save everyone's time and money, the TOCs should make it quite clear they require the address on the electoral register. Do they?

Steve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Really? Does that mean anyone in a railway uniform with an ID? All grades? That someone could be me! And I have no authority whatsoever. Just asking.

Steve

Well, as you seem to know your rights, try this experiment. Try to exit the station barriers at a mainline station, refuse to show a ticket, refuse to give your name and address to the RPI that is called as you do not believe they have any authority to ask for it, and then let us know what happens.

 

[barrykas]

As for recognising an ID, wouldn't most ID badges (as against the 'warrant cards' RPIs also carry) have an employee number and phone number for verification purposes.

Depends on the TOC. As a bare minimum, the ID for an "Authorised Collector" should have their badge number (which won't necessarily correspond to their employee number) and which TOC(s) they're authorised to issue PFs for. At my TOC, we also have a photo and their name. No phone number to enable the public to verify that it's valid though, which kind of makes sense really.

I mean, if I was to present you a card with "To verify call 07000 123 456" on it, would you ring that number or the well advertised "0845 <blah>" to check through Customer Services?

 

[jon0844]

If I thought the card was fake, I'd seek to find a number myself for the TOC and ask to be put through to someone who could verify the details - perhaps giving a description of the employee. I'd expect the member of staff to accept this, even if they also thought I was being a PITA.

If I was merely questioning their authority, I'd maybe call the number and ask if that person could do what they claimed to be able to do.

Personally, I'd find it very unlikely that I'd ever question a uniformed member of staff on the railway compared to someone approaching me in my home. I'd also say that any 'fake' member of staff would be more likely to want to dish out some fake penalty fare and pocket the cash than take my name and address (without other useful info like DOB) for some sort of identity fraud scam.

There was a thread on here about someone on a train that was clearly not an employee, and we've probably all seen people at stations in some quite-obviously-not-official-uniform asking for tickets, to hopefully then re-sell (primarily travelcards). If you asked them for ID, chances are they wouldn't have even bothered, especially as they'd really be in trouble if caught with fake ID!

 

[reb0118]

reb0118 I hope there is a photo on the other side of that card!

Yes, but I use it to frighten animals & small children!

 

[island]

Why is this thread still running?

 

[W230]

Why is this thread still running?

Haha! I was just reading it, wondering the same.

 

[LesS]

In many respects this thread has gone too far concerning Railway Officer IDs.
There are questions I have been asking myself regularly without answers.

When visiting the UK and asked for an address it would normally be the hotel I was then staying at. From time to time I have had mail directed to me at hotels where I was booked to stay. I certainly am not on any UK electoral roll.
Then comes the interesting bit. I would be unable to produce any document to verify my identity. Driving licence etc would be at my residence outside of the UK and my passport secured in my hotel. This is not a hypothetical situation as I have previously found myself in this situation on a visit to Singapore.

 

[samxool]

my question is, how easy is it to get away with giving a fake name and address.
I ask this not because i dodge fares ( i don't), but because I've just posted a thread about Checky Watch where people quite openly state they never pay fares on the newcastle metro, and when caught, claim they give out a fake name and address and as a result have also never had to even pay a penalty fare. Many people seem to state this, so I ask, when you give a name and address to a ticket inspector, what happens next?
Do they check it, or just assume you are telling the truth?

 

[Crossover]

my question is, how easy is it to get away with giving a fake name and address.
I ask this not because i dodge fares ( i don't), but because I've just posted a thread about Checky Watch where people quite openly state they never pay fares on the newcastle metro, and when caught, claim they give out a fake name and address and as a result have also never had to even pay a penalty fare. Many people seem to state this, so I ask, when you give a name and address to a ticket inspector, what happens next?
Do they check it, or just assume you are telling the truth?

My feeling is if they have any doubt, they would check it out (you often see it on the TV shows where they will ask for a DOB, then ask the offender how old they are (or vice versa) and see whether the two add up.)

Either way, if you were found to be giving incorrect details, and regularly, you'd have the book thrown at you

 

[route:oxford]

If you have any doubt whatsoever about the authenticity of official identification presented to you in any circumstances...

The golden rule is to pause, explain to the person what you are about to do and why you are doing it.

Use your smart phone to identify the alleged head-office of the relevant person or use a directory enquiry service. Call them and get reassurance that the person is genuine. If they cannot do that within a reasonable timescale, you should close the call and close the interaction. Your mobile phone records will evidence that you made a reasonable attempt to verify the ID to your satisfaction.

I would also refuse to give details without being supplied with details of their data use policy.

From the ICO website...

When organisations collect your information, they should usually be open about why they are collected it, only use it in a reasonable way that you would expect, and shouldn't use it in way that is unfair to you. When your data is collected you should be given a fair processing notice or privacy notice that tells you what will be done with your data and why, unless it's already obvious who is collected your details and what they are going to be used for.

Something similar happened to me at my front door a couple of years back.

An individual, who claimed to be from the City Council knocked at my door on a Sunday morning and demanded access to my bins to undertake "an analysis". Unlike my neighbours, I store my wheelie bins out of site to the rear of my house.

I asked for ID, she presented it to me and I told her that I was going to verify it was genuine. You wouldn't believe this, but when I called their offices were closed!

I returned the card, refused access to my back garden on account of being unable to verify ID. She had a bit of a tantrum and made it clear that she had the *right* to review my bins under local byelaws and that the bins were the property of the council. I remained firm and refused access.

She used her mobile to dial "999" and advise the police that there was a crime in progress.

Within five minutes with blues & twos the police arrived. I knew one of the officers socially, so felt no need to verify their ID.

They were not impressed that she had called them out for this purpose and confirmed that it was their recommendation to householders to always verify the ID of people who claim to be officials from any organisation (even the police) by calling the number printed in the phonebook.

(My bins were empty, I'd been working away from home for a couple of weeks and nothing had gone in since they were last emptied...)