My under-16 proving he's under 16

[Greenback]

Similar in principle to my own earlier suggestion, therefore, I support it!

 

[richw]

. The child fares should be for accompanied children only

disagree with having to be accompanied however shouldnot be able to buy a childs ticket unaccompanied during school hours, not sure if true on rail, but first buses policy on childs tickets include no unaccomapnied child tickets after 9pm, and also this bit that i like

A child's fare or free carriage is conditional upon the child not occupying a seat required by a standing adult paying passenger

 

[jon0844]

I'll let you ask a 'child' to give up his/her seat when you're next on a bus!

 

[Sapphire Blue]

To ask a parent to have to buy a full price ticket for their child the day that child reaches its sixteenth birthday (Usually during year 11 at school) is quite frankly idiotic.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's just one of these things, it's always happened and it will continue to happen, discretion is a wonderful thing, unless i'm pretty sure the passenger concerned is ripping the backside out it, i'll let it slide, it can be pretty hard to tell, though I have found that juveniles who do look much older than they actually are tend to carry documentation of some sort to 'prove' their age as it were.

 

[Ivo]

@ Sapphire Blue: If that is "idiotic", then go visit the area I grew up in, Southend. There, the adult fare age is 14.

 

[northwichcat]

He must look a lot older than 14 then! Get a photocard. It's unusual for anyone aged 16, or even 17, to pay an adult fare, based on what I've experienced, and not be challenged.

I take it you mean 16 or 17 yr old to pay a child fare.

The Northern west-side conductors frequently say to anyone who looks over about the age of 12 if they have any proof of age, even though station staff only question them if they look over 16. Possibly they're trying to encourage kids to buy before they board the train.
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In the GMPTE area they have proof of age cards which are issued. The guards don't usually bother to ask for this

That's the opposite to my experience. Kids not living in Greater Manchester who attend schools in GM are also issued them as are kids living in GM attending schools outside GM. This results in kids boarding in Cheshire being asked for their proof of age card by some conductors and then when they say they don't have one the response they get is the schoolkids boarding at Knutsford all have them (even though the ones with them are either from the Altrincham area or go to school in Altrincham.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

disagree with having to be accompanied however shouldnot be able to buy a childs ticket unaccompanied during school hours, not sure if true on rail, but first buses policy on childs tickets include no unaccomapnied child tickets after 9pm, and also this bit that i like

I think Scrapy was saying child fares are for under 11s and then scholars fare is only for secondary school age pupils with an ID card saying they are at school, so presumably Scrapy's referring to no unaccompained under 11s, which makes sense as they aren't allowed to be left at home by themselves at that age, so why should they travel by themselves?

 

[tony_mac]

so presumably Scrapy's referring to no unaccompained under 11s, which makes sense as they aren't allowed to be left at home by themselves at that age, so why should they travel by themselves?

There is no law that says under 11s can't be left on their own, or travel unaccompanied.

Some bus companies even have a blanket policy of no child fares after 9pm. Which, I can understand when they are going out for a night on the town, but when they are on the way home from a family meal it's a bit ridiculous.

I'm not sure what not allowing unaccompanied child tickets during school hours would accomplish. Not all children go to school, school holidays / times can be different in different areas, and some have to get to / from school at odd times due to medical appointments etc.

The London example seems reasonable, where they will issue you with a photocard, but it's quite a nuisance for those who are just visiting the city.

 

[brompton rail]

The London example seems reasonable, where they will issue you with a photocard, but it's quite a nuisance for those who are just visiting the city.

Interesting point about photocards in London. Here in South Yourkshire all schoolchildren (under 16) are issued with photo identity by the PTE. This is required for child rate travel on buses and trams (40p per journey) but they travel by train for half fare (though as in GMPTE area, and WY, it serves as proof of age). At 16 to 19 a different scheme comes into play allowing concessionary travel (40p) for journeys to/from school, college and I think work only. Not valid at other times. Bus drivers enforce these rules and one effect is that children from outside South Yorkshire do not get this concessionary travel, leading to heated arguements sometimes from parents who claim their child is entitled to cheaper (than adult fate) travel. However the concessionary fare is funded by SY council tax payers.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

In West Yorkshire the adult fare is payable on buses once you reach 14 - unless you live in West Yorkshire and have a child rate photocard issued by WYPTE. These are also issued to those aged 16 - 19 in full time education only, but are a different colour. The ones for 16 - 19 year olds are valid for local journies in West Yorkshire only. They are a handy way of proving entitlement to child fare. Such a scheme should be adopted nationally I think.

For those not entitled to a PTE issued pass I always suggest a Child Rate photocard from a ticket office.

And yes, I too have had a few debates with disgruntled parents over the years as to why their little Jonny isn't entitled to half fare as he is still at school.

 

[yorkie]

I take it you mean 16 or 17 yr old to pay a child fare.

No, it's rare for them to pay adult fares. I don't know of many who bought a YP on their 16th birthday, or who paid adult fares while still at school, apart from people who look a lot older than their age who won't be able to 'get away with it'. I bet the sales of YPs for 16 year olds are very low indeed.

I've known people aged 17/18 be offered or sold child fares without them asking for a child fare.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't know of many who bought a YP on their 16th birthday, or who paid adult fares while still at school, apart from people who look a lot older than their age who won't be able to 'get away with it'. I bet the sales of YPs for 16 year olds are very low indeed.

You do now.

 

[Dewedin]

In West Yorkshire the adult fare is payable on buses once you reach 14 - unless you live in West Yorkshire and have a child rate photocard issued by WYPTE. These are also issued to those aged 16 - 19 in full time education only, but are a different colour. The ones for 16 - 19 year olds are valid for local journies in West Yorkshire only. They are a handy way of proving entitlement to child fare. Such a scheme should be adopted nationally I think.

The age for bus adult fare in WY was lowered years ago to 11 i.e. secondary school-age, makes sense. The Metro proof-of-age pass only costs a couple of pounds.

 

[northwichcat]

Bus drivers enforce these rules and one effect is that children from outside South Yorkshire do not get this concessionary travel, leading to heated arguements sometimes from parents who claim their child is entitled to cheaper (than adult fate) travel. However the concessionary fare is funded by SY council tax payers.

The interesting counter-argument to that is that before the nationwide over 60 bus pass, over 60s were only entitled to free bus travel up to the borough/county boundary and possibly other inclusions depending on the council. However, when someone clearly over 60 says they've forgotten their pass they usually got let off even though they may not have been entitled to free travel in the area they were travelling in. I've personally seen that happen on Sheffield trams as well.

You say SY council tax payers fund the reduced/free fares - that's correct. However, the way most areas see it is that there will be children from the area using buses in other areas the same way that children from other areas coming to your area and using the buses, so the two usually cancel each other out. This means that many other areas could see SY council tax payers as getting a reduced rate while they're children can enjoy child rate fares elsewhere.

One place where that the two don't cancel each other out is Blackpool and Blackpool council (who own the main bus company in Blackpool) were one who petitioned against nationwide over 60s bus passes being allowed on 'tourist routes' and in my opinion quite quite so, why should tax payers in Blackpool be funding over 60's holidays?
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You do now.

I had a railcard by the time I made my first rail journey after the age of 16. My first rail journey after the age of 16 was after I'd did my GCSEs and was for a 50 mile journey so in those circumstances I think a lot less 16-18 yr olds would try for a child fare over using a railcard as if the ticket issuer said you were over 16 then it'd be expensive to pay the full adult fare.

 

[bb21]

...
One place where that the two don't cancel each other out is Blackpool and Blackpool council (who own the main bus company in Blackpool) were one who petitioned against nationwide over 60s bus passes being allowed on 'tourist routes' and in my opinion quite quite so, why should tax payers in Blackpool be funding over 60's holidays?
...

Not only Blackpool but generally all tourist areas and local councils with large proportion of senior citizens who are struggling to fund the scheme. Bournemouth, Christchurch, Brighton all have severe shortfalls in funding.

 

[yorkie]

You do now.

One more doesn't change it from being 'not many'

 

[WestCoast]

That's the opposite to my experience. Kids not living in Greater Manchester who attend schools in GM are also issued them as are kids living in GM attending schools outside GM. This results in kids boarding in Cheshire being asked for their proof of age card by some conductors and then when they say they don't have one the response they get is the schoolkids boarding at Knutsford all have them (even though the ones with them are either from the Altrincham area or go to school in Altrincham.)

GMPTE will issue the card to anyone (you could live in London and still get one), whereas some PTEs will not! So they have no sympathy from me.

I don't often travel on the South Manchester/ Cheshire lines so I can't comment on what they are like there. But from what I've seen on TPE North West & Northern up to Preston they either don't bother (most of the time) or just ask for D.O.B.
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Not only Blackpool but generally all tourist areas and local councils with large proportion of senior citizens who are struggling to fund the scheme. Bournemouth, Christchurch, Brighton all have severe shortfalls in funding.

The scheme was not properly budgeted for, let's hope it never extends to the railways.

Off-topic slightly but Blackpool has one of the few municipal bus companies left (which also runs the trams although only local passes are valid) and it has been a major struggle for them to cope. They don't have a lot of funding available as they don't have a big backer like First, Stagecoach, Go-ahead e.tc so fare rises, service cuts and lack of new buses has been the result.

 

[richw]

a few of the local schools down here have done away wih registers etc and have a swipe card system where students have to swipe on there way into lessons, using a swipe card with their photo and name on it, i assume these count for under 16 travel age proof

 

[Greenback]

a few of the local schools down here have done away wih registers etc and have a swipe card system where students have to swipe on there way into lessons, using a swipe card with their photo and name on it, i assume these count for under 16 travel age proof

How can it? It only proves that the person is in school, not how old they are unless it also has a date of birth!

 

[455driver]

To ask a parent to have to buy a full price ticket for their child the day that child reaches its sixteenth birthday (Usually during year 11 at school) is quite frankly idiotic.

So what do you propose as an alternative then oh wise one!

I await a sensible (and workable) alternative!

 

[richw]

How can it? It only proves that the person is in school, not how old they are unless it also has a date of birth!

but in school means under 16 so therefore eligible for under 16 rate of travel,

 

[ainsworth74]

but in school means under 16 so therefore eligible for under 16 rate of travel,

Not always, I did my GCSE's when I was 17 and was most certainly still in school when I did them and went on to do A-levels at the same school.

 

[Deerfold]

but in school means under 16 so therefore eligible for under 16 rate of travel,

I seem to recall being in school at 18.

A lot of areas now have a split between schools and colleges but not all - The school I went to remains the same school whether you're 11 or 18.

But then as it was West Yorkshire I was legitimately paying half fare on trains and buses until nearly 6 months after my 18th birthday.

 

[richw]

I seem to recall being in school at 18.

A lot of areas now have a split between schools and colleges but not all - The school I went to remains the same school whether you're 11 or 18.

But then as it was West Yorkshire I was legitimately paying half fare on trains and buses until nearly 6 months after my 18th birthday.

none of the schools in my area have post 16 education so never gave that a thought

 

[tony_mac]

most people are still in school when they are 16 anyway.

 

[222007]

This subject made me think while i carrying out a ticket check tonight. I came across a young man who at some point in his journey had been charged an excess from a child fare up to an adult fare. Now he said he was 15 and had been told that if he took his passport to a booking office he could get a refund. I thought this was a little strange, i never asked who excessed him but i was a little taken back by it

 

[Chapeltom]

I bought a railcard 2 months before my 17th birthday because I was constantly being asked at Manchester Piccadilly for my age when travelling by child's ticket. I did 8/10 times though buy it very easily.

When I lost my railcard I paid adult fare, funnily enough I went to Atherton from Chinley in consecutive nights to watch football. My railcard arrived on the day of the second game and paid railcard fare.

 

[Greenback]

So do you mean you were travelling on child tickets for 10 months after truning 16 then?

 

[455driver]

If that isn't an admission of fraud I don't know what is!

 

[Greenback]

I can't understand why he was getting away with it if he was constantly being asked and replying 'I'm 16'!

I'll give Chapeltom the benefit of the doubt for now, and believe it was just a typing error and he meant 16th birthday!