My suggestions for the future for HSTs

[Prestige15]

This is my very first thread so i'll do my best.

Now the HST's

Getting old, Bits a falling off and bit of a bouncy ride but we still love them, Apart from a few going to Scotrail, Whats the future for the rest of them when they cascaded from Great Western Railway, Grand Central and Virgin Trains East Coast?

I have came up a few ideas for them, see what do you all think.

Would it be ideal if once the HST were withdrawn from GWR and VTEC to be refurbish and sent to Cross Country, East Midland Trains, South West Trains and possibly Arriva Trains Wales?

Cross Country: Most HST could move there and run exclusively on the Penzance/Plymouth - Edinburgh/Aberdeen and other long distance such as Paignton - Manchester in a 8/9 coach formation, Releasing a number of Voyagers to other service, More service running as a 8, 9 or 10 car train and perhaps replacing some Turbostars.

East Midland Trains: HST in a 5/6 car formation on a Norwich - Liverpool route in place of the 158's Even though the only section where it can reach 125mph is between Peterborough - Grantham where the rest of the lines are upto 100, It would provide greater capacity.

Arriva Trains Wales: Similar story as above, 5 coach Hst on the Holyhead - Cardiff / Manchester - Cardiff, releasing class 175's to other routes to strengthening capacity.

South West Trains: 7/8 car formation exclusively on the Waterloo - Exeter, Leaving the 159's on the more local service between Waterloo and Salisbury/Bristol.

I also came up the formation of them for each of these operators, These are just examples.

XC: 9 car - 6 full standard class coach, One buffet standard class and two 1st class coach. Overall its one and a half of extra standard class coach compared to today's HST.

EMT: 6 car - 4 Standard class, one Buffet standard, one 1st class.

ATW: 5 car - 4 Standard class, One buffet first class.

SWT: 8 car - 6 standard class, one buffet standard or first, one first class

What do you think about this idea and do you have any other suggestions? I'll try to reply as much as i could.

 

[krus_aragon]

Before you go too far in composing new ideas, are you aware that several are promised to Scotrail (to be used in 2+5 formation)?

 

[Prestige15]

Guess you've not seen ''' Apart from a few going to Scotrail, Whats the future for the rest of them when they cascaded from Great Western Railway, Grand Central and Virgin Trains East Coast?''''

 

[NSEFAN]

South West Trains: 7/8 car formation exclusively on the Waterloo - Exeter, Leaving the 159's on the more local service between Waterloo and Salisbury/Bristol.

That wouldn't be very useful unfortunately, these services are full and standing in the peaks, and space occupied by power cars would result in a reduction in capacity for the longest trains.

 

[richw]

Before you go too far in composing new ideas, are you aware that several are promised to Scotrail (to be used in 2+5 formation)?

His second paragraph suggests he is.

 

[Prestige15]

That wouldn't be very useful unfortunately, these services are full and standing in the peaks, and space occupied by power cars would result in a reduction in capacity for the longest trains.


I guess that's true about the SWT part. Not fully 100% sure if stations were long enough but i gave it a try

 

[najaB]

Take a look at this thread for some previous discussion.

 

[Monty]

That wouldn't be very useful unfortunately, these services are full and standing in the peaks, and space occupied by power cars would result in a reduction in capacity for the longest trains.

That really wouldn't be so much of an issue if there was extra capacity between Yeovil Jn and Salisbury so we could run extra trains during the peak. HSTs running between Waterloo and Exeter is tantalising prospect of having rolling designed for long distances on what should be a trunk mainline route. However the line speeds are too low to make any use of the trains high speed and I'm not sure how the power cars would cope with the constant stopping and starting west of Salisbury. In NSE days the 50s and 47s were thoroughly knackered on the route because of it.

In short, massive infrastructure improvements would be required to make full use of the trains on the WoE ML.

 

[sprinterguy]

As far as Great Westerns' HST sets go, Scotrail will be taking on around half of the sets that they operate; with fewer vehicles as they'll be operating 2+4 and 2+5 sets initially, but that doesn't change the number of power cars involved.

Currently it looks like Great Western will be keeping on a minimum of eleven shortened HST sets for South West regional services, so that doesn't leave a huge number of complete sets available for alternate use, just individual vehicles which, being forty years old, will probably be scrapped.

Crosscountry see a future for their current five HST sets but it would take a new franchise operator to recognise a future for any additional HSTs, by which time most available sets will have been disposed of. East Midlands Trains have been only too keen to get rid of any additional HSTs outside of those that they have immediate need of over the past decade or so, so I can't see them taking on additional trains.

Grand Central would rather take on additional class 180s than add power doors to their HST sets, so I think that it's inevitable that we start to look towards the scrapping of life expired mark 3 vehicles: Some of the oldest are forty years old now, after all.

 

[D365]

However the line speeds are too low to make any use of the trains high speed and I'm not sure how the power cars would cope with the constant stopping and starting west of Salisbury. In NSE days the 50s and 47s were thoroughly knackered on the route because of it.

Which is exactly why the Turbos were purchased instead of the proposed 'mini HSTs'.

And as sprinterguy points out, don't forget about the shortened HSTs that GWR will be retaining.

 

[IanXC]

Grand Central would rather take on additional class 180s than add power doors to their HST sets, so I think that it's inevitable that we start to look towards the scrapping of life expired mark 3 vehicles: Some of the oldest are forty years old now, after all.

Grand Central have indeed confirmed they are taking on GWR's 5 Cl180s to replace their HST fleet when they become available.

 

[Prestige15]

Which is exactly why the Turbos were purchased instead of the proposed 'mini HSTs'.

And as sprinterguy points out, don't forget about the shortened HSTs that GWR will be retaining.

And as what NSEFAN pointed out a 2+5 formation would be a nightmare out of Waterloo during the peaks unless there's additional service but again doing that would cause congestion

 

[PHILIPE]

And as what NSEFAN pointed out a 2+5 formation would be a nightmare out of Waterloo during the peaks unless there's additional service but again doing that would cause congestion

Also any HSTs with swing link couplings are banned from third rail. Simebody may be able to fill you in with any technical details.

 

[Prestige15]

Well this is my first so, I gave it go, Think i did OK.

I'm moving on to a new thread as i have another question.

But don't hesitate to leave your comments with your opinions about this thread. The more i read the better understanding.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Also any HSTs with swing link couplings are banned from third rail. Simebody may be able to fill you in with any technical details.

Are you getting mixed up with the links on the bogies?

In any case:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15602.msg174227#msg174227

The post in a thread at another forum explains the difference between the short link and long link bogies. The long link bogies will foul the third rail.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure how the power cars would cope with the constant stopping and starting west of Salisbury. In NSE days the 50s and 47s were thoroughly knackered on the route because of it.
.

They seem to manage perfectly well between Plymouth and Penzance, which seems to be a bit of a stopper.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'd suggest that rather than putting 2+9 HSTs on the North-East/South-West route with CrossCountry (where you'd have a lot of excess capacity in the Winter months) it would be better to put them on the Manchester to Bournemouth route.

By my estimation it takes 11 Voyagers to operate this route Monday to Saturday, so if we said there were 13 HSTs to do this (maybe use 43124-43152 that heave GEC Traction motors) when they come off lease with GWR, operating in a 2+5 (PC-TCC-TSD-TS-TS-TGS-PC).

This would release 11 Voyagers that can be used on the NE-SW route in place of the current 2+7 HSTS. Use 2x220 (8-car) in place of the HSTs, use 5-car 221s on some trains currently operating with a 4-car 220 to potentially allow a couple more 8-car 220 services.

HST seating: -

TCC (Trailer Composite Catering) 30F/10S 1T
TSD (Trailer Standard Disabled) 66S 1TD 2 Wheelchair Spaces
TSD (Trailer Standard) 82S 1T
TGS (Trailer Guard Standard) 67S 1T

Total HST seating: 30 First 307 Standard 2 Wheelchair Spaces
Total 220 seating: 26 First 160 Standard 2 Wheelchair Spaces
Total 221 seating: 26 First 220 Standard 2 Wheelchair Spaces

So a 2+5 HST on the Manchester to Bournemouth route would offer an increase in capacity and allow NE-SW services to be strengthened with the 220/221 sets.

Mind you, if it were not for the fact Grand Central was getting the 180s I would suggest that the 180s (14 in total) would be ideal to operate the Manchester to Bournemouth route with Alstom maintaining them at Longsight.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

HSTs won't run forever, they're good for another 10 or 15 years of lighter less intensive operation, enough time to recoup the investment in retention toilets, power doors and some new interiors, beyond that, we should have enough new OLE to allow their replacement with electric stock, new or otherwise.

There's also the small matter of the 27 Class 222 units to deal with, they're likely to end up with XC post MML electrification, making any plan for XC to use HST stock pretty futile. The acceleration of HST stock is a pathing nightmare as it is.

 

[yorksrob]

Mind you, if it were not for the fact Grand Central was getting the 180s I would suggest that the 180s (14 in total) would be ideal to operate the Manchester to Bournemouth route with Alstom maintaining them at Longsight.

Yes, please keep them, so GC can continue with good trains.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the IEPs could be equipped to operate off of 3rd rail then I would have thought that long term IEPs could be used if a good chunk of the Bournemouth-Manchester route is either under wires or has 3rd rail available instead of using HSTs

 

[Envoy]

It surely would be best if Grand Central could have hybrid IEP’s and the 180’s go to operate routes between Manchester & Wales - which are often overloaded.

 

[RichmondCommu]

.

And as sprinterguy points out, don't forget about the shortened HSTs that GWR will be retaining.

Is that a definite or just an option for GWR at the current time?

 

[IanXC]

It surely would be best if Grand Central could have hybrid IEP’s and the 180’s go to operate routes between Manchester & Wales - which are often overloaded.

I'm yet to be convinced they have a business which could support this kind of investment.

 

[Andy-mc]

I love the optimism as people do love the HST, but in reality I think unless they are desperate to provide extra capacity on some lines, I think it will be time for the majority to make there way to the scrap heap and heritage lines. Or maybe a company can come along and do what vivarail have done to the old underground trains and fully refurbish them for the modern day

 

[krus_aragon]

Guess you've not seen ''' Apart from a few going to Scotrail, Whats the future for the rest of them when they cascaded from Great Western Railway, Grand Central and Virgin Trains East Coast?''''

Nope, missed that. My apologies.

 

[Clansman]

I do agree that the XC would benefit from more HSTs to displace the Voyagers from long distance routes, especially on Scotland to Plymouth/Penzance routes.
But just to clarify, when we talk about "HSTs" in the context of life span, are we on about the 43s or the Mk3 coaches (both)? Just curious because wouldn't you have thought the Mk3s could potentially last a lot longer than the power cars themselves? With Chiltern and Scotrail doing a rebuild of the Mk3s it could increase their life span by 20+ years? Unless even more TOCs choosing to divert from loco haul altogether (excluding the ones we already know about; VTEC, GWR etc) it may be worth highlighting that the Mk3s could last a lot longer than the power cars if the Mk5s only reach as far as TPE and CS.

 

[D365]

Is that a definite or just an option for GWR at the current time?

It's an option that is almost guaranteed to be taken up. Especially since First Group own some of their own power cars.

If the IEPs could be equipped to operate off of 3rd rail then I would have thought that long term IEPs could be used if a good chunk of the Bournemouth-Manchester route is either under wires or has 3rd rail available instead of using HSTs

Why would it be necessary to run off third rail, as opposed to just diesel.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm yet to be convinced they have a business which could support this kind of investment.

Grand Central or ATW?

With regard to ATW, from a purely armchair perspective I might consider that they have a similar financial profile to Scotrail, which doesn't seem to have any foibles about taking on a large number of HST sets as part of the new franchise. As I say, I have no idea of whether it stacks up financially, but with regard to the 180s then, straying into fantasy land as we already know that most of the sets are already accounted for with Grand Central, a fleet of fourteen five carriage trains that could be maintained at Chester alongside the fairly mechanically similar 175s would seem ideal for the heavily loaded Manchester - Cardiff and/or North Wales Coast services.

Failing that, refurbished HSTs akin to Scotrails' plans actually wouldn't be a bad idea: It's daft that in the face of ever rising passenger numbers the railways are still running two carriage glorified buses on major regional routes. DB/Arriva group companies do have form in the limited introduction of mark 3 stock to bolster capacity, as seen at Crosscountry, Chiltern and at ATW itself.

There seem to be a couple of potentially viable options for the 180 fleet that could help alleviate overcrowding if only they were placed with a franchised operator rather than being the darling of open access operators: Manchester - Bournemouth as mentioned by Helvellyn above, or Manchester - Cardiff.

And with regard to Grand Central, with the backing of parent company DB/Arriva I wouldn't have thought that they'd be in a worse financial position than comparable open access operator Hull Trains (again, this being spoken from a position of restricted knowledge from behind a computer keyboard), who have put an order in for five AT-300 trains, though admittedly riding on the coat tails of parent company First Groups' sizeable order for these trains? Don't forget that Grand Central were looking to order new Polaris trains from CRSE some time ago.
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Why would it be necessary to run off third rail, as opposed to just diesel.

Indeed, why overcomplicate an already complex design by adding third rail capability when the trains can already run on diesel power over these sections.

 

[PHILIPE]

Before suggesting too much, remember the restriction on HSTs with long swing link couplings and their ban over third rail routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Before suggesting too much, remember the restriction on HSTs with long swing link couplings and their ban over third rail routes.

Where are you getting this 'swing link couplings' stuff from? It is nothing to do with the couplings, please refer to SpacePhoenix's earlier reply.

The correct term is 'long swing link' bogies.