My proposal for a new smart based rail ticketing system

[philosopher]

Here is how it would work. There would be a base fare of £1 per 10 miles plus a minimum charge of £1. Therefore a 100 mile journey would cost £11. All fares would be singles. Therefore a return would cost exactly double.

Surcharges would be as follows:

• Peak time trains (all journeys finishing between 06:30 and 09:30 and 16:00 and 19:00 on weekdays) would have a 50% surcharge. Some rural lines such as the West Highland Line may have no peak period.
• Intercity, as in what were Intercity trains under British Rail and High Speed One trains would have a 50% surcharge. For routes that are only served by Intercity trains, this surcharge would be removed for the part of the route that can only be made by an Intercity train.
• First Class would have a 100% surcharge.
• If High Speed Two gets built would have a 100% surcharge.

Ticketing would be done via a smart card, payment card or smartphone wave and pay system similar to what is used by TfL, with cards being validated on entering and exiting stations. Paper tickets would still be available, however there would be a £5 fee for buying one to discourage their use. If travelling on first class, an Intercity or High Speed One train, the passenger would have to validate twice at the origin station, first when entering the station and second when boarding the train. Ideally the second validation would be done by member of staff when boarding the train to minimise fare evasion, otherwise it would be done by a card reader in the train vestibule area.

Reservations would be available on Intercity trains, with the reservation fee varying between £1 and £10 depending on the distance and train occupancy level. They would paid for via a smartphone app or online and linked to the payment or smart card. Reservations would not be refundable to prevent people making reservations they will not use.

No break of journey would be allowed. Passengers crossing London would have 2 hours and 1 hour in other cities to change between stations, before the system picks it up as another fare.

Instead of season tickets, there would be a weekly, monthly and yearly fare cap for each route which in effect would give a number of "free" journeys once the passenger has made a certain number of journeys on a particular route.

I accept this system would likely raise less revenue than the current system and would therefore require more subsidy. However it is a lot simpler, more passenger friendly and makes the most use of current technology. Passengers would automatically be charged the lowest fare for the journey they are making as they would have pay a second time for any enhancements to their journey (Intercity, first class or a reservation).

 

[Llanigraham]

That would kill rail travel, it certainly isn't passenger friendly, and it takes absolutely no account of rural travel.

 

[yorkie]

Here is how it would work. There would be a base fare of £1 per 10 miles plus a minimum charge of £1. Therefore a 100 mile journey would cost £11. All fares would be singles. Therefore a return would cost exactly double.

Surcharges would be as follows:

• Peak time trains (all journeys finishing between 06:30 and 09:30 and 16:00 and 19:00 on weekdays) would have a 50% surcharge.

Just checking, if I want to get the 0640 train from York and 1850 arrival, I can avoid the peak fare by booking from Poppleton (departing pre-0630, arriving after 1900), right?

• Some rural lines such as the West Highland Line may have no peak period.

Does that include journeys that extend onto other lines?

• Intercity, as in what were Intercity trains under British Rail and High Speed One trains would have a 50% surcharge. For routes that are only served by Intercity trains, this surcharge would be removed for the part of the route that can only be made by an Intercity train.

Just checking, would Worcester - Paddington, Bedwyn - Paddington on IETs not attract the surcharge as they were Network Southeast Turbos under BR?

Also, York to Doncaster can only be done on IC trains if going direct, so the surcharge would be removed for the whole journey? But what about York to Sheffield? There are 3 direct non-IC trains, so all bar those three do attract the surcharge? If so, I will be sure to split at Donny.

• First Class would have a 100% surcharge.

Will you remove First on GTR, Southeastern etc?

• If High Speed Two gets built would have a 100% surcharge.

What about HS1?

Ticketing would be done via a smart card, payment card or smartphone wave and pay system similar to what is used by TfL, with cards being validated on entering and exiting stations.

A nationwide PAYG scheme? What would the maximum fare be, for not tapping out?

Paper tickets would still be available, however there would be a £5 fee for buying one to discourage their use. If travelling on first class, an Intercity or High Speed One train, the passenger would have to validate twice at the origin station, first when entering the station and second when boarding the train. Ideally the second validation would be done by member of staff when boarding the train to minimise fare evasion, otherwise it would be done by a card reader in the train vestibule area.

How many readers would be required in the vestibule of XC Voyagers?

Reservations would be available on Intercity trains, with the reservation fee varying between £1 and £10 depending on the distance and train occupancy level.

Even if they are reservation compulsory trains?

They would paid for via a smartphone app or online and linked to the payment or smart card. Reservations would not be refundable to prevent people making reservations they will not use.

No break of journey would be allowed. Passengers crossing London would have 2 hours and 1 hour in other cities to change between stations, before the system picks it up as another fare.

Instead of season tickets, there would be a weekly, monthly and yearly fare cap for each route which in effect would give a number of "free" journeys once the passenger has made a certain number of journeys on a particular route.

Would that still apply if a passenger alternates between two similar journeys e.g Hertford North to Moorgate / Hertford East to Liverpool St ?

I accept this system would likely raise less revenue than the current system and would therefore require more subsidy. However it is a lot simpler, more passenger friendly and makes the most use of current technology. Passengers would automatically be charged the lowest fare for the journey they are making as they would have pay a second time for any enhancements to their journey (Intercity, first class or a reservation).

As it's so simple I trust it'll be easy to answer my questions above

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Peak time trains (all journeys finishing between 06:30 and 09:30 and 16:00 and 19:00 on weekdays) would have a 50% surcharge. Some rural lines such as the West Highland Line may have no peak period.

Any time based price difference should be based on start time rather than finishing time (like oyster), otherwise a delayed train could cost the passenger more money than they expected.

 

[yorkie]

I am guessing York to Sheffield would attract the premium because there are direct non-IC trains (albeit only typically 3 per day) so that makes it £11 each way, totalling £22 for a return, which is rather more than at present.

York to Doncaster cannot easily be done by non-IC trains, certainly not directly, so I am guessing the premium does not apply. Therefore the fare is only about £4.50 each way.

Once at Doncaster, you can then either pay the premium to use XC, or for pretty much the same journey time you could take TPE without paying the premium as TPE wasn't an IC service under BR.

Presumably one has to tap out and back in, in order to benefit from splitting in this way?

Also, do I have the cost correct for York to Sheffield, as I am assuming the mileage via Doncaster is what counts. But would you actually charge the mileage via Leeds, or via Pontefract/Rotherham? Or would you take the theoretical direct mileage via Pontefract avoiding Rotherham for the calculations?

 

[philosopher]

Obviously changing the ticketing in this way would be a very big undertaking so there would be issues when implementing it. Here is a go at answering the questions.

Does that include journeys that extend onto other lines?

It would only apply to that rural line. So if the passenger went until another line such as a Glasgow commuter line, they would have to pay the peak time fare. The ticketing system would calculate what part of the journey the peak fare applied.

Also, York to Doncaster can only be done on IC trains if going direct, so the surcharge would be removed for the whole journey? But what about York to Sheffield? There are 3 direct non-IC trains, so all bar those three do attract the surcharge? If so, I will be sure to split at Donny.

The IC surcharge would only apply if it is possible to travel between two destinations on a fairly direct route. York to Doncaster via Sheffield is a fairly indirect route that involves backtracking so in this case the surcharge would not apply. The IC surcharge would apply to routes where there are obvious intercity and non-IC trains such as London to Birmingham and London to Reading. Obviously there would need to quite a bit of work out where this surcharge could apply.

Will you remove First on GTR, Southeastern etc?

Ideally there would need to be standardised first class product, so first class in these trains would either significantly improved (for example 2 by 1 seating) or more likely as these are more local services, removed.

A nationwide PAYG scheme? What would the maximum fare be, for not tapping out?

I agree this would be an issue that could be tricky to resolve.

How many readers would be required in the vestibule of XC Voyagers?

Ideally validation would be prior to boarding the train by station staff. If the vestibule of an XC Voyager is overcrowded I agree there could be an issue with people not validating their ticket, even if there are 20 readers! However in my experience if the train is overcrowded then the train manager usually does not check tickets meaning fare evasion can be an issue with the current system.

What about HS1?

HS1 would have the IC surcharge as the speeds on this line for domestic trains is closer to most current IC trains rather than future HS2 trains.

Even if they are reservation compulsory trains?

No daytime train would be reservation compulsory, they would have at least one carriage for non reservations, however the risk for passengers without reservations is that they would have to stand!

Would that still apply if a passenger alternates between two similar journeys e.g Hertford North to Moorgate / Hertford East to Liverpool St ?

The would apply between stations to and from a station group. So as the two Hertford stations are in one group and Moorgate and Liverpool Street are part of the London Terminals group the frequent journey cap would apply in this case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of note is that the proposal above does not massively differ from the Dutch OV-Chipkaart in operation.

 

[30907]

yorkie was asking about York to Sheffield splitting at Doncaster not v.v.

I quite like the idea of determining peak/off peak by arrival at destination in the morning peak, but please not for the evening. The disadvantage is that you get a big peak of arrivals at 0931-0940 (back in the day the SR actually ran extras into London to cope with the demand at 1001-1010) - the reverse of the current 1900 problem!

 

[tasky]

How does the system calculate which route has been taken (to differentiate between IC and non-IC) if the staff member on the train fails to check tickets in time, or the train has driver-only operation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does the system calculate which route has been taken (to differentiate between IC and non-IC) if the staff member on the train fails to check tickets in time, or the train has driver-only operation?

In the Netherlands you have to touch a validator on the platform before boarding for this purpose. If you don't it's a PF if caught.

The system proposed might not suit the UK but it is pretty much exactly the Dutch system, so it is viable.

 

[PeterC]

Inter City would need to be an identifiable brand across the network with a minimum quality offer to make a premium acceptable to the public.

How does the system calculate which route has been taken (to differentiate between IC and non-IC) if the staff member on the train fails to check tickets in time, or the train has driver-only operation?

In the Netherlands you have to touch a validator on the platform before boarding for this purpose. If you don't it's a PF if caught.

The system proposed might not suit the UK but it is pretty much exactly the Dutch system, so it is viable.

Over here I can see issues with passengers using validators just because they are there (I know that for years Oyster users would use on platform validators redundantly) or with the validators being poorly positioned. I would prefer on train inspection myself. (No on-board staff would, by definition, mean not qualifying for an inter city premium)

 

[Llanigraham]

Ideally validation would be prior to boarding the train by station staff. If the vestibule of an XC Voyager is overcrowded I agree there could be an issue with people not validating their ticket, even if there are 20 readers! However in my experience if the train is overcrowded then the train manager usually does not check tickets meaning fare evasion can be an issue with the current system.

Do I presume from that you are going to provide validators at EVERY station in the UK, or by staffing EVERY station?
Have you calculated the cost of that?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Any time based price difference should be based on start time rather than finishing time (like oyster), otherwise a delayed train could cost the passenger more money than they expected.

I don't agree. It should be done by arrival time not departure time. I find it unfair that the earliest off peak train I can get in the mornings from Flitwick is the 0945 (arriving London St Pancras at 1034) while people from St Albans can arrive at 1002 having got on a train that departed Flitwick at 0913 which I wasn't allowed to get on with an off peak ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do I presume from that you are going to provide validators at EVERY station in the UK, or by staffing EVERY station?
Have you calculated the cost of that?

There are already validators at quite a lot of stations. All LNR stations, I believe, for a start.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do I presume from that you are going to provide validators at EVERY station in the UK, or by staffing EVERY station?

There are of course validators at every station in Scotland including all the shacks in the Highlands where you're more like to see a deer than a passenger. So I agree in terms of staffing every station but fitting validators wouldn't be particularly hard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are of course validators at every station in Scotland including all the shacks in the Highlands where you're more like to see a deer than a passenger. So I agree in terms of staffing every station but fitting validators wouldn't be particularly hard.

Arguably a touch-in touch-out smartcard/contactless system enables destaffing, just as it has on the London Underground where all staffed ticket offices have now closed. If you've got staff sitting behind windows at the station, they might as well also flog traditional paper tickets.

 

[PeterC]

I don't agree. It should be done by arrival time not departure time. I find it unfair that the earliest off peak train I can get in the mornings from Flitwick is the 0945 (arriving London St Pancras at 1034) while people from St Albans can arrive at 1002 having got on a train that departed Flitwick at 0913 which I wasn't allowed to get on with an off peak ticket.

The advantage of using time of entry is that that is under the passenger's control. A late running train could trip the passenger from off peak to peak."Peak" could of course be defined on a per station basis, probably applied en-bloc on a regional basis and then adjusted according to local demand.

 

[PeterC]

Just been playing with the idea and calculated four possible of peak fares London to Worcester via the Cotswold Line depending on where you change.
As well as a possible "inter city" fare if a through, IC quality, service is offered and a low "all local services" fare there are different fares if you change from "inter city" to "local" at Reading or Oxford. Perfectly simple and reasonable in my view and all competitive with driving but I could see the complaints coming in about the "confusing" fares when somebody could pay £14, £16, £17.50 or £21 for off peak travel depending on which trains they caught.

 

[R G NOW.]

Ticketing would be done via a smart card, payment card or smartphone wave and pay system similar to what is used by TfL, with cards being validated on entering and exiting stations. Paper tickets would still be available, however there would be a £5 fee for buying one to discourage their use. If travelling on first class, an Intercity or High Speed One train, the passenger would have to validate twice at the origin station, first when entering the station and second when boarding the train. Ideally the second validation would be done by member of staff when boarding the train to minimise fare evasion, otherwise it would be done by a card reader in the train vestibule area.

).

I do not agree to the underlined text, crikey it would cost me 10.10 to goto Cheltenham,just wouldn't be worth it and also I need a paper ticket to work the gates.

I also already have to fork out 3 pounds on my BT bills because often their site does'nt log in.

 

[Hadders]

An interesting proposal. Stevenage - London is 27 miles each way, I travel 2 or 3 times a week during the peak both ways. Not often enough to justify a season ticket. The journey is 27 miles each way and costs £22.70 return.

Under your proposal I’d pay £5.05 each way (£1 plus 27 miles at 15p per mile (10p plus 50% surcharge for peak time travel). So £10.10 return.

An absolute snip and I look forward to it’s introduction

I’m the real world it won’t happen.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Do I presume from that you are going to provide validators at EVERY station in the UK, or by staffing EVERY station?
Have you calculated the cost of that?

No more expensive than installing a ticket machine? Perhaps cheaper.

 

[PeterC]

An interesting proposal. Stevenage - London is 27 miles each way, I travel 2 or 3 times a week during the peak both ways. Not often enough to justify a season ticket. The journey is 27 miles each way and costs £22.70 return.

Under your proposal I’d pay £5.05 each way (£1 plus 27 miles at 15p per mile (10p plus 50% surcharge for peak time travel). So £10.10 return.

An absolute snip and I look forward to it’s introduction

I’m the real world it won’t happen.

I read the proposal as charging in 10 mile stages which would clock in at £5.50 each way (£6 if you apply the peak premium to the whole fare). I agree that it could never happen, shame as it is a price point that would get me out of my car without any push factors like a congestion charge at my destination. Assuming of course that car park charges weren't increased to compensate.

 

[PeterC]

No more expensive than installing a ticket machine? Perhaps cheaper.

Probably a lot cheaper but you would need more, including "pink readers" at interchanges.

 

[Llanigraham]

No more expensive than installing a ticket machine? Perhaps cheaper.

I was thinking of stations like Sugar Loaf Halt, or typically any of the stations on the Heart of Wales or on the Cambrian Coast.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was thinking of stations like Sugar Loaf Halt, or typically any of the stations on the Heart of Wales or on the Cambrian Coast.

As stated earlier every station in Scotland is already fitted with a smartcard validator. This is includes stations such as Loch Eil Outward Bound, Kildonan and Corrour all of which are lightly used (well Corrour less so to be fair) and are extremely remote from towns (or even villages). Indeed Corrour does not have road access to the station. It will not be an issue to fit a smartcard validator at Sugar Loaf Halt or any other remote station you care to name if Scotrail have been able to fit every station in Scotland with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As stated earlier every station in Scotland is already fitted with a smartcard validator. This is includes stations such as Loch Eil Outward Bound, Kildonan and Corrour all of which are lightly used (well Corrour less so to be fair) and are extremely remote from towns (or even villages). Indeed Corrour does not have road access to the station. It will not be an issue to fit a smartcard validator at Sugar Loaf Halt or any other remote station you care to name if Scotrail have been able to fit every station in Scotland with them.

I suspect it's probably cheaper to fit one than it is to maintain the lighting. That said, I suppose for contactless it would require comms which may be a challenge at any remote location without a mobile signal. Perhaps satellite could be used?

 

[Llanigraham]

Whilst Scotland might already have these facilities, Wales doesn't, which leads on to two problems, remembering that transport has been devolved.
Would the Welsh Assembly follow the lead of Westminster?
Would the Welsh Assembly have the money to pay for this?

Yes, if comms is required it could cause difficulties in some places. I'm intrigued how they manage in the mentioned remote Scottish locations.

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst Scotland might already have these facilities, Wales doesn't, which leads on to two problems, remembering that transport has been devolved.
Would the Welsh Assembly follow the lead of Westminster?
Would the Welsh Assembly have the money to pay for this?

The Scotrail franchise is devolved to the Scottish Government who mandated that the franchisee installed the smartcard readers. And if the Scottish Government was able to come up with the funds to do it then I'm sure the Welsh one would to.

(Of course this assumes that the madcap plan proposed in this thread were to come to pass which it never will, let's not lose sight of that context!)

 

[Indigo Soup]

As stated earlier every station in Scotland is already fitted with a smartcard validator. This is includes stations such as Loch Eil Outward Bound, Kildonan and Corrour all of which are lightly used (well Corrour less so to be fair) and are extremely remote from towns (or even villages). Indeed Corrour does not have road access to the station. It will not be an issue to fit a smartcard validator at Sugar Loaf Halt or any other remote station you care to name if Scotrail have been able to fit every station in Scotland with them.

There's also an electronic PIS at every station except for Dunrobin Castle, which was deliberately excluded from the programme because of the station's special status - either as a listed building or as a privately-owned station, I can't remember the exact logic.

Making such a system work would require a clear system of train classification, if only to make it crystal clear which trains attract a premium. The current structure of British passenger railway operations doesn't really make this straightforward, but it's solvable.

With such proposals I don't tend to get too wound up about precise numbers, they can be fiddled around to make it all work out. A few years ago, the average fare came out at 23.2p per mile (total farebox revenue divided by total passenger-miles) - almost exactly 2d/mile in 1962 prices.

There are of course anomalies with such a system. There are anomalies with any system, but distance-based pricing is at least transparent about how they arise. What makes such a scheme difficult to implement nationwide is the difficulty of doing any kind of demand management except in a very crude way.

 

[swt_passenger]

What about first class validators?