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My proposal for a 2nd phase of the Thameslink Programme

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Class377/5

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Just to point out at no point has it been said the Moorgate services will be separate franchise from Thameslink. It's all rumours from people outside the railway. The fantasy of LO taking over is just that. TfL have publicly stated they are only interested in taking over parts of Southeastern and Greater Anglia metro routes.
 
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Chris125

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TfL have publicly stated they are only interested in taking over parts of Southeastern and Greater Anglia metro routes.

TfL have prioritised those areas but as they've said themselves, taking over certain Southeastern and Greater Anglia services "would also act as a stepping stone and proving ground for the model of TfL taking over part of an existing larger franchise, on the way to full devolution across London"

Mayor's Rail Vision

Chris
 

Class377/5

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TfL have prioritised those areas but as they've said themselves, taking over certain Southeastern and Greater Anglia services "would also act as a stepping stone and proving ground for the model of TfL taking over part of an existing larger franchise, on the way to full devolution across London"

Mayor's Rail Vision

Chris

And you don't think TfL can take over that much of the Metro network? Considering the level of co-operation between Thameslink and TfL and fact that these stations have good tph as well as Oyster on them means they will be left alone. GA is in part because TfL believe its under ultilised and they want to improve it, where as SET has had it's fair share of critism and TfL offer the chance to change that. Not that SET passengers would see any change other than a new livery. Or rather doors change colour.
 

mister-sparky

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Really the only one of those many proposals to actually have a chance of happening is West Hampstead. All the others would be stupidly expensive and the benefits of all that expense wouldn't even come close to justifying the costs. They've only just/still doing the refurbishments and rebuilding of the core route, which is already massively over budget. They're not going to rip it all up and rebuild it all again in 5 years time are they?! Most peoples ideas on this forum come from cloud cuckoo land and it's blindingly obvious they don't have a clue about anything realistic.
 

hluraven

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Just to point out at no point has it been said the Moorgate services will be separate franchise from Thameslink. It's all rumours from people outside the railway.

It is the proposal in the TSGN and ICEC DfT franchise consultations. Whilst it was worded as a proposal, it was definitely the thinking from DfT, whether that has changed after the reviews is moot though, it was from the DfT not "rumours from people outside the railway".
 

AlanFry1

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I think you'll find that they are the same length as 12-car 350's and 450's, and the rest of the list doesn't really disprove the fact that trains substantially longer than a 12-car 377 are exceptionally rare in this country.

Chris

Sorry for my mistake...

I did not say that 240+ meter trains where common, but they are not as rare as some have suggested
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Really the only one of those many proposals to actually have a chance of happening is West Hampstead. All the others would be stupidly expensive and the benefits of all that expense wouldn't even come close to justifying the costs. They've only just/still doing the refurbishments and rebuilding of the core route, which is already massively over budget. They're not going to rip it all up and rebuild it all again in 5 years time are they?! Most peoples ideas on this forum come from cloud cuckoo land and it's blindingly obvious they don't have a clue about anything realistic.

Is is not the case that they have finished the rebuilding of the core network and they only have to rebuild London Bridge and introduce the new trains (along with some minor track work)

But I agree that the project I am proposing is going to be a lot more expensive than the Thameslink Programme, but is it not the case that its likely to need additional capacity in the near future?

Also I am thing that if this project gets the go ahead, I was thinking of work in the Mid-2020s, which would be 10-15 years after the rebuilding of the core section

I did put in some thought before suggesting this idea, but this was mainly if it could be done, not if it is worth doing considering the costs involved
 

JamesRowden

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But I agree that the project I am proposing is going to be a lot more expensive than the Thameslink Programme, but is it not the case that its likely to need additional capacity in the near future?

Also I am thing that if this project gets the go ahead, I was thinking of work in the Mid-2020s, which would be 10-15 years after the rebuilding of the core section

How about extending HS2 to the South Coast? Extra capacity is not just needed in Central London but also on the lines to London (e.g. Brighton Mainline).
 

ntg

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TfL have prioritised those areas but as they've said themselves, taking over certain Southeastern and Greater Anglia services "would also act as a stepping stone and proving ground for the model of TfL taking over part of an existing larger franchise, on the way to full devolution across London"

Mayor's Rail Vision

Chris

Can we really see London Overground trains running to Dartford, Hertford, and Welwyn Garden City though?

They're at least going to have to come up with some new colours other than orange, anyway...
 

jopsuk

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Chesham, on the London Underground, is 40.5km from Charing Cross (traditionally taken as the centre of London)
Epping is 26.5km
Shenfield, soon(ish) to become the end of TfL's Crossrail operation, is 34.4km
Maidenhead, at the other end, is 41.4km


Hertford East is 32.6km, North similar
Welwyn Garden City station is 33.0km
Dartford is 24.9km

What's so ridiculous about those being served by "London" Overground?

I reckon though they already need different colours- would a coloured stripe up the middle of the orange work in terms of legibility, especially for the partially sighted?

If it does, could perhaps apply similar logic to the DLR to show the different services, and in the future, assuming Crossrail (perhaps London Crossrail) stays as a brand, it could work for the (hopefully) multiple Crossrail lines, perhaps also for any Tram expansion? Leaving Underground lines as solid colours.
 

ntg

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Yeah, true, I guess TfL has a precedent for operating outside of London already on the Met and Central line as it is.

If they want control of the new super Thameslink/Southern franchise too the closest model would be the RER I suppose.
 

D365

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Isn't Crossrail supposed to be more comparable to RER? And if Hertford/Moorgate was transferred to LO, which does make sense in some ways, would 313s be retained and refurbished or could 378s be tagged on at some point?
 

Class377/5

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It is the proposal in the TSGN and ICEC DfT franchise consultations. Whilst it was worded as a proposal, it was definitely the thinking from DfT, whether that has changed after the reviews is moot though, it was from the DfT not "rumours from people outside the railway".

No it was a rumour that pre dated the consultation by several years as I don't agree.
 

ert47

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Isn't Crossrail supposed to be more comparable to RER? And if Hertford/Moorgate was transferred to LO, which does make sense in some ways, would 313s be retained and refurbished or could 378s be tagged on at some point?

And here is that infamous question; Has a 378 ever been to Moorgate? :roll:
 

jopsuk

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I'd reckon by the time Moorgate might get added to LO, any new stock for the line would likely be a new design.
 

johnb

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Yeah, true, I guess TfL has a precedent for operating outside of London already on the Met and Central line as it is.

And, since we're talking about National Rail services in orange trains, Watford!
 

AlanFry1

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2. If you look on a map where Old Street is in relation to Farringdon, I'd say that would not be the easiest thing in the world. If you want it to go to a section level with the current Thameslink platforms, then you need to have a lot of tight curves along Old Street itself, and if you want to have a separate level then good luck negotiating the grade changes to get around Crossrail. Even then you'll need to have a fairly tight curve on a fairly steep grade to get your trains to face the right way (ie South-South-West) before you hit City Thameslink.

To fix this I would modify this proposal:

Instead I would still close the Old Street-Moorgate section of the Northern City Line, but build a new rail line from Old Street to City Thameslink (instead of Farringdon) to make it a less difficult curve than the original plan, this will also mean that there is a intimate station at Barbican

Due to this (and the fact there is a 20tph gap in the original plans), the London Bridge-Blackfriars-City Thameslink section will now become 6-tracked, the rest of the core section will remain 4-tracked since there would not be enough services to demand 2 additional tracks (the Northern City Line and West Anglican services will diverge at City Thameslink)

3. Lea Valley lines to Farringdon (from Bethnal Green), while you have more distance, you'll either end up with a MASSIVE curve, which will be very expensive, or more tight/steep workings.
To fix this I would modify this proposal:

Instead I would link the “linking section” from Bethnal Green to Barbican, where it will meet the Northern City Line “linking section” which joins up with the main Thameslink “Core” section at City Thameslink

I have absolutely no idea where the space would come from to 4-track the Thameslink core without demolishing a sizeable amount of Central London![/QUOTE]

Well for the sections (of the Core Section) that are underground (St Pancras Thameslink-Farringdon, Farringdon-City Thameslink), no buildings would have to be demolished, all you would have to do is bore additional tunnels and rebuild City Thameslink (which is underground)

As for the rest of Thameslink “Core” section, well I will explain by dividing it into sections:

(Note due to changes to my proposal, the London Bridge-Blackfriars-City Thameslink section will now become 6-tracked, while the rest will remain 4-tracked)

Blackfriars: The 2 “terminating” platforms would need to be rebuilt into “though” platforms, while another 2 “though” platforms would have to be built to the east of the current station, this will mean that Blackfriars can no longer be considered a “rail terminus”

Blackfriars-City Thameslink section: Due to the enlargement of Blackfriars Station to accommodate another 2 platforms, 2 Puddle Dock will have to be demolished, along with 160 Queen Victoria Street (BNY Mellon Centre), Playhouse Yard (and the buildings north of it) and 15 Blackfriars Lane

Farrringdon: 39-41 Farringdon Road will have to be demolished to allow the building of an additional 2 platforms at Farringdon

5. People who work in the city might assassinate you. I mean, you've just replaced a very convenient, 6 platform Terminus, with many, many destinations in SE London and Kent and a Tube Station with, well, just a Tube station. You'd need significant improvements on the southern part of the Circle Line to shift all those passengers.

Is Blackfriars close enough to Cannon Street to compensate, if it is then the area will gain services from a bigger range of destinations in London + SE and the potential capacity problems on the Circle/District Line (which is extending its trains from 6-car to 7-car) can be fixed by extending the trains from 7-car to 8-car
 

joeykins82

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The Thameslink core is not bored tunnel; it is cut and cover in the places where it does run underground which it doesn't do throughout. Farringdon station is on the surface and there isn't space to just stick another couple of tracks alongside the existing pair.

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.520476,-0.10517&spn=0.004072,0.008111&t=w&z=17&lci=transit_comp

It's certainly interesting to perform "what if" exercises but the majority of your suggestions are physically and/or commercially unviable.
 

mr_jrt

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The Thameslink core is not bored tunnel; it is cut and cover in the places where it does run underground which it doesn't do throughout. Farringdon station is on the surface and there isn't space to just stick another couple of tracks alongside the existing pair.

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.520476,-0.10517&spn=0.004072,0.008111&t=w&z=17&lci=transit_comp

It's certainly interesting to perform "what if" exercises but the majority of your suggestions are physically and/or commercially unviable.

There would've been room at Farringdon had the planners not been so short-sighted. The building on Farringdon Street is on the site of the Met's original terminus, and laterly, it's goods yard.

Had they demolished the building and rebuilt it again with rail access and platforms at track level then it would have been an easy exercise to knock through to the Smithfield sidings and then you would have a four-track route, abet with a bottleneck between Smithfield sidings and Blackfriars which should have been resolved when they built City Thameslink...but oh well.
 
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