My misrecollection and Thameslink ticket

[sidharth]

Good afternoon. Hoping to have some advice. I was stopped by a Thameslink ticket officer today on the train. I have never had this happening to me in 16 years in the UK. I was travelling with my toddler from Streatham to Elephant & Castle. I was relaxed when she asked for my ticket. When I saw her from far away I didn't get off the train or ran away. I genuinely thought I was fine, that I had tapped my card. She tapped my debit card and it said declined. I was sure I had tapped it and immediately thought that this was an old issue I had with my card so I told her. When she saw that my start location did not even appear I started realising that I might have not tapped it at all but I remember very well taking my debit card out in front of the gate. My toddler was giving me a huge amount of stress and I must have just gone through the open gate absent-mindedly. My toddler moves in the buggy, doesn't want straps, I panic all the time that he may fall ( he underwent heart surgery and has a heart patch) etc. She gave me a ticket and said that they will write to me. I have recently moved into a refuge with my kids. I sometimes happen to forget things due to suffering from complex PTSD. Should I give them a GP's letter, supporter worker email or something written by my therapist that confirms my memory has been heavily affected by extensive trauma? I am already unwell after understanding what happened. What should I tell Thameslink? Should I just be truthful like I've been here? Please help. I'm drowning in anxiety.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Good afternoon. Hoping to have some advice. I was stopped by a Thameslink ticket officer today on the train. I have never had this happening to me in 16 years in the UK. I was travelling with my toddler from Streatham to Elephant & Castle. I was relaxed when she asked for my ticket. When I saw her from far away I didn't get off the train or ran away. I genuinely thought I was fine, that I had tapped my card. She tapped my debit card and it said declined. I was sure I had tapped it and immediately thought that this was an old issue I had with my card so I told her. When she saw that my start location did not even appear I started realising that I might have not tapped it at all but I remember very well taking my debit card out in front of the gate. My toddler was giving me a huge amount of stress and I must have just gone through the open gate absent-mindedly. My toddler moves in the buggy, doesn't want straps, I panic all the time that he may fall ( he underwent heart surgery and has a heart patch) etc. She gave me a ticket and said that they will write to me. I have recently moved into a refuge with my kids. I sometimes happen to forget things due to suffering from complex PTSD. Should I give them a GP's letter, supporter worker email or something written by my therapist that confirms my memory has been heavily affected by extensive trauma? I am already unwell after understanding what happened. What should I tell Thameslink? Should I just be truthful like I've been here? Please help. I'm drowning in anxiety.

Welcome to the forum!

Although it's not something you've said, please be assured that you won't be going to prison for this. The worst that can happen will be that Thameslink or the courts need you to pay some money to them.

You've already made a note in your post to us of what went on today: it might also be worth writing down anything else that happened as you may need to know it later.

Otherwise, there's nothing to do right now. Instead, you need to wait for the railway to write to you, which could be in a couple of days but could take several months.

When the railway do write, the letter will look quite frightening and may be headed something like 'Notice of intended prosecution'. It will be important to reply to that letter, but don't panic - if you read it closely you will see that the railway are giving you a chance to tell them your side of the story and they won't have decided yet on whether to take you to court.

It will be important when you reply to that letter to explain what went on: you will need to convince the railway that you won't get paying your fare wrong again. As long as they are happy about that, they are unlikely to take you to court, and given your personal circumstances they may be prepared to give you a warning. What's more normal though is that they charge you the full train fare, plus the cost of their investigation. So overall you may have to pay them up to £200.

Our usual suggestion is that when you get the letter from the railway, show it to us (with your personal details hidden) and we will help you write a reply. So we should be able to help you like that.

 

[Gloster]

You presumably gave them your correct name and address, but do make sure that if you change your address that you ensure that the letter will be redirected to your new address promptly. You will only have a few days to answer the letter once it arrives, so you should avoid delays.

 

[island]

When she saw that my start location did not even appear I started realising that I might have not tapped it at all

Start locations don't appear on inspection devices where a bank card is used, so I'm not sure why she would have observed it did not appear.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you can get something from your support worker or therapist about the difficulties you have had that may help to have ready for when you reply to the railway in due course as a mitigating point.

You can also ask your GP but I think GPs sometimes charge for such letters and you may not want to have to pay a charge.

It may be an idea to get such letters ready now because when the railway company write to you you have to reply in 14 days.

When you get a letter (probably in post hard copy so be sure to watch out for it) people here can help you with what to include in your reply.

 

[sidharth]

Welcome to the forum!

Although it's not something you've said, please be assured that you won't be going to prison for this. The worst that can happen will be that Thameslink or the courts need you to pay some money to them.

You've already made a note in your post to us of what went on today: it might also be worth writing down anything else that happened as you may need to know it later.

Otherwise, there's nothing to do right now. Instead, you need to wait for the railway to write to you, which could be in a couple of days but could take several months.

When the railway do write, the letter will look quite frightening and may be headed something like 'Notice of intended prosecution'. It will be important to reply to that letter, but don't panic - if you read it closely you will see that the railway are giving you a chance to tell them your side of the story and they won't have decided yet on whether to take you to court.

It will be important when you reply to that letter to explain what went on: you will need to convince the railway that you won't get paying your fare wrong again. As long as they are happy about that, they are unlikely to take you to court, and given your personal circumstances they may be prepared to give you a warning. What's more normal though is that they charge you the full train fare, plus the cost of their investigation. So overall you may have to pay them up to £200.

Our usual suggestion is that when you get the letter from the railway, show it to us (with your personal details hidden) and we will help you write a reply. So we should be able to help you like that.

Good afternoon and many many thanks for your kind reply. May I ask one more question, please? Is there a way I can have this letter sent to me sooner? The officer said within 4 weeks but it's a long time being in that limbo. I would do anything ro get it sooner.

 

[island]

Goof afternoon and many many thanks for your kind reply. May I ask one more question, please? Is there a way I can have this letter sent to me sooner? The officer said within 4 weeks but it's a long time being in that limbo. I would do anything ro get it sooner.

No, it will come when it comes. They are dealing with hundreds or even thousands of people. You will have to wait your turn.

 

[WesternLancer]

Goof afternoon and many many thanks for your kind reply. May I ask one more question, please? Is there a way I can have this letter sent to me sooner? The officer said within 4 weeks but it's a long time being in that limbo. I would do anything ro get it sooner.

No I don’t think there is really. There will be hundreds of cases like yours every week.

The only examples seen on here where it happens faster seem to be by people who employ a solicitor specialising in rail ticket evasion work. But you would have to be prepared to pay solicitors fees for that help so you have to weigh that up.

 

[AlterEgo]

Goof afternoon and many many thanks for your kind reply. May I ask one more question, please? Is there a way I can have this letter sent to me sooner? The officer said within 4 weeks but it's a long time being in that limbo. I would do anything ro get it sooner.

No. They have up to six months to initiate a court case against you or otherwise write to you, but they usually do take a few weeks in our experience.

 

[sidharth]

You presumably gave them your correct name and address, but do make sure that if you change your address that you ensure that the letter will be redirected to your new address promptly. You will only have a few days to answer the letter once it arrives, so you should avoid delays.

Thank you for your reply.

If you can get something from your support worker or therapist about the difficulties you have had that may help to have ready for when you reply to the railway in due course as a mitigating point.

You can also ask your GP but I think GPs sometimes charge for such letters and you may not want to have to pay a charge.

It may be an idea to get such letters ready now because when the railway company write to you you have to reply in 14 days.

When you get a letter (probably in post hard copy so be sure to watch out for it) people here can help you with what to include in your reply.

Thank you very much. If you don't mind me asking, can't just I contact them by email?

 

[John R]

Thank you for your reply.

Thank you very much. If you don't mind me asking, can't just I contact them by email?

No, you have to wait. GTR (Thameslink) actively discourages you to contact them about cases by email, and says that it will delete any that do anything other than provide evidence of a forgotten railcard or details of a change of address.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your reply.

Thank you very much. If you don't mind me asking, can't just I contact them by email?

Unfortunately i believe their website says do not do this as per post #11

 

[kacper]

Side note, is it not the case that revenue inspection devices don’t actually know if a card was tapped in and only if it’s valid for travel? There’s a chance that OP did tap in and the gate opened, then there was an issue with the payment that made the card get blocked?

 

[Hadders]

If what you've told us is correct, then I'm not sure your should have been issued with a ticket irregularity report.

Contactless works a bt different to normal tickets. The inspector cannot see whether or not you have touched in. When an inspection happens onboard the train your card is scanned and overnight the touch in times are reconciled in the back office server. If the card is touched in before the inspection took place then the inspection is passed and nothing else happens. If there is no touch in before the onboard inspection then the inspection failes and you're charged a maximum fare. If three (I think it's three) inspections are failed then the card is blocked from further use for travel in the contactless area.

It would be useful to know if you could tell us if you have failed revenue inspection onboard before (as I think the inspector would be able to see if a card is blocked)
Can you download your journey history from the TfL website and let us know what it says.

I'm tagging @MikeWh in to this as he might be able to provide further insight.

 

[furlong]

First you need to gather all the facts.

From your bank, make a list of all the charges for this travel over a short period covering the day this happened - a few payments before and a few payments after. Note if your balance was too low at some points so payments would get declined.

Log on to the TfL website and register your card. Obtain the record of everything it shows over the same period.

Then you need to match the two up, understand everything that happened, how all the charges were calculated, and look for any anomalies such as incomplete journeys or declined payments. We can help with this if you share the information.

Did you use the debit card directly, or have it on your phone e.g. Google/Apple Pay?

(Depending what you find, you might need to contact your bank to obtain more information.)

 

[Idiotic]

If what you've told us is correct, then I'm not sure your should have been issued with a ticket irregularity report.

Contactless works a bt different to normal tickets. The inspector cannot see whether or not you have touched in. When an inspection happens onboard the train your card is scanned and overnight the touch in times are reconciled in the back office server. If the card is touched in before the inspection took place then the inspection is passed and nothing else happens. If there is no touch in before the onboard inspection then the inspection failes and you're charged a maximum fare. If three (I think it's three) inspections are failed then the card is blocked from further use for travel in the contactless area.

It would be useful to know if you could tell us if you have failed revenue inspection onboard before (as I think the inspector would be able to see if a card is blocked)
Can you download your journey history from the TfL website and let us know what it says.

I'm tagging @MikeWh in to this as he might be able to provide further insight.

The RID does tell if a card has been blocked by the back office for whatever reason. This could be either there’s a bounced outstanding fare or failed the previous inspection 3 times.

If it’s active, it just inspects the card and makes a note that it’s been checked

Pretty much as you’ve said.

—

Unfortunately you’ve either forgot to tap in or you’ve tapped in and it’s rejected it (red light / bleeps) and you’ve not noticed. As others have said I wouldn’t contact them until you hear back it’s not going to help or change the situation now.

 

[sidharth]

No, it will come when it comes. They are dealing with hundreds or even thousands of people. You will have to wait your turn.

Hellos and thanks. I have never failed inspection in 16 years in this country. I

If what you've told us is correct, then I'm not sure your should have been issued with a ticket irregularity report.

Contactless works a bt different to normal tickets. The inspector cannot see whether or not you have touched in. When an inspection happens onboard the train your card is scanned and overnight the touch in times are reconciled in the back office server. If the card is touched in before the inspection took place then the inspection is passed and nothing else happens. If there is no touch in before the onboard inspection then the inspection failes and you're charged a maximum fare. If three (I think it's three) inspections are failed then the card is blocked from further use for travel in the contactless area.

It would be useful to know if you could tell us if you have failed revenue inspection onboard before (as I think the inspector would be able to see if a card is blocked)
Can you download your journey history from the TfL website and let us know what it says.

I'm tagging @MikeWh in to this as he might be able to provide further insight.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

Hello and thanks. I have never failed inspection in 16 years. On this occasion I forgot to tap it.

 

[johnny_t]

With things like tapping in, where it is almost an automatic action, it can be hard to remember if you've done it or not. In the same way that you initially believed that you had tapped in, you are now convincing yourself that you must have forgotten whereas, to be honest, either could be true.

I don't know if this is feasible, but is it possible to get CCTV now, as that can be the only way to be certain of what you did at the gate ? I'm not sure how long it stays on file, but it would be a shame for it to be deleted before you need it.

 

[sidharth]

With things like tapping in, where it is almost an automatic action, it can be hard to remember if you've done it or not. In the same way that you initially believed that you had tapped in, you are now convincing yourself that you must have forgotten whereas, to be honest, either could be true.

I don't know if this is feasible, but is it possible to get CCTV now, as that can be the only way to be certain of what you did at the gate ? I'm not sure how long it stays on file, but it would be a shame for it to be deleted before you need it.

Thank you very much. I remember well taking out my debit card at the gates ready to pay then getting distracted and rushing to the get the lift anxious not to miss the train as I was getting late for my toddler's nursery start time ( settling period ). I am sure I did not tap because after careful thinking I couldn't remember the sound of tapping my card.

 

[John R]

If you didn’t tap then it’s a fairly straightforward case, and the advice given in the second post is probably the best summary of what will happen and what you need to do.

when you get the letter I would explain that you were distracted with child as explanation - it may not alter the outcome, but at least it shows them that it wasnt deliberate and you are not a habitual fare dodger.

 

[sidharth]

Thank you for that. My worry is to get a criminal conviction over this or being sent to prison. Had it not been for this website I would have already had a heart attack.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum!

Although it's not something you've said, please be assured that you won't be going to prison for this. The worst that can happen will be that Thameslink or the courts need you to pay some money to them.

You've already made a note in your post to us of what went on today: it might also be worth writing down anything else that happened as you may need to know it later.

Otherwise, there's nothing to do right now. Instead, you need to wait for the railway to write to you, which could be in a couple of days but could take several months.

When the railway do write, the letter will look quite frightening and may be headed something like 'Notice of intended prosecution'. It will be important to reply to that letter, but don't panic - if you read it closely you will see that the railway are giving you a chance to tell them your side of the story and they won't have decided yet on whether to take you to court.

It will be important when you reply to that letter to explain what went on: you will need to convince the railway that you won't get paying your fare wrong again. As long as they are happy about that, they are unlikely to take you to court, and given your personal circumstances they may be prepared to give you a warning. What's more normal though is that they charge you the full train fare, plus the cost of their investigation. So overall you may have to pay them up to £200.

Our usual suggestion is that when you get the letter from the railway, show it to us (with your personal details hidden) and we will help you write a reply. So we should be able to help you like that.

Thank you very much. My fear was exactly this, to go to prison or to get a CR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2024 ==

If what you've told us is correct, then I'm not sure your should have been issued with a ticket irregularity report.

Contactless works a bt different to normal tickets. The inspector cannot see whether or not you have touched in. When an inspection happens onboard the train your card is scanned and overnight the touch in times are reconciled in the back office server. If the card is touched in before the inspection took place then the inspection is passed and nothing else happens. If there is no touch in before the onboard inspection then the inspection failes and you're charged a maximum fare. If three (I think it's three) inspections are failed then the card is blocked from further use for travel in the contactless area.

It would be useful to know if you could tell us if you have failed revenue inspection onboard before (as I think the inspector would be able to see if a card is blocked)
Can you download your journey history from the TfL website and let us know what it says.

I'm tagging @MikeWh in to this as he might be able to provide further insight.

Hello. I never failed inspection before.

 

[furlong]

It is not as simple as you think - you are saying the inspector on a train found the card DECLINED and you need to find the reason for this from the bank and TfL statements. What you described is NOT caused (directly) by failing to tap in on that occasion. (Rarely, it can be caused by actually tapping in.)

 

[zero]

If you haven't already, go to the TfL website and obtain your journey history for your debit card to see what taps were recorded.

Do you have more than one card, or do you use your phone to pay for things and is it possible that you tapped a different card/phone to the one you presented for inspection?

Also I presume you made a return journey - how did you pay for that? Whether or not you paid for the initial journey, if the card was declined at an inspection then it should not have been usable on a subsequent journey.

 

[sidharth]

Welcome to the forum!

Although it's not something you've said, please be assured that you won't be going to prison for this. The worst that can happen will be that Thameslink or the courts need you to pay some money to them.

You've already made a note in your post to us of what went on today: it might also be worth writing down anything else that happened as you may need to know it later.

Otherwise, there's nothing to do right now. Instead, you need to wait for the railway to write to you, which could be in a couple of days but could take several months.

When the railway do write, the letter will look quite frightening and may be headed something like 'Notice of intended prosecution'. It will be important to reply to that letter, but don't panic - if you read it closely you will see that the railway are giving you a chance to tell them your side of the story and they won't have decided yet on whether to take you to court.

It will be important when you reply to that letter to explain what went on: you will need to convince the railway that you won't get paying your fare wrong again. As long as they are happy about that, they are unlikely to take you to court, and given circumstances they may be prepared to give you a warning. What's more normal though is that they charge you the full train fare, plus the cost of their investigation. So overall you may have to pay them up to £200.

Our usual suggestion is that when you get the letter from the railway, show it to us (with your personal details hidden) and we will help you write a reply. So we should be able to help you like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2024 ==

Good afternoon, I have received the Summons today to plead guilty or not guilty. Govia had sent a letter to my previous address after I had notified them in writing that I no longer lived there. My previous address, a refuge, said that they never received any letters and I find this so strange. I spoke with Govia today and they asked me to send them an email with a letter of what had happened that day. I will reply as advised but will they be able to stop court proceedings? Happy New Year and thank you so much.

 

[30907]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2024 ==

Good afternoon, I have received the Summons today to plead guilty or not guilty. Govia had sent a letter to my previous address after I had notified them in writing that I no longer lived there. My previous address, a refuge, said that they never received any letters and I find this so strange. I spoke with Govia today and they asked me to send them an email with a letter of what had happened that day. I will reply as advised but will they be able to stop court proceedings? Happy New Year and thank you so much.

Hi and thanks for the update. Don't panic!

GTR will very likely be willing to settle out of court if you respond apologetically and briefly. See posts by @Hadders suggesting points to make, but certainly tell them about your change of address and the fact that you told them about it!

if you could post a (redacted) copy of the summons, so we can know what GTR are saying, what law/byelaw is involved etc, that would help us give more advice. And feel free to post your draft reply for us to comment.

 

[WesternLancer]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2024 ==

Good afternoon, I have received the Summons today to plead guilty or not guilty. Govia had sent a letter to my previous address after I had notified them in writing that I no longer lived there. My previous address, a refuge, said that they never received any letters and I find this so strange. I spoke with Govia today and they asked me to send them an email with a letter of what had happened that day. I will reply as advised but will they be able to stop court proceedings? Happy New Year and thank you so much.

Get advice on what you reply with from people here before sending anything to them to get what you need to say as good as it can be to avoid the matter escalating to prosecution which is likely to be able to prevent with help from here.

 

[sidharth]

Hi and thanks for the update. Don't panic!

GTR will very likely be willing to settle out of court if you respond apologetically and briefly. See posts by @Hadders suggesting points to make, but certainly tell them about your change of address and the fact that you told them about it!

if you could post a (redacted) copy of the summons, so we can know what GTR are saying, what law/byelaw is involved etc, that would help us give more advice. And feel free to post your draft reply for us to comment.

Good afternoon and Happy New Year.
Thanks for your kind reply, time and dedication.
I have attached the Witness Statement filled by the Govia's officer who stopped me and my reply to Govia would be as follows:



Dear Prosecutor

Re: GT Prosecution Case No: ****************

I am writing to you in response to the Summons dated 30/12/2024.

On 29/08/24, I was issued a Witness Statement Receipt with reference No. **************

On Friday the 15/10/24 I emailed you my change of address.

You informed me on the phone that your notice of Intention to Prosecute letter was sent on the 23/10/24 to my previous address, **********************, which was the refuge where I was living.

The refuge told me that they never received any letters addressed to me. Please, find attached their letter (Exhibit 1) confirming that.

I only received the Single Justice Procedure Notice to my current address on 30/12/24.

I am very grateful to have the opportunity to explain what happened on 29/08/24 now after informing you that I never received your letter.

On 29/08/24 I was living in a refuge and rushing to the train station to take my 2 years old to his nursery in ************. It was the first day of his settling period and I was late. When I arrived at ******* Train Station my son was throwing a tantrum, screaming whilst struggling through the buggy’s straps and chucking his toys around.

I would normally top up my Oyster Card at ****** Station, but as my son was being unruly, I knew it would be difficult for me to do so at the fare machine, so I chose to use my debit card as a reliable solution.

I remember rushing through the open gate using my debit card as my train was about to arrive. I was very distracted by my toddler’s tantrums and worried he might launch his cars at other members of the public, as well as suddenly getting off the buggy in a busy station. My son has a patch in his heart, and I live in constant fear that he may fall and hit his chest.

When I noticed the ticket officers I was in **** Hill, four stops before my final destination. Had I knowingly intended to skip the fare I would have had enough time to get off the train and avoid being questioned by the officers. However, not only did I stay but also waited for them to approach me and give them my debit card. I was confident that my fare had been paid by the debit card so when the officer asked me why payment was not appearing I assumed it could be my bank since on other occasions my debit card had not worked on the bus and train.

I contacted Barclays Bank, and they said that my debit card had been declined due to reasons explained in Exhibit 2. I still do not know why my card was declined by the issuer as I had funds in it and it was not frozen.

It was a difficult time, I was very absent minded due to being in a refuge with my two kids, suffering from complex PTSD. My hippocampus has shrunk due to trauma affecting my memory and concentration and my anxiety levels were significantly high. See Exhibit 1.

In 16 years of living in this country, I have always paid my fares and never committed any crimes. I am incredibly mortified for the inconvenience that deeply embarrasses me.

I am and was well aware of the consequences of not paying a fare.

If I were to go to court, I would have to disclose again the particulars of my mental health and circumstances. This would be extremely triggering for me. I never intended to skip a fare and have never had this issue before.

I would be enormously grateful to settle this matter outside court. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare and all your administrative and legal costs in dealing with this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you.



Kind regards,

******* *********



Exhibit 1 and 3 is a letter from the refuge explaining my circumstances, and mental health and that they never received any letters for me.

Exhibit 2 is an email from Barclays saying that my card had been declined by the card issuer.



T H A N K Y O U !!!!!!

 

[furlong]

Have you been in touch with TfL to obtain a full explanation of the history of this card?

Specifically you need to obtain from them their record of the status of this card at the time you touched in.

I.e. Was the card accepted as valid at the time you touched in or was the card rejected (but you didn't realise)?

Secondly, has the card been used successfully subsequently and was the cost of the journey recouped from it later?

 

[sidharth]

They said that the card was not ready to be used for travel as there was an issue that had to be solved first. The issue could have been that my debit card had been previously frozen and failed to make a payment at the off licence that morning. It is likely that payment didnt go through when I unfroze it at the station because of that and since the gate was already opened I assumed I had paid. There was a lot of people tapping around me and rushing. The card was rejected and I did not realise. The cost was not recouped and I was able to use the card later.

 

[furlong]

You need to find out whether or not the card was accepted for travel when you touched in. Get that information directly from TfL (or work it out with information from your bank about the time they gave the Decline message to TfL and the time you know you touched in). The way the system works, it is possible that the Decline message happened DURING your journey following a successful touch in. The train company's evidence needs to address this by telling the court the TIME it was declined and confirming that the touch in actually did fail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

You don't mention the charge, but they normally prosecute under a byelaw for BOARDING a train without a valid ticket. I.e. whether or not the touch-in was successful is critical information. We have seen cases before where cards are accepted for travel at the start of a journey but then blocked shortly afterwards but the prosecutions department doesn't understand this can happen.