My ideas for Caldervale services

[Waverley125]

The Caldervale line is, to my mind, one of the most interesting in the country. It is hugely scenic, connects several small towns together, has a good deal of freight, but also serves as both a long-distance intercity and short-distance urban commuter railway.

Considering the line as three section (West, East & Central) you have three simple areas:

WEST

Blackpool North-Manchester Vic via Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Todmorden & Rochdale

CENTRAL

Todmorden-Halifax/Brighouse

EASTERN

Leeds-Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange, Halifax & Brighouse

currently there are a mixture of services, these being

1tph York-Blackpool North
1tph Leeds-Manchester Vic via Dewsbury & Brighouse
1tph Selby-Manchester Vic
1tph Leeds-Manchester Vic via Halifax
1tph Selby-Wakefield Westgate (the Grand Tour)

So, given the strategic nature of the line (TPE Diversions between Dewsbury & Manchester), I've had a think about how services could be rationalised.

1. Build Bradford Crossrail. This would allow Bradford-Huddersfield services to be run as extensions of the existing Forster Square-Ilkley/Skipton services.

2. Reopen the Bowling Curve & a new station at Bradford Wakefield Road. This would allow Leeds services to avoid the need to reverse at Bradford, saving at least 6 minutes off journey times. Run Leeds-Halifax trains as Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield

3. Install a turnback at Todmorden. With the extension of services out of Victoria to Burnley, there's no need for Todmorden's commuter services into Leeds to go all the way to Manchester. Turning back at Todmorden and re-routing via Brighouse would improve services to Dewsbury, Brighouse and the Caldervale towns.


4. Cut back Leeds-Victoria trains at Bradford, where they can be properly targeted as regional trains, i.e. 2 per hour calling Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale & Victoria.

5. Run through trains (i.e. York-Blackpool) via Shipley, giving connections in Airedale as well as avoiding the penalty for reversing.

 

[northwichcat]

Funding has been secured for reinstating the Todmorden Curve so a new Victoria-Burnley service is now very likely.

The Northern Hub proposals suggest an additional Halifax-Leeds train every hour as well as the Victoria-Burnley via Rochdale service.

 

[bluenoxid]

Rationalised???

My worry is that if you suggested expansion you would perform a Serpell???

 

[Waverley125]

I'd hope to eventually see something like this on the Caldervale:

2tph Colne-Blackburn via Manchester Vic (all stops)

2tph Wigan-Rochdale via Manchester Vic (all stops)

2tph Manchester Vic-Bradford (Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby Bridge, Halifax)

1tph Blackpool North-Scarborough (Poulton, Preston, Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley MR, Hebden Bridge, Halifax, Bradford, Shipley, Leeds, Garforth)

2tph Todmorden-Leeds (Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Sowerby Bridge, Elland, Brighouse, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, White Rose Centre, Cottingley)

2tph Airedale-Huddersfield (Bradford, Low Moor, Hipperholme, Halifax, Elland, Brighouse, Deighton)

2tph Leeds-Huddersfield (Armley Moor, Bramley, New Pudsey, Laisterdyke, Bradford Wakefield Road, Low Moor, Hipperholme, Halifax, Elland, Brighouse, Deighton)

2tph Leeds-Leeds via Bradford (Armley Moor, Bramley, New Pudsey, Laisterdyke, Bradford, Manningham, Frizinghall, Shipley, Idle, Apperley Bridge, Calverley Parkway, Kirkstall Forge, Kirkstall Brewery, Armley Canal Rd, Leeds)

 

[tbtc]

(ignoring any ideas about reopening old lines/ building lots of new stations etc and not particularly worrying about destinations east of Leeds/ west of Manchester)

• I think that Leeds - Bradford Interchange is capable of sustaining six trains an hour. I think that Rochdale - Manchester Victoria is capable of sustaining six trains an hour. The question is what to do with the middle bit... (you've got the Brighouse/Dewsbury line to the south east, the Brighouse/Huddersfield line to the south west, the Burnley line to the north west - how do you serve these best?)
  
• The Calder Valley frequencies suggest that this would be a good line for electrification, though the tough terrain would make this more complicated than the likes of the GWML. Hopefully it's high up the list of potential routes for CP6.
  
• Bradford - Huddersfield would work best as a stand-alone shuttle. However it's too long for one unit to work it, and there'd be far too much layover time to justify two units, so it will invariable be coupled to other services - hence the "Grand Tour".
  
• You'll never compete with the Huddersfield line for Leeds - Manchester times, but there ought to be some effort made for Bradford - Manchester to have some competative timings.

 

[apk55]

If Bradford cross rail was built I would expect the Calder valley services to continue to Leeds via Shipley and the Air Valley. Without a reversal there would be little time difference from the current timings. Their place on the line to Leeds via Pudsley would be taken by extending the Bradford to Skipton/Ilkley services to Leeds. As a result very few trains would terminate or reverse at Bradford and I would suggest that a 4 platform (all long and reversible) station would be adequate. Reopening the Bowling curve may save a few minuets for Leeds passengers but cause problems for Bradford passengers.

 

[bluenoxid]

(ignoring any ideas about reopening old lines/ building lots of new stations etc and not particularly worrying about destinations east of Leeds/ west of Manchester)

• I think that Leeds - Bradford Interchange is capable of sustaining six trains an hour. I think that Rochdale - Manchester Victoria is capable of sustaining six trains an hour. The question is what to do with the middle bit... (you've got the Brighouse/Dewsbury line to the south east, the Brighouse/Huddersfield line to the south west, the Burnley line to the north west - how do you serve these best?)
  
• The Calder Valley frequencies suggest that this would be a good line for electrification, though the tough terrain would make this more complicated than the likes of the GWML. Hopefully it's high up the list of potential routes for CP6.
  
• Bradford - Huddersfield would work best as a stand-alone shuttle. However it's too long for one unit to work it, and there'd be far too much layover time to justify two units, so it will invariable be coupled to other services - hence the "Grand Tour".
  
• You'll never compete with the Huddersfield line for Leeds - Manchester times, but there ought to be some effort made for Bradford - Manchester to have some competative timings.

Well Bradford - Huddersfield could be extended to either Leeds (both ends) or Manchester (as a stopper)

Personally, I think there are plenty of options with the services as long as there are trains available. The problem with the route is going to be that a lot of the connecting routes are going to be electrified. I think the Calder Valley offers opportunities to create different journey opportunities (Hull, Blackpool, Blackburn, Scarborough, Wakefield, Kirkby, Wigan, Southport) that should be investigated. The current service structure should only be used as a potential option, not the guide.

 

[Waverley125]

If Crossrail were built, the Huddersfield shuttle would be the end of the existing trains from Skipton & Ilkley.

I think the scheme would be made better by adding the re-opening of Wakefield Kirkgate-Bradford via Heckmondwike, Liversedge and Cleckheaton as well.

So 1tph Ilkley-Wakefield, 1tph Ilkley-Huddersfield, 1tph Skipton-Wakefield and 1tph Skipton-Huddersfield.

Leeds-Bradford can sustain 6tph, but the services would be much better patronised were intermediate stations reopened. Not a problem on the New Pudsey line, but on the Shipley line it basically requires four-tracking. It'd then be nice to have a half-hourly 'Bradford flyer' from Leeds, calling only at Shipley & New Pudsey on its way round the Bradford Loop.

I think we can all agree though, with the intensity of services and gradients, it's a prime candidate for electrification, especially as it's almost a network in itself. I mean, any electrification would almost certainly be: (In addition to what's already announced)

Preston-Leeds
Kirkham & Wesham-Blackpool South
Rose Grove-Colne
Sowerby Bridge-Deighton
Halifax-Mirfield
Todmorden-Manchester Victoria

 

[tbtc]

Well Bradford - Huddersfield could be extended to either Leeds (both ends) or Manchester (as a stopper)

Personally, I think there are plenty of options with the services as long as there are trains available. The problem with the route is going to be that a lot of the connecting routes are going to be electrified. I think the Calder Valley offers opportunities to create different journey opportunities (Hull, Blackpool, Blackburn, Scarborough, Wakefield, Kirkby, Wigan, Southport) that should be investigated. The current service structure should only be used as a potential option, not the guide.

Fair points. I think that a Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Brighouse - Huddersfield service is okay (as it combines a Leeds - Halifax service with a Bradford - Huddersfield one), it just feels like the kind of route that would be a (Bradford - Huddersfield) shuttle if you could get away with one unit.

With TPE electrification there's maybe potential for some longer distance services to be diverted via the Calder Valley (i.e. to give Middlesbrough/ Scarborough some direct Manchester service rather than running one all the way under the wires through Huddersfield).

 

[Welshman]

I would like to see a Bradford Interchange-Huddersfield shuttle joined-up with the Huddersfield-Sheffield via Penistone service, to recreate a Bradford -Sheffield service as used to run of old[albeit then with a change at Penistone]. I think there is a crossover in Huddersfield tunnel allowing access to/from the Penistone line to/from platforms 1 & 4 to allow this.

Concerning services between Leeds & Bradford Interchange, would there be any chance of reinstating the Pudsey loop, or has the trackbed been lost completely? That area seems more built-up now than it was in the 1960s, when Greenside and Lowtown stations were closed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Concerning services between Leeds & Bradford Interchange, would there be any chance of reinstating the Pudsey loop, or has the trackbed been lost completely? That area seems more built-up now than it was in the 1960s, when Greenside and Lowtown stations were closed.

The area where Pudsey Greenside station was situated is now occupied by industrial units. Any idea when there was last a condition survey in recent times on the Greenside Tunnel?

 

[billio]

The area where Pudsey Greenside station was situated is now occupied by industrial units. Any idea when there was last a condition survey in recent times on the Greenside Tunnel?

You might find what you want in this discussion

http://www.secretleeds.com/forum/Messages.aspx?ThreadID=298&StartAtMessage=75

 

[Waverley125]

I would like to see a Bradford Interchange-Huddersfield shuttle joined-up with the Huddersfield-Sheffield via Penistone service, to recreate a Bradford -Sheffield service as used to run of old[albeit then with a change at Penistone]. I think there is a crossover in Huddersfield tunnel allowing access to/from the Penistone line to/from platforms 1 & 4 to allow this.

Concerning services between Leeds & Bradford Interchange, would there be any chance of reinstating the Pudsey loop, or has the trackbed been lost completely? That area seems more built-up now than it was in the 1960s, when Greenside and Lowtown stations were closed.

I don't know about the tunnel, but Tyersal embankment is still there, and the cutting out to the line at Bramley has been filled in with spoil & low-rise social housing. However the alignment is now blocked by the industrial estate at Bramley & the Stanningley bypass. On SSC it's been suggested that what's left would work well as tram/trolleybus line, potentially diverging from a Leeds-Bradford line along Stanningley Rd at Bramley station.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Nobody ever mentions Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Colne [SELRAP] Skipton, Leeds - do they? 11 miles of new track on a protected formation, and double the bit from Gannow to Colne. Double throughout. Electified. An easily graded connection between east and west coast electified main lines. Why not? Takes some of the pressure off those busy west yorkshire lines. Waverley 125 - Re-cast your plans with this in view. The more we talk about it the better!

 

[Whistler40145]

I would like to know whether the Blackpool to York service has sufficient passenger loadings for the Halifax-Bradford Interchange-Leeds section? If not, then route it via Mirfield?

Didn't the Blackpool North service previously serve Scarborough?

If it did, why was it cut back to York?

 

[tbtc]

Nobody ever mentions Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Colne [SELRAP] Skipton, Leeds - do they? 11 miles of new track on a protected formation, and double the bit from Gannow to Colne. Double throughout. Electified. An easily graded connection between east and west coast electified main lines. Why not? Takes some of the pressure off those busy west yorkshire lines. Waverley 125 - Re-cast your plans with this in view. The more we talk about it the better!

It gets mentioned on here a great deal, considering how unimportant it would be as a link (diverting services away from the "busy West Yorkshire lines" by sticking them through the congested Shipley route?).

Didn't the Blackpool North service previously serve Scarborough?

If it did, why was it cut back to York?

To give more Scarborough - Manchester services when TPE was split from the "local" ATN/ Northern service (not for any real passenger demand from Scarborough to Manchester or to Blackpool, just to tidy up route patterns)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To give more Scarborough - Manchester services when TPE was split from the "local" ATN/ Northern service (not for any real passenger demand from Scarborough to Manchester or to Blackpool, just to tidy up route patterns)

Would you feel that the existing Liverpool to Scarborough TPE service has been a success as such ?

 

[tbtc]

Would you feel that the existing Liverpool to Scarborough TPE service has been a success as such ?

Like other TPE services it's a combination of various "local" flows - you'll get plenty of people travelling from Scarborough to Leeds (for example) - but not enough going "coast to coast" to make much difference (at the Scarborough end) in whether the western end of the route is Blackpool or Liverpool.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I would like to know whether the Blackpool to York service has sufficient passenger loadings for the Halifax-Bradford Interchange-Leeds section? If not, then route it via Mirfield?

Halifax-Leeds from experience is far and away the busiest section of the whole route, it fills up just about every train eastbound in the morning. It and Bradford also get a lot of through passengers from Preston and East Lancashire, particularly from the Asian population of both areas (which are among the highest in Britain) - although it would save time via Dewsbury, I think loadings may fall, and would just force people onto the already busy Manchester Victoria-Leeds services at Hebden Bridge. Also by rerouteing it there's no advantage for York signallers as both the Dewsbury and Bradford Interchange lines arrive from the same direction into the station.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks for that info. I was only interested as its a few years since I last travelled on this service & wondered what the loadings were like on that section.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I just wish somebody would provide a fast through service from Bradford to Liverpool (or Chester).

I travel from Ellesmere Port to Bradford regularly and would love to use the train. But it takes almost four hours door to door on slow local services which stop at every little settlement (particularly coming back in the evening).

About 10-15 years ago there were through services from Bradford to Lime Street but these were taken off because the three PTEs couldn't agree on what class of DMU to use. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Wath Yard]

Blackpool - York has healthy loadings for the entire journey, which is why the units were strengthened to 3 cars. Halifax - Bradford - Leeds is a particularly busy section. I don't recall the service ever being extended to Scarboro.

What is Bradford Crossrail? Has this concept ever existed or is it an invention of this thread? Whatever it is it isn't going to happen.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Blackpool - York has healthy loadings for the entire journey, which is why the units were strengthened to 3 cars. Halifax - Bradford - Leeds is a particularly busy section. I don't recall the service ever being extended to Scarboro.

What is Bradford Crossrail? Has this concept ever existed or is it an invention of this thread? Whatever it is it isn't going to happen.

The Scarborough extensions existed on Blackpool North-York services until Northern Rail and TPE replaced Arriva Trains Northern / First North Western in early 2004, when Scarboorugh transferred to the new TPE network to / from Liverpool.

Bradford Crossrail has been considered officially plenty of times by various bodies, however it's very complex and as such horrendously expensive: I too think it'll probably never happen, however it certainly isn't a rumour started on here!

 

[ainsworth74]

What is Bradford Crossrail?

A plan to link the two major Bradford stations.

 

[Wath Yard]

Bradford hasn't got any major stations, let alone two.

As there is currently a £1/2 billion project for the north called Northern Hub and this isn't included it ain't going to happen and never will.

 

[ainsworth74]

Bradford hasn't got any major stations, let alone two.

Crikey I would have thought it's obvious that I wasn't talking about them with the railway taken as a whole? In the grand scheme of things they aren't major stations (though with both having passenger usage figures of 2m they aren't small halts either) but in the context of Bradford? They're the major stations.

Either way Bradford Crossrail is the proposal to link Interchange with Forster Square.

As there is currently a £1/2 billion project for the north called Northern Hub and this isn't included it ain't going to happen and never will.

Quite. It would probably be quite useful, but it ain't going to happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either way Bradford Crossrail is the proposal to link Interchange with Forster Square.

Yes, it is indeed unfortunate that this particular "Crossrail" project is rather less of a railway system priority than the other somewhat grandiose "Crossrail" project in a certain city "down south".

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'd say that's because it is somewhat less of a priority! (London) Crossrail is absolutely imperative in my eyes, alongside Thameslink, the Northern Hub, EGIP etc. Bradford Crossrail is in a lower bracket, sort of long-term projects that will be hard to justify and aren't salient in comparison to others.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd say that's because it is somewhat less of a priority!

A most deserved rebuke to my attempt to try to play "word-play" with the term "Crossrail" in a posting at this time of the night....Consider me to be suitably admonished..

 

[Welshman]

I just wish somebody would provide a fast through service from Bradford to Liverpool (or Chester).

I travel from Ellesmere Port to Bradford regularly and would love to use the train. But it takes almost four hours door to door on slow local services which stop at every little settlement (particularly coming back in the evening).

About 10-15 years ago there were through services from Bradford to Lime Street but these were taken off because the three PTEs couldn't agree on what class of DMU to use. You couldn't make it up.

I think there's been some talk of extending the Calder Valley services to Chester if North Wales and Chester services are diverted back to Manchester Victoria in the proposals for the Manchester Hub.

One of the effects of concentrating all major inter-city flows on Manchester Piccadilly over the last 20 years or so has been the down-grading of services into Victoria to "local" or "all-stops" services, although that is now beginnning to be reversed by the recent reintroduction of a semi-fast Calder Valley service.

Lets hope those are extended to Chester/Liverpool, for I agree with you that a journey from, say, North Wales/Liverpool to Halifax or Bradford can be achieved in half the time of rail by the M60/62 motorways, but I'd much prefer to sit in comfort on a train than battle it out in the rush hour on the M62!

I can remember when you could get from Bradford Exchange to Liverpool Exchange every 2 hours in just under 2 hours. But that was way back in 1962, with the introduction of the Cl.110 dmus!