My ideas for a Metro for Exeter.

[HilversumNS]

Typically undergrounds are only underground in the city centre (Glasgow being a bit of an exception), so how much is underground tends to depend on the size of the city centre. I don't know Newcastle well, but Liverpool city centre is very compact. Though by a German sense Merseyrail is more of an S-Bahn (heavy rail) than an U-Bahn (light rail).

I think the point I was trying to make (badly) was that an underground system, as we see it in the UK is similar to Glasgow and London. Other systems, be they metro, heavy/light rail etc may well have parts actually under the ground, but are not what we would normally call 'underground.'

If only we could dig lots of nice cheap tunnels, we'd have none of the fuss like Anti-HS2, except for costs. Solve our crowded motorway problems too.

 

[Railfan2156]

All of these arguments of populartion need to include Exmouth, Starcross etc. ass well as Exeter proper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the point I was trying to make (badly) was that an underground system, as we see it in the UK is similar to Glasgow and London. Other systems, be they metro, heavy/light rail etc may well have parts actually under the ground, but are not what we would normally call 'underground.'

If only we could dig lots of nice cheap tunnels, we'd have none of the fuss like Anti-HS2, except for costs. Solve our crowded motorway problems too.

You don't know all of my anti-HS2 arguments, do you. It is bad for the rail system, so go deal.

 

[TheGrew]

Surely somewhere like Exeter trams would make most sense with a more Manchester/Sheffield style setup.

 

[Rapidash]

Exeter is one of those places where you need to take the sum of its tentacles into the equation - there are distinct flows coming in from Plymouth, Exmouth, Teignbridge, Torbay, Mid and North Devon, with smaller numbers coming in from Dorset and Cornwall (I even find people from Taunton as well!)

You could easily argue that Exeter is a primary employment hub for the best part of a million people - its just that they are spread out over an area larger than the entirety of Yorkshire. Plymouth has a similar role, but mostly for the South Hams, Dartmoor and a vast chunk of Cornwall.

As for the hilarious Brixham proposal by Oliver...hahahahahahaha.

hahahahha

ha.

Best way to do anything would be to bribe the steam line to run a service down to Churston station, run a line from there down to Monks Bridge and have a Brixham Parkway type of station. It's the closest you;d get to the town without vast numbers of houses being demolished.

Unfortunately, there will be a number of landowners in the area to take on to do such a thing:

Dartmouth Steamboat and Railway Company
Churston Grammar School
Farmer Haddock
Several small holdings

The main issue will be Haddock, who was, again, recently elected as the chairman of the Torbay Tory association, owns vast amounts of land around here, and is usually dead set against any form of development what so ever. Vast amounts of money would be imvolved in getting him to cough up the land for any project.

 

[HilversumNS]

You don't know all of my anti-HS2 arguments, do you. It is bad for the rail system, so go deal.

I'd love (genuinly) to read them, but you will need to find a different thread.

*Deals a full house, aces over jacks. Can we keep it pleasant please?

 

[Deerfold]

Both of those have portions (<10%) which run underground, but the majority isn't, which is why I didn't include them.

Merseyrail: 75 miles of which 6.5 are underground
Newcastle Metro: 48 miles of which 4 are underground

The majority of London Underground is not underground.

 

[HilversumNS]

The majority of London Underground is not underground.

Very true, but it is still called the underground by many (or is that just me?) although it seems that TfL call it the Tube officially. It's a bit like hoover.

 

[Deerfold]

Very true, but it is still called the underground by many (or is that just me?) although it seems that TfL call it the Tube officially. It's a bit like hoover.

Indeed - but you were justifying not mentioning Liverpool or Newcastle because the majority of their track was not underground (but you had mentioned London and Glasgow).

Officially it's London Underground though sometimes it is referred to as the Tube. https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tfl-editorial-style-guide.pdf

 

[MarkyT]

As for the hilarious Brixham proposal by Oliver...hahahahahahaha.

. . . Best way to do anything would be to bribe the steam line to run a service down to Churston station, run a line from there down to Monks Bridge and have a Brixham Parkway type of station. It's the closest you;d get to the town without vast numbers of houses being demolished.

* WARNING - CRAYON ALERT *

At first sight Monksbridge looks like quite a good site as a heavy rail parkway railhead and it also has large numbers of houses within reasonable walking distance too, but it looks a steep rail incline up to Churston and there's not that much room for car parking. Gordon Oliver was talking more a tram-train type of operation which could go on-street for part of the way, have new level crossings on reserved sections, and exploit steeper gradients and sharper curves. A problem with tram-train is where would they go at the other end? All the way to Exeter I think probably not. From Torquay station however a short light rail extension could run across Torre Abbey Meadow then cross the main road on the level and run along the promenade to a terminus near the harbour.

I'm looking for an alternative alignment into central Brixham and preparing a sketch to illustrate. A brief description: Diverging from the Kingswear route before Churston, the new line would take a narrow strip of the golf course following Bascombe Road, then cross that road on the level to regain the old branch alignment. A Churston light rail station could be provided in that area. The old alignment would then be followed towards the Boundary Rd housing estate. Before reaching the housing it would turn left and strike out on a new course across the fields descending steeply into the little wooded valley that ends up at Fishcombe where it would fly across the beach (the bridge would have to be 'an exciting yet sensitive landmark structure') before diving into a short tunnel under the battery headland. The single line would then emerge again behind the Plymouth university building (old Astra Zenica site) and descend further on a ramped structure across the car parks to terminate near the fish market buildings. A big selling point of such a route, mostly off-street, would be the short reliable journey time across the bay, even in heavy summer traffic. Between Torquay and Paignton the service could stop at a couple of additional short tram only halts: Preston and Livermead perhaps. If such a Torquay Harbour to Brixham harbour service could be built I wouldn't extend the all day heavy rail service beyond Paignton as well during the summer, the single line from Goodrington to Churston would probabaly not not take it as well as the steam. I think there could be a case for some additional DMU trains to Kingswear outside the times the steam services operate, in the early morning and evenings. Outside the steam season the normal steam diagrams could be filled by DMUs, maybe extensions of the Exeter service every two hours or so. I would use high floor tram-train vehicles for the Brixham service so they could share heavy rail platforms at existing stations, and the new halts would have to be built to suit.

Not saying any of this could make a business case, but it would probably be a lot more more benefit than the subsidised so-called year-round fast ferry service!

 

[Rapidash]

You mean the semi-mythical all year fast ferry which as yet not made a single appearance, as its damn well not been built

 

[Camden]

Exeter is one of those places where you need to take the sum of its tentacles into the equation - there are distinct flows coming in from Plymouth, Exmouth, Teignbridge, Torbay, Mid and North Devon, with smaller numbers coming in from Dorset and Cornwall (I even find people from Taunton as well!)

You could easily argue that Exeter is a primary employment hub for the best part of a million people - its just that they are spread out over an area larger than the entirety of Yorkshire.

Well you always will take the tentacles into account - essentially you're talking Travel to Work Area, which is defined mathematically. A small city of 100,000 or so people just can't compare with a million+ city in terms of either "pull" or ability to sustain major infrastructure for itself.

Of the people who do commute to Exeter living in the large sparsely populated area surrounding the city they would only make use of transport to get to/from the city - not around it. And because their locations are so diffuse, even if in total they do add up to a million people living in that area, it couldn't merit anything more than a rural level of commuter service either.

The reason I say to look to the continent for more examples of making something useful out of public transport, is because other countries seem to be better at capitalising on and generating touristic use of infrastructure. So, something cost-effective that is really geared up to get hundreds of thousands of tourists about the place/county and likely to be used by them in droves, but which also has a handy dual purpose in being useful for local people (ideally to the point where it becomes the default mode of transport for them). This seems a more realistic proposition for a smaller city like Exeter, in its particular location, to pull off.

 

[monsento]

this is a great effort, nothing wrong with trying to suggest improvements, although possibly expensive id imagine the tram train concept would fit well into Devon.

 

[ExRes]

You mean the semi-mythical all year fast ferry which as yet not made a single appearance, as its damn well not been built

I think you'll find that the 'semi-mythical' fast ferry is actually so fast that it only appears not to have been built yet, it's actually so good that the HS7 stock for the new Rockfish International Station Brixham to Churston Gordon Oliver Interchange is being designed by the same award winning team at Scrapyard Challenge Plc

 

[iantherev]

I remember the Stagecoach ferry trial, noticeable for the fact that a portion of the cabin had been cordoned off due to a passenger being sick on the previous trip. With a fresh easterly wind it was lively to say the least. I returned on the bus.

 

[Rapidash]

I remember the Stagecoach ferry trial, noticeable for the fact that a portion of the cabin had been cordoned off due to a passenger being sick on the previous trip. With a fresh easterly wind it was lively to say the least. I returned on the bus.

Ayup! And you know why Stagecoach decided against carrying on with it? Because it didn't make any money at all!

I won't derail the thread much further with the details of mind numbing stupidity of Gordon Oliver, other than to say that £700,000 of taxpayers money has vanished into thin air for a vessel that was meant to have arrived last autumn, but has, as far as official channels are concerned, not even been registered as under construction yet.

 

[MarkyT]

Ayup! And you know why Stagecoach decided against carrying on with it? Because it didn't make any money at all!

I won't derail the thread much further with the details of mind numbing stupidity of Gordon Oliver, other than to say that £700,000 of taxpayers money has vanished into thin air for a vessel that was meant to have arrived last autumn, but has, as far as official channels are concerned, not even been registered as under construction yet.

Well just to continue the derailment a little further the operating company has been running a service over the winter using a vessel hired in from the river Exe, but at weekends that was already committed so the Torbay operation has been Monday to Friday only despite promised 7 day services. At first a special link bus was provided by Stagecoach to the nearest point possible to the breakwater whose far end the service is supposed to call at. That was cut back to the normal Strand stops after disappointing loadings of a big fat zero. A contact at the harbour (another summer only tourist ferry operator) tells me some days the vessel doesn't even bother to dock at the breakwater, as there are no passengers to board or alight. A great success clearly! Whilst he kept the project going, the concept wasn't Oliver's but the previous mayor, Nick Bye's. The subsidy was a European grant and is payable for the first three years of operation, after which the operator retains the concession to operate it at profit if they wish to. They won't though (surely?) so effectively the subsidy will have purchased them a brand new vessel (if and when it eventually arrives) which they will probably take away after three years to go and operate somewhere more profitable. To bring the subject sharply back to rail, another European grant has been subsidising half-hourly local services on the branch all day, but unfortunately not in the evening. I know which scheme has been the more successful for the travelling public!

 

[ExRes]

I know it's going slightly off piste, but, BBC are carrying a report today confirming that the South Devon Link Road will be opening on time in December, it looks to me to be a pretty good bit of engineering but I hadn't quite realised the size of the undertaking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-32866028

"The flyover bridge at Newton Abbot is 600m (2000ft) high ......."

Perhaps if these engineers could be transferred into a thinktank to solve Devon rail problems we could have the flyover extended to cover the whole county with high level railway line .........

 

[Rapidash]

Its been pretty impressive seeing it come together over the last few years. Ironically, the bridge over the Teign just past there is going to be suffering closure for the next six months for emergency repairs.... swings and roundabouts, eh!

 

[ExRes]

Its been pretty impressive seeing it come together over the last few years. Ironically, the bridge over the Teign just past there is going to be suffering closure for the next six months for emergency repairs.... swings and roundabouts, eh!

To be expected I guess, as someone who spent almost 6 years commuting by car from the Gatwick area to Wembley/Stonebridge Park/Harlesden/PRDC I'd be more than a little unsettled if I used roads without some closure or another

Personally I prefer to use the coast road if I'm heading to Exeter or further East, that's the lucky thing about being a miserable old pensioner now, I can travel without sweating on the time, perhaps I should buy a caravan ........

What made me smile about that BBC report was the 2000ft height of the flyover bridge, I believe, in modern parlance, that means you could fit 2 Shards under it and they say British engineering is dead ?

 

[iantherev]

I know it's going slightly off piste, but, BBC are carrying a report today confirming that the South Devon Link Road will be opening on time in December, it looks to me to be a pretty good bit of engineering but I hadn't quite realised the size of the undertaking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-32866028

"The flyover bridge at Newton Abbot is 600m (2000ft) high ......."

Perhaps if these engineers could be transferred into a thinktank to solve Devon rail problems we could have the flyover extended to cover the whole county with high level railway line .........

Did the reporter come from Babbacombe Model Village?

 

[HilversumNS]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-32866028

"The flyover bridge at Newton Abbot is 600m (2000ft) high ......."

This is 2.5 X the height of the Millau Viaduct and would become the highest bridge (deck) in the world. I suspect someone added a zero somewhere.

 

[455driver]

This is 2.5 X the height of the Millau Viaduct and would become the highest bridge (deck) in the world. I suspect someone added a zero somewhere.

Or they measured it horizontally!

 

[ExRes]

Well done to Mayor Oliver, he managed to bring some amusement to the people of Brixham

https://newsdesk.moreover.com/click...2&k=58061&ck=f4a2491e3284bced6ea741620cafb4fd

I'm so expecting to be able to catch a train from Brixham ...........

 

[Rapidash]

The day I see a tram, train, airship, high speed ferry or a funny member of the Krankies turn up in Brixham, is the day that I'll eat a barrel of onions.

 

[ExRes]

Actually that's given me a thought, every other train arriving at Torre goes onto a specially built diverting line, which travels over a specially built flyover onto a specially built high speed ferry, then across the bay and into a specially built bay platform in Brixham Harbour, no problems with the built over track between Churston and Brixham, simples

Hello Mayor Oliver, are you there ...........

 

[Railfan2156]

Actually that's given me a thought, every other train arriving at Torre goes onto a specially built diverting line, which travels over a specially built flyover onto a specially built high speed ferry, then across the bay and into a specially built bay platform in Brixham Harbour, no problems with the built over track between Churston and Brixham, simples

Hello Mayor Oliver, are you there ...........

Laugh/Bump