My idea to reduce peak demand

[mrmartin]

It's always seemed crazy to me that so little effort is done reducing peak demand, vs providing more supply at crazy money.

I had an idea for an off peak season ticket. It would apply say, after 9.30am and selected times in the evening peak.

It would be more affordable than the peak. But it would also provide a benefit to the employer, in some sort of rebate against employers NI for every employee that took one (though proportioned so an employer couldn't buy one for the whole office even if they weren't using it).

I think this would give the employee the incentive to come in slightly later and leave later, and the employer to allow this to happen.

It would make a startling difference to move 100,000 people from getting into work at 9am to 10am, I think.

What do people think?

 

[DownSouth]

I couldn't see it actually working. The concept of "business hours" exists for a reason - that anyone can call or attend any business with the reasonable expectation that the people they want to deal with will be there.

My cousin used to work for a computer store/workshop where the idiot owner-manager decided it would be brilliant if they opened at 10:30am instead of 9am on weekdays so it could close at 6:30pm instead of 5pm (to allow personal clients to visit after work) without having to pay for extra staffing costs. It didn't work, because too many of the shop's bread and butter professional clients decided to take their custom elsewhere when faced with the nightmare scenario of having to wait until after 10:30 just to even talk to somebody about some issue that first surfaced at the start of the day.

 

[johnnychips]

If it only applies after 0930, this implies a 1030 start at the earliest at the job. I know there are more jobs where flexi-time is available, but I don't think this will be able to make any significant reduction in peak time travel. Then you have the added problem that off-peak fares kick in at about that time, so it would coincide with the first rush of leisure/shopping/friends-and-relatives-visiting travellers. I'm sure it has been mentioned on here before that the last full-priced train from Birmingham to London is much emptier (relatively) than the first off-peak service

 

[WelshBluebird]

Wouldn't work. People have to be in work at a certain time, so unless you manage to convince bosses to change working hours, then it doesn't matter what you do. Someone who has to be in the office by 9am will travel at the current rush hour regardless, because they simply cannot decide to be an hour later.

 

[transmanche]

People have to be in work at a certain time, so unless you manage to convince bosses to change working hours, then it doesn't matter what you do.

And transport authorities have been trying to persuade bosses to do exactly that since at least WWII...

This is a London Transport poster from 1942:

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Then you have the added problem that off-peak fares kick in at about that time, so it would coincide with the first rush of leisure/shopping/friends-and-relatives-visiting travellers. I'm sure it has been mentioned on here before that the last full-priced train from Birmingham to London is much emptier (relatively) than the first off-peak service

Not just there; the 09.34 Epsom - Waterloo is far busier than the three or four trains ahead of it...

 

[CyrusWuff]

TPE and Southeastern offer "Earlybird" season tickets for those who can travel before the "main" peak. In Southeastern's case, return is valid at any time, but on TPE you can't travel in the evening peak either.

And Greater Anglia offer "Flexitime" season tickets on some routes:

For flows to London, you can't travel into London in the morning peak (defined as arriving into London between 0715 and 0915), but can return at any time.

For flows away from London, you can travel North at any time, but can't travel back towards London before midday.

So, for example, Hertford East - London Terminals is normally £65.80 a week (£2632 for an Annual), but the Flexitime ticket is £60.40 a week (£2416 for an Annual).

A more marked example is Edmonton Green - Hertford East (technically Hertford Stations), where the "normal" weekly is £53.20 (£2128 Annual) and the Flexitime is £34.90 (£1396 Annual).

 

[Sacha]

They use to have a ticket like that on C2C, from my Station Leigh on Sea I had to be on the train by 6.22am or i could not travel until the 8.22am, on the way home you could use any train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shoulder peak trains are often the busiest trains, because people wait for the cheaper fares to kick in. Encouraging more people to wait for these trains wouldn't solve the problem, it would just transfer the problem to a different train.

East Coast's seat availability tool shows this. Trains to Peterborough are quieter in the peak than they are off-peak, because of the price differential between the anytime fare and the off-peak fare.

The idea of a 9-5 job is pretty much dead already in many industries. Bankers, for instance, are expected to be at their desk by 7.30am and probably won't leave it until 7.30pm.

 

[northwichcat]

I couldn't see it actually working. The concept of "business hours" exists for a reason - that anyone can call or attend any business with the reasonable expectation that the people they want to deal with will be there.

My cousin used to work for a computer store/workshop where the idiot owner-manager decided it would be brilliant if they opened at 10:30am instead of 9am on weekdays so it could close at 6:30pm instead of 5pm (to allow personal clients to visit after work) without having to pay for extra staffing costs. It didn't work, because too many of the shop's bread and butter professional clients decided to take their custom elsewhere when faced with the nightmare scenario of having to wait until after 10:30 just to even talk to somebody about some issue that first surfaced at the start of the day.

Say you had all office based employees working 08:30-17:00 or 09:00-17:30 the best thing for the company would be to move half of them to an earlier start time and the other half to a later start time to increase the hours the business is open without a significant increase in costs. What would happen if everyone was scheduled to go home at 16:00 is people would finish up having to stay late more frequently to sort out something a customer/client wants before the end of the day. Saying you're staffed 07:30-18:30 sounds really good but saying you're staffed 07:30-16:00 sounds poor unless more of your clients/customers are based in Europe and an hour ahead of you.

 

[LateThanNever]

Bankers, for instance, are expected to be at their desk by 7.30am and probably won't leave it until 7.30pm.

And the cheapest option for both them and us would be if they gave it a miss and stayed in bed

 

[Kettledrum]

Interesting suggestion, but the idea to deter people from using the train because the trains are too popular is not really in anyone's best long-term interests.

In order to improve the whole economy, we need to be meeting the demand so people can travel and get to work when they need to.

Encouraging people to work shorter hours or not travel to do business might solves a short term capacity problem, but it risks damaging the economy by curtailing economic activity.

I think the government understands this, hence the current levels of investment to provide extra capacity to increase supply. HS2, crossrail, electrification, are all examples of this.

 

[Tav77]

And Greater Anglia offer "Flexitime" season tickets on some routes:

Where are there details of this please? I couldn't see anything on their website

Thanks in advance

 

[alwaystouchout]

Surely one of the reasons for peak pricing is to try and reduce demand a little anyway to match optimum capacity..? Which is never going to happen as the vast majority of employees who commute to work on the train will always need to be there for 9am, and have to catch whatever service they can to be there on time.

Although in fairness at fair few businesses seem to be moving towards staggered working hours for its staff - 9-5, 10-6, 11-7, etc.

 

[aleph_0]

Interesting suggestion, but the idea to deter people from using the train because the trains are too popular is not really in anyone's best long-term interests.

In order to improve the whole economy, we need to be meeting the demand so people can travel and get to work when they need to.

Encouraging people to work shorter hours or not travel to do business might solves a short term capacity problem, but it risks damaging the economy by curtailing economic activity.

I think the government understands this, hence the current levels of investment to provide extra capacity to increase supply. HS2, crossrail, electrification, are all examples of this.

Phrased positively, the idea is to stimulate demand outside the peak, and make it more attractive for peak-time commuters to travel earlier/later - it's a carrot, rather than a stick.

There are people out there with more flexibility. A few years ago, I considered commuting off-peak, but it wasn't worthwhile at 'peak' season ticket prices.

Whilst many employers might currently be stuck in a fixed 9-5 mentality, if there was a financial incentive making a more flexible employer more attractive to employees, the marketplace should adapt.

 

[Goatboy]

Why not increase the price of peak seasons to discourage demand, after all they are already disproportionately cheap with some costing less for a week than an anytime return, and use the extra revenue to reduce the price of off peak tickets?

 

[VauxhallandI]

TPE and Southeastern offer "Earlybird" season tickets for those who can travel before the "main" peak. In Southeastern's case, return is valid at any time, but on TPE you can't travel in the evening peak either.

And Greater Anglia offer "Flexitime" season tickets on some routes:

For flows to London, you can't travel into London in the morning peak (defined as arriving into London between 0715 and 0915), but can return at any time.

For flows away from London, you can travel North at any time, but can't travel back towards London before midday.

So, for example, Hertford East - London Terminals is normally £65.80 a week (£2632 for an Annual), but the Flexitime ticket is £60.40 a week (£2416 for an Annual).

A more marked example is Edmonton Green - Hertford East (technically Hertford Stations), where the "normal" weekly is £53.20 (£2128 Annual) and the Flexitime is £34.90 (£1396 Annual).

Wow GA flexi London bound, they really shouldn't have, no they really shouldn't have.

 

[Sleepy]

Only problem with services ex London Liverpool st is from 1400 - 1600 there is already high volume of season pax travelling home who must start work around 0630 (also lots of Police on shifts), so anything on GE side from 1430 to 2000 is very busy !

 

[londiscape]

Interesting suggestion, but the idea to deter people from using the train because the trains are too popular is not really in anyone's best long-term interests.

In order to improve the whole economy, we need to be meeting the demand so people can travel and get to work when they need to.

Encouraging people to work shorter hours or not travel to do business might solves a short term capacity problem, but it risks damaging the economy by curtailing economic activity.

I think the government understands this, hence the current levels of investment to provide extra capacity to increase supply. HS2, crossrail, electrification, are all examples of this.

Quite, and this is a problem for EMPLOYERS to solve, not the railways, not the travelling public, and not the commuters who are currently forced by employers to travel to an office at the same time, to the same place, every day.

Technology is well advanced at this point in our economic evolution to allow at least (IMHO) 40% of current economically-productive tasks to be undertaken by telecommuting. We have video-conferencing, online document collaboration, Virtual Private Networks etc...

Employers need to get out of their control freakery and start allowing staff to work outside of the office, where the tasks allow it. This will not only save capacity on transport routes, but would, ideally, go some way towards solving the criminal stupidity that is the housing market in the South-East.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why not increase the price of peak seasons to discourage demand, after all they are already disproportionately cheap with some costing less for a week than an anytime return, and use the extra revenue to reduce the price of off peak tickets?

Season tickets are not disproportionately cheap, even when you're comparing it to the extortion that is an anytime ticket.

 

[Deerfold]

Outside of London this also needs some help from bus companies serving the stations - I've lived in a few places where at 1800 either the restricted evening service starts or the bus service stops completely.

 

[Beveridges]

On the Bolton to Manchester line there are often trains that are full and standing well before 16:00 and well after 19:00.

 

[Goatboy]

Season tickets are not disproportionately cheap, even when you're comparing it to the extortion that is an anytime ticket.

Season tickets are a bargain.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Of course, the issue isn't confined to Railways. The roads suffer in exactly the same way from the same cause - a dogged and blind insistence (in many cases without REAL cause) on "9 to 5". I know - I've been there and and it only caused my commute to take longer and be less comfortable. There wasn't any real reason; no real benefit to the business.

I suggest a disincentive, not on rail fares etc., but in corporate taxation or NI. The closer someone is required to start to 9am and to finiish at 5pm, the greater the disincentive. At least it might cause some comapnies to revist who really needs to stick to those hours. A financial disincentive is often the route to kicking off some creative thinking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Season tickets are a bargain.

In what way is a season ticket a bargain? I know the greedy troughers at the TOCs like to pretend they are, but that's not the same thing. ATOC think calling all tickets by the same name is simple, but that's not true either.

Season tickets do nothing over than offer a discount for bulk-buying in advance. They provide a discount for committing to a service. The bigger the commitment, the bigger the discount. TOCs benefit by having fewer overheads (no queuing at the ticket office every morning, or processing five payments a week) and by having my money in their bank account in advance. The TOCs transfer risk from them to me, and give me a discount to encourage it. If I'm sick, or if I take a day's holiday, I don't get that day back on my season ticket, whereas I would if I were buying daily tickets.

The cash and carry may be cheaper than the corner shop, but that's not the same thing as a "bargain".

 

[Deerfold]

Season tickets are not disproportionately cheap, even when you're comparing it to the extortion that is an anytime ticket.

Season tickets are a bargain.

As there's no common multiplier used for season tickets, surely it varies enormously around the country.

Although it's the most expensive thing I've ever bought I think my season ticket is a bargain, although it's more than I used to pay annually using advance tickets.

 

[westv]

If I were to buy a season ticket I'd have to lay out £12k a year.

 

[infobleep]

Where I work we operate flexi-time but we are not allowed to start before 7.45 and must be in working during the hours of 10.00 to 16.00. We are then allowed to carry on working up to 18.00 hours only.

That wouldn't work for buying off peak tickets. I currently work in the public sector, although I've worked in the private sector before now operating a similar policy, although with more flexibility on when I could arrive and leave but still similar core hours. I can work from home but what is the point when I have a season ticket. I don't save that much money if any by doing so.

I wouldn't mind more advance purchase tickets being sold that worked across multiple train companies or multi-buy tickets that worked across multiple train companies. To much is restricted to a single train company. Unfortunately we've had many years of nationalised railways so you tend to want the benefits privatisation brings but with a nationalisation mind set. So yes you want advanced purchase tickets but you want them not to be only able for journeys whole within one train companies operating lines.

 

[SS4]

Quite, and this is a problem for EMPLOYERS to solve, not the railways, not the travelling public, and not the commuters who are currently forced by employers to travel to an office at the same time, to the same place, every day.

Technology is well advanced at this point in our economic evolution to allow at least (IMHO) 40% of current economically-productive tasks to be undertaken by telecommuting. We have video-conferencing, online document collaboration, Virtual Private Networks etc...

Employers need to get out of their control freakery and start allowing staff to work outside of the office, where the tasks allow it. This will not only save capacity on transport routes, but would, ideally, go some way towards solving the criminal stupidity that is the housing market in the South-East.

I don't think it's control freakery so much as inertia: they insist on 9-5 M-F because it's always been 9-5 M-F.
I also wonder how many people like doing 9-5 M-F to know where they stand. Flexitime is great if the transport is there to get you in early or late and so we end up with catch 22 between public transport and employers although I do agree it's easier for employers to change working practices especially in cities.

Working from home and telecommunications has had a rough 2013 with the Snowden revelations and I shouldn't be surprised if some businesses haven't gotten paranoid about IT even if it doesn't really affect their day to day business. DPA may also be another hurdle

edit: Perhaps instead of moving employees if we moved the work opportunities elsewhere so there is less stress on London and the South-East?

 

[Moonshot]

I don't think it's control freakery so much as inertia: they insist on 9-5 M-F because it's always been 9-5 M-F.
I also wonder how many people like doing 9-5 M-F to know where they stand. Flexitime is great if the transport is there to get you in early or late and so we end up with catch 22 between public transport and employers although I do agree it's easier for employers to change working practices especially in cities.

Working from home and telecommunications has had a rough 2013 with the Snowden revelations and I shouldn't be surprised if some businesses haven't gotten paranoid about IT even if it doesn't really affect their day to day business. DPA may also be another hurdle

edit: Perhaps instead of moving employees if we moved the work opportunities elsewhere so there is less stress on London and the South-East?

What are Snowden revelations?

And yes I agree with your edit at the end.....regions need to be incentivsied and show initiative in attracting investment. Government could lead the way here by both downsizing Whitehall and giving regional/local government far more say ....