My idea for Trans Pennine Express on the Settle-Carlisle

[Gathursty]

Trans Pennine Express operate from Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh along the West Coast Mainline. What would be the feasibility of instead redirecting this service calling at:

Manchester Airport
Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Oxford Road
Bolton
Blackburn
Clitheroe
Settle
Appleby
Carlisle
Lockerbie
Then either Motherwell and Glasgow Central or Haymarket and Edinburgh?

I know that electrification of the Chat Moss Line means this is a bit of a fantasy-land idea but I'd imagine anything that avoids the WCML for a bit would be a boon and it's not much of a diversion for full distance passengers as the calls are roughly the same number as using the WCML route.

Also it will obviously be closer to the Pennines!

 

[HSTEd]

It would be slow as anything.
The S&C is basically a freight railway with some passenger services squeezed on.

 

[The Planner]

Not
Going
To
Happen

 

[dk1]

Passengers want to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Been on that routing (more or less) when there's been WCML weekend diversions on, and the journey times from Scotland to Manchester were IIRC extended by the best part of two hours.

Can't see it ever having a regular through passenger service.

 

[David Barrett]

I would have thought that Leeds to Glasgow/Edinburgh via the S.& C. would have made more sense, the most recent incarnation being that operated by Northern Spirit some years ago. Apparently that was ended on the grounds of remoteness from Northern Spirit's core operation in the case of any difficulty being experienced North of Carlisle. Whilst I wouldn't expect that officialdom could use the same reason for T.P. not operating any such service I also wouldn't expect there to be any advocates of such an operation in those same offices.

 

[Dunc108]

Personally i think the best its ever going to get is perhaps an extension of a handful of the existing Northern Clitheroe line service to Carlisle. Can't see regular TPX happening at all only for diversionary purposes... even extension of the Northern service would require diagram alterations and would depend on having spare stock...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would have thought that Leeds to Glasgow/Edinburgh via the S.& C. would have made more sense, the most recent incarnation being that operated by Northern Spirit some years ago. Apparently that was ended on the grounds of remoteness from Northern Spirit's core operation in the case of any difficulty being experienced North of Carlisle. Whilst I wouldn't expect that officialdom could use the same reason for T.P. not operating any such service I also wouldn't expect there to be any advocates of such an operation in those same offices.

I personally think that is a future route for 185s

 

[David Barrett]

I personally think that is a future route for 185s

Their capabilities would not be wasted in any such future move.

 

[Condor7]

I personally think that is a future route for 185s

It was my understanding that when the class 350's took over fully on the WCML for TPE the 185's would be obtained by Northern for use on the S&C.

 

[47802]

It was my understanding that when the class 350's took over fully on the WCML for TPE the 185's would be obtained by Northern for use on the S&C.

Really who came up with that one, even if DFT hadnt let TPX retain them to increase capacity on the North Transpennine route, I would imagine that TPX would have prefered to release the 170's.

 

[Manchester77]

It was my understanding that when the class 350's took over fully on the WCML for TPE the 185's would be obtained by Northern for use on the S&C.

Wherever you heard that?! The plan has always been to release the 185s to strengthen 'core' TPE services. As it is they'll still need all of them for some Anglo-Scottish services as there won't be enough 350s

 

[Condor7]

It would be slow as anything.
The S&C is basically a freight railway with some passenger services squeezed on.

"Squeezed in" !!!!!!!

Last week the average number of freight trains on the S&C Monday to Friday was 6 per day over a 24 hour period.

I admit that was a quieter week than normal but when it is more than that it is usually during the night, and would not affect passenger trains.

The line needed massive investment in the recent past to upgrade what was a fast deteriorating infrastructure which it received but now everytime someone suggests additional services there is ALWAYS a reason why not.

This line was capable of over 100 trains a day in the past, and now it is around 30, and we are saying we can't "squeeze" any more in.

I wonder what the point of the millions of pounds was for.

 

[Crossover]

Really who came up with that one, even if DFT hadnt let TPX retain them to increase capacity on the North Transpennine route, I would imagine that TPX would have prefered to release the 170's.

I can imagine that by the time they reached the summit on the S&C, they'd either be barely moving or be heading back in the direction they came in :P

Well, I guess it may give the discontinuity editors on the rail programs something to smile about...

 

[dave59]

Leeds-Glasgow should work subject to a line speed limit increase which seems to have slipped down the NR priority list.

 

[cuccir]

If nothing else you're replacing Preston (114,300) with Blackburn (105,085 ), Lancaster (45,952) with Clitheroe (14,697), Oxenholme aka Kendal (27,505) with Settle (2,421) and Penrith (15,155) with Appleby (2,862), not to mention that the stations up the WCML have much better connections for locations such as Blackpool, Barrow-in-Furness, Windermere.

In other words, I can't see why this would be desirable! As above, a better and feasible improvement to services would be to extend Clitheroe services to Settle, allowing for connections to the S&C (as well as Carnforth-Leeds) with some services going through if demand appears.

 

[DarloRich]

Not
Going
To
Happen

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Real people want to get from A-B as quickly as possible

It was my understanding that when the class 350's took over fully on the WCML for TPE the 185's would be obtained by Northern for use on the S&C.

of course they will - i mean there isn't a pressing need for them to boost services on the TPE core or anything is there?

"Squeezed in" !!!!!!!

Last week the average number of freight trains on the S&C Monday to Friday was 6 per day over a 24 hour period.

I admit that was a quieter week than normal but when it is more than that it is usually during the night, and would not affect passenger trains.

The line needed massive investment in the recent past to upgrade what was a fast deteriorating infrastructure which it received but now everytime someone suggests additional services there is ALWAYS a reason why not.

This line was capable of over 100 trains a day in the past, and now it is around 30, and we are saying we can't "squeeze" any more in.

I wonder what the point of the millions of pounds was for.

Are you being serious?

 

[Liam_Hendry]

If this was Originating from Carlisle instead of Scotland then I could see this working. But I don't think people from Lockerbie (and Northwards) would be very happy having to go all the way around via Settle when all they want to do is get from A-B as quickly as possible.

If I made this a service, I would maybe run 2/3 trains a day in each direction (Starting from Carlisle Southbound and Manchester Northbound
------------
1 early morning service
1 lunchtime service
1 evening service

 

[DarloRich]

If this was Originating from Carlisle instead of Scotland then I could see this working. But I don't think people from Lockerbie (and Northwards) would be very happy having to go all the way around via Settle when all they want to do is get from A-B as quickly as possible.

If I made this a service, I would maybe run 2/3 trains a day in each direction (Starting from Carlisle Southbound and Manchester Northbound
------------
1 early morning service
1 lunchtime service
1 evening service

must be polite - The whole point of the current TPE service is to offer connections between the North West/Manchester Airport & Scotland restoring links lost in the various franchise changes.

If you want Manchester form Carlisle surely you would just desert this service and take Virgin to Preston or even Crewe and change there!

Finally you are wasting 100 mph stock on a slow journey - why not just cut the service and use it elsewhere?

 

[tbtc]

If nothing else you're replacing Preston (114,300) with Blackburn (105,085 ), Lancaster (45,952) with Clitheroe (14,697), Oxenholme aka Kendal (27,505) with Settle (2,421) and Penrith (15,155) with Appleby (2,862), not to mention that the stations up the WCML have much better connections for locations such as Blackpool, Barrow-in-Furness, Windermere.

In other words, I can't see why this would be desirable!

It ticks a lot of boxes for some enthusiasts - a regular service over a mainly freight line (Clitheroe to Hellifield), a scenic alternative to what will be a duller EMU service in a few months etc

But unless anyone can convince me of a huge untapped demand for a direct Blackburn - Carlisle service (faster than changing at Preston? probably not) then I'm out.

(I've suggested that if there were ever a spare 150 then it could be used to extend the Manchester - Clitheroe service to Skipton via Hellifield, to avoid the need for SELRAP... this would also give Manchester/ Lancashire a link to the S&C and also give connections to the Airedale line at Skipton)

 

[Class172]

We may as well revert some services to 37s+mk2s on the S&C... *hides*

 

[YorkshireBear]

We may as well revert some services to 37s+mk2s on the S&C... *hides*

31 and mk1s i think you mean.



In response to the general trend of the thread, the S&C is no longer a priority due to the lack of coal coming from Scotland, Network Rail have bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[Class172]

Why was I thinking of 37s and mk2s then?? :?

 

[tbtc]

Why was I thinking of 37s and mk2s then?? :?

That's what ATN used to use on the Knaresborough - Leeds and Leeds - Carlisle service, a decade ago.

 

[Class172]

That's what ATN used to use on the Knaresborough - Leeds and Leeds - Carlisle service, a decade ago.

I wasn't blurting rubbish then - that's exactly what I was thinking of.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why was I thinking of 37s and mk2s then?? :?

I was just going further back in time that is all continuing your joke rather than saying it was wrong :P

 

[Class172]

I was just going further back in time that is all continuing your joke rather than saying it was wrong :P

Humour doesn't all too well carry on a forum (particularly when I didn't know the previous history!)...

 

[43074]

Would Leeds to Glasgow via S&C work using 185s? IIRC there isn't much of a journey time difference between a pair of 158s on the S&C followed by a Pendolino to Glasgow, than a Voyager via the ECML.

Surely if we are going to do anything to passenger services on the S&C, a higher priority would be to establish a clockface service pattern of every 2 hours throughout the day...

EDIT: The fastest time between Leeds and Glasgow is 4hr5 mins by the direct XC services, closely followed by Leeds to Glasgow via S&C with a time of 4hr12 (departing LDS on the 08:49).

 

[tbtc]

Surely if we are going to do anything to passenger services on the S&C, a higher priority would be to establish a clockface service pattern of every 2 hours throughout the day...

I think that an hourly service from Skipton to Settle would be a big step forward (some running as Leeds - Carlisle services, some just shuttling from Skipton to Settle and connecting with the Airedale services at Skipton).

It should only be about twenty minutes, so a spare Pacer could provide an hourly shuttle from Skipton to Settle all by itself (on top of the longer distance S&C service), providing a lot of connections onto the 333.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Settle and the intermediate stations are a big growth area in terms of Leeds commuting, really big growth has been seen recently with people enjoying the livelihood out in the hills. I would certainly agree with what you are saying. Something to look at post CP7 i think though, until then our DMU situation will remain tight!