My idea for the scotrail sleeper

[dannypye9999]

Rather that run non stop London to Scotland, why not have calls to Pick up at Birmingham and Manchester? Surely it would generate more income for the struggling service.

 

[anti-pacer]

Rather that run non stop London to Scotland, why not have calls to Pick up at Birmingham and Manchester? Surely it would generate more income for the struggling service.

But who would want to board a Sleeper service at say 1 or 3am? You wouldn't get much sleep would you?

 

[sprinterguy]

But who would want to board a Sleeper service at say 1 or 3am? You wouldn't get much sleep would you?

I'd much rather a Birmingham call on the Highland Sleeper than the Crewe stop that it presently provides. Quite happy to retain the Preston call as opposed to Manchester though to meet the needs of the North West region, particularly as there isn't quite yet an electrified route North out of Manchester (Though soon to change).

In terms of spare capacity, I'm not sure that the service is struggling. Berth availability is often quite low and the cheaper berths usually sell out quite quickly when I have looked into making sleeper journeys, although granted I'm generally only interested in travelling on the Fort William sleeper around the weekend, which never loads to more than three sleeper coaches. The principal weaknesses of the sleepers in terms of revenue and financial performance are the low number of passengers that it can accomodate, the low number of services per day and the complexity of the service operated. And it isn't possible to make the trains any longer.

 

[dannypye9999]

But who would want to board a Sleeper service at say 1 or 3am? You wouldn't get much sleep would you?

9pm out of Euston, id say 10.30 at Birmingham and 00.00 Manchester - plus there is seating for those who don't want a berth.

 

[ainsworth74]

9pm out of Euston, id say 10.30 at Birmingham and 00.00 Manchester - plus there is seating for those who don't want a berth.

But the problem remains not that the Sleeper is poorly used but simply that it has very high costs for what is a low number of passengers (one return trip per day, high staff to passenger ratio and it's complex operationally) even when the train is sold out (and I'm lead to believe that's quite a regular occurance).

 

[anti-pacer]

9pm out of Euston, id say 10.30 at Birmingham and 00.00 Manchester - plus there is seating for those who don't want a berth.

Yes, true. On reflection it wouldn't call at those points that late. :roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

9pm out of Euston, id say 10.30 at Birmingham and 00.00 Manchester - plus there is seating for those who don't want a berth.

A call at Birmingham or Manchester would mean it had to go that way, or they'd have to lay on a replacement bus.

Having no public intermediate calls means routeing it is highly flexible and it won't get snookered by engineering work on random nights of the week, they can just divert it a different way without passengers even being aware of it...

 

[Eagle]

9pm out of Euston, id say 10.30 at Birmingham and 00.00 Manchester

And then arriving in Edinburgh at 03.30? Or are you proposing to have it crawl up the WCML at 30 mph (with a subsequent reduction in freight to make room for this slow train).

Scotland isn't far enough away for a decent sleeper service from northern England.

 

[edwin_m]

It wouldn't matter if it arrived at Edinburgh at 0330 as long as it was able to stand in the platform until a more civilised time.

 

[ainsworth74]

But seeing as the only Sleeper at a sensible hour for Northern England is the Highland that won't happen as that train then has to go on to Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William...

 

[telstarbox]

Plus there are late evening and early morning flights between Birmingham/Manchester and Scotland.

 

[Eagle]

And for the budget-conscious, there are overnight coaches which are cheaper, and slower so you will actually get a full night's sleep. :P

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair to the OP, I've used the Cornish Sleeper to get back to Taunton at 3am a fair few times. Though the Scottish services are already much more complex given that they divide/join- so it'd be a risk to introduce more issues into the mix. There's also the problem of it being regularly diverted via the ECML, so any Brum or Manc passengers would need to be taxied from London (or possibly York) at the railway's expense. I believe this is why the Cornish service no longer officially serves Bristol.

 

[dannypye9999]

And then arriving in Edinburgh at 03.30? Or are you proposing to have it crawl up the WCML at 30 mph (with a subsequent reduction in freight to make room for this slow train).

Scotland isn't far enough away for a decent sleeper service from northern England.

Most sleepers arrive Edinburgh 4 or 5am anyway before certain carriages are detatched and berth cabins have to be vacant by 7.30

 

[reb0118]

There's also the problem of it being regularly diverted via the ECML, so any Brum or Manc passengers would need to be taxied from London (or possibly York) at the railway's expense.

Not necessary. The Sleeper is reservation compulsory so they just don't take any bookings for the stations not served. Passengers turning up on spec (and there will be a few) will be fair scunnered!

 

[Darandio]

Most sleepers arrive Edinburgh 4 or 5am anyway before certain carriages are detatched and berth cabins have to be vacant by 7.30

When? The lowland doesn't even leave Carstairs until after half six does it?

 

[Eagle]

The Lowland leaves London at midnight, and arrives Edinburgh and Glasgow at around 07.00 (give or take half an hour either way, depending on engineering and such).

It's completely immaterial what time the Highland arrives in Edinburgh, because it's not a passenger stop.

 

[dannypye9999]

and it won't get snookered by engineering work on random nights of the week, they can just divert it a different way without passengers even being aware of it...

Its diversion path sometimes runs through Birmingham International or when theres work between Crewe and Preston (this one on a regular basis) it runs via Manchester and there are plenty of diversion opportunities from Stafford to Manchester. It could be booked this way for a trial period of the timetable, I dont think it will upset passengers that much having a couple of extra stops as they'd be asleep anyway

 

[Eagle]

I dont think it will upset passengers that much having a couple of extra stops as they'd be asleep anyway

You've never been on a sleeper seated, have you? When you're in seated you will be woken up every time passengers join. Assuming you've gotten to sleep at all by that point.

 

[Techniquest]

Eagle has it right, assuming you can sleep at all on the seated sleeper, I've been rammed in next to people most times and that horrible MK2 brake noise makes sleeping very difficult. Next time I'm on the Scottish sleeper I WILL be getting a berth. Although to be fair it's more likely I'll fly from Birmingham or Manchester to be fair!

 

[reb0118]

You've never been on a sleeper seated, have you? When you're in seated you will be woken up every time passengers join. Assuming you've gotten to sleep at all by that point.

Especially when that nutter to/from Grimsby is on board. He's on his last warning from me. It can also be a right nuisance if you're in an aisle seat with a hyperactive scouser sat in the window seat beside you.

Oh the joys of coach "A"

 

[D6975]

The Lowland leaves London at midnight, and arrives Edinburgh and Glasgow at around 07.00 (give or take half an hour either way, depending on engineering and such).

It's completely immaterial what time the Highland arrives in Edinburgh, because it's not a passenger stop.

Not quite true, the Fort Bill section is officially a stop at Edinburgh, you can buy a ticket Edin - Fort Bill for this service. You could last time I checked anyway. Euston - West Highland seated passengers have to detrain and reboard at Waverley too. The Inverness/Aberdeen portions don't officially stop there though, an Edinburgh ticket on these involves changing at Stirling or Inverkeithing or wherever, despite the doors opening at Waverley to allow the Fort Bill transfers - MAD!

 

[Eagle]

Not quite true, the Fort Bill section is officially a stop at Edinburgh, you can buy a ticket Edin - Fort Bill for this service.

It's pick up only, though. You can't use a London/Crewe/Preston to Edinburgh ticket on it.

Not sure how well it's enforced, though.

 

[dannypye9999]

I think its rather stupid if a train stopping at Edinburgh for a loco reverse is not an official stop. Does this mean if I travel on the highland from Euston with an Edinburgh ticket i will be charged full fare to the next stop out of Edinburgh, even though the train stops at Edinburgh and they can refuse to let me leave the train?

 

[Eagle]

They'll refuse to let you on the train in the first place, because you won't have a reservation.

Reservations are mandatory on the sleeper when travelling from London (and they will check your name against a list).

 

[dannypye9999]

According to National Rail advance tickets you can travel on this train and change at Stirling for a connection to Edinburgh.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi.../dep&saved=false&responseId=4&fareDisplayId=4

 

[Eagle]

Yes, you can do that (I've done it before, travelling from Crewe), but it requires two tickets: one from London to Stirling and one from Stirling to Edinburgh.

Plus you get turfed out at Stirling at about 04.30, and the first train back to Edinburgh isn't until about 05.30. I wouldn't recommend it :P

 

[PaxVobiscum]

But the problem remains not that the Sleeper is poorly used but simply that it has very high costs for what is a low number of passengers (one return trip per day, high staff to passenger ratio and it's complex operationally) even when the train is sold out (and I'm lead to believe that's quite a regular occurance).

How about a daytime sleeper service or two then? Plenty of people seem to want to sleep on the train from what I've seen, and perfect for a relaxed return from a evening's clubbing in London (OK maybe not in Fort William).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does the reservation only rule apply to seated passengers too, not just those who've paid for a berth? That being the case would rather limit the market for any passengers to say Manchester or Birmingham (as suggested by the OP) as who would bother to pay for a berth if they're getting turfed out at 3am?! Allowing more seated passengers would also, if successful, require an extra seated carriage- which on the Highland Sleeper wouldn't fit into the platforms at Euston anyway!

 

[reb0118]

..............and they can refuse to let me leave the train?

It's not the fact that they refuse to let you leave the train but that the station is closed - you may struggle to leave that as all the exits may be locked. At least until 04:45 or is it 04:00?