My idea for Southern trains fleet improvement

[ryan125hst]

As most of you will be aware, certain areas of the network are suffering from a lack of capacity, and there is also a large quantity of rolling stock that will need replacing within the next decade or so. As a result of this, I thought I would give few of my ideas on what could be done to increase capacity and replace rolling stock, so you could give your thoughts and discuss what you think will actually be done.

I’ve got a few to post over the next few weeks, but to start with, I’m going to post one that is a bit quicker to do and easier to understand: Southern.

Southern currently has the following fleet:

• 1x Class 73- used as a Thunderbird locomotive
• 15x Class 171- used on the Oxted and Marchlink lines
• 19x Class 313- used on East and West Coastway services
• 64x Class 377/1- used on all 3rd rail routes
• 12x Class 377/2- used on South Croydon to Milton Keynes services
• 28x Class 377/3- used on London suburban services
• 75x Class 377/4- used on all 3rd rail routes
• 26x Class 377/6- used on London suburban services. (Some of these units are still on order/being delivered)
• 17x Class 442- used on Gatwick Express services, with a few extensions to Brighton during the morning and evening peak
• 46x Class 455- used on suburban services from London Victoria and London Bridge
• 24x Class 456- used on suburban services from London Victoria and London Bridge

The main problems with the fleet are, firstly, the fact that class 313’s are operating some Coastway services, despite the fact that they lack toilets and are approaching 40 years old. A second issue is the fact that their fleet is quite varied.

My idea for improvement:

Keep the Class 73 for use as a Thunderbird, and keep the class 171’s for the services they are currently used on. Should the Oxted and Marchlink lines be electrified, they can be converted into class 170’s (fitted with BSI couplers) and displaced to other Turbostar operators.

Retire the class 313’s and either put them into storage, scrap them, or send them to First Capital Connect to strengthen their Moorgate service. The Class 377/3’s can then return to the Coastway service- the routes that they were designed for, also meaning that the route gets its new trains with toilets back (I believe there were a lot of complaints when the 313’s were introduced).

The class 456’s are moving to South West Trains next year to strengthen 8-car services to 10-car. According to Wikipedia, the new class 377/6’s are replacing the twenty six class 377’s loaned to First Capital Connect as well as facilitating the transfer of the class 456’s and also creating extra capacity. While I can see how 26 new trains can replace 26 trains going to FCC, I am a bit lost on the last two things: The 24 class 456’s mean a loss of 48 carriages, yet there will only be 26 extra carriages arriving (compared to the 377’s loaned to FCC). I don’t quite understand how they 377/6 can also create additional capacity given the information above. Am I missing something?

Southern are also receiving 8 new dual voltage class 377/7’s, presumably to add capacity (8 coach services instead of 4) to the South Croydon to Milton Keynes route, so that doesn’t seem to be a problem.

Finally, I would order a fleet of 60 to 70 new class 377’s (/8’s maybe?) to replace the class 455’s and the 377/3’s that will return to Coastway services. These would be four coaches long but would lack first class and would contain mostly 2+3 seating for metro services. They would still contain two toilets, allowing them to operate on longer routes if necessary, either temporarily (services alterations/to cover for failed units or units undergoing maintenance), or permanently if first class seating was added. Of course, some of them could be five coaches if necessary.

Overall, this would give Southern the following fleet:

• 1x Class 73- used as a Thunderbird locomotive
• 15x Class 171- used on the Oxted and Marchlink lines
• 64x Class 377/1- used on all 3rd rail routes
• 12x Class 377/2- used on South Croydon to Milton Keynes services
• 28x Class 377/3- used on Coastway services
• 75x Class 377/4- used on all 3rd rail routes
• 26x Class 377/6- used on London suburban services (Some of these units are still on order/being delivered)
• 8x Class 377/7’s- used to add capacity on South Croydon to Milton Keynes services
• 70x Class 377/8’s- used on London suburban (metro) services
• 17x Class 442- used on Gatwick Express services, with a few extensions to Brighton during the morning and evening peak

So a total of 283 Class 377’s, 17 Class 442’s, 15 Class 171’s and a Class 73. I think it makes sense to replace the Class 313’s and 455’s with Electrostars meaning that Southern will get a more uniform fleet. With the Turbostars being based on the same design anyway, it only leaves the Class 442’s as the odd one out, but as they will be dedicated to Gatwick Express services, except for a few peak time Brighton workings, it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

I’m no expert with Southern and have only travelled with them twice (from London Victoria to East Croydon and back) so I don’t know everything about their services and am likely to have missed some details that some of you will be able to correct.

I’m also aware that the 26 class 377’s that are on loan to First Capital Connect will eventually return, and that 29 four car class 387’s have been ordered for Thamslink routes to allow the class 319’s to be cascaded before the class 700’s arrive. Assuming that the 387’s will be very similar to the 377’s, that could mean that Southern could be getting 55 trains in a few years’ time. This would mean that only a small number of extra units would need to be ordered (if the capacity was needed) to replace the class 455 fleet.

So, what do you think? Does this seem to be the likely plan for Southern?

 

[swt_passenger]

... While I can see how 26 new trains can replace 26 trains going to FCC, I am a bit lost on the last two things: The 24 class 456’s mean a loss of 48 carriages, yet there will only be 26 extra carriages arriving (compared to the 377’s loaned to FCC). I don’t quite understand how they 377/6 can also create additional capacity given the information above. Am I missing something?

They aren't replacing 26 trains that are 'going to FCC'; they (FCC) have already got the 23 x 377/5s, which have never worked with SN before, and 3 x 377/2, and they have had the latter for a while.

So the 26 units are effectively providing 130 additional carriages for SN, less the 48 456s.

So as far as Southern are concerned they are a significant capacity increase, just not the way that it was originally intended.

The rest of your post is summed up as Southern to go nearly all 377, with the exception of there no longer being any 377/8s - they are now 387s. So what's new - it's been discussed relatively recently.

 

[NSE]

It's not terrible, but there is no desperate need to replace the 455's personally. And, if I'm honest, I've not travelled on SN's, but FCC's 313's have perfectly reliable and therefore I don't see the desperate need to replace them either.

 

[Chrisgr31]

There is a desperate need on Southern for more Class 171's or something compatible with them. The existing fleet of 171's are apparently the most reliable diesel fleet in the country, which is just as well as they are working so hard. The new franchise documentation does of course make this point with the requirement to provide longer services on the Uckfield line from December 2016, which can only be done with additional stock (presumably refitted Class 172s)

 

[Peter Sarf]

Southern are also receiving 8 new dual voltage class 377/7’s, presumably to add capacity (8 coach services instead of 4) to the South Croydon to Milton Keynes route, so that doesn’t seem to be a problem.

I was under the impression that the 377/7s are five car units.

I used to travel on the East Croydon to Wembley/Harrow leg of that route and one extra coach might mean no-one getting left behind. Would be nicer if it was eight coaches instead of five coaches though. I gave up travelling that way as it was too often impossible to get on. Transport For London "simplified" their travelcard fares by getting rid of the one day travelcard that was cheaper because it excluded zone one (central London). Thus I was paying for the more expensive route anyway. Now tell me they want to encourage travel avoiding central London.

The 23 class 377/5s have never worked on Southern 11 (or 12) were meant for Thameslink and the remaining 12 (or 11) originally for Southern were loaned immediately to Thameslink. So they just did not provide the extra capacity that the 377/6s are now providing.

The 3 (is it 3 ?) class 377/2s on Thameslink duties did work for years on Southern and could have strengthened the East Croydon - Watford Junction service (or wherever it starts/finishes its route this season).

I believe the 26 class 377/6s are a substitute for the PLANNED 26 four car units (377/2 and 377/5) that are with Thameslink and wont be available soon enough due to the time it has taken organising getting the class 700s on the never never for Thameslink. It was also decided that pairs of 5 car units were more use on the Metro routes than pairs of 4 car units and so the platform lengthening has/is been done and the 377/6s are rolling in.

So the 26 377/2s and /5s from Thameslink will be a nice to have IF they go to Southern.

Likewise the 387s (aka 377/8s) for Thameslink are a stopgap and will move on to one of many deserving TOCS in due course. Unlikely to be Southern otherwise they would be class 377/8s wouldn't they !.

 

[Bald Rick]

My vote is to buy a fleet of 110 x 12 or 8 car trains, say around 1100 vehicles in total, to take over many of the routes currently operated by 377s, therebŷ releasing them to be used on other routes.

But it will never happen.

 

[Monty]

I thought Southern took on all 24 of the 442s? Not 17 as mentioned by the OP.

 

[sonic2009]

I thought Southern took on all 24 of the 442s? Not 17 as mentioned by the OP.

Correct all 24 sets are with Southern.

 

[Class377/5]

The 377/5 were ordered to allow 10 car metro services from December 2013. As things turned out the order for 12x was increased by 11 to allow 12x 377/2 to go to Thameslink. In the end all 23x 377/5 went to Thameslink straight away with the 11x units Southern had ordered and paid for. They later were brought by the ROSCO.

The Southern franchise was let with a deal to transfer 3x 377/2 to Thameslink from Dec 2011 until the first TRSP unit (class 700) arrived in service in February 2012.

The TRSP (Thameslink Rolling Stock Project) go very late as a result of multiple issues.

So Southern who had a franchise commitment of 10 car metro routes was allowed to order 26x 377/6 to replace the Thameslink 377 for train lengthening. The 456's were coming off lease anyway in December 2013 and I believe they would have been withdrawn anyway even if the 377/5 had returned to Southern. This saved the DfT embarrassment of allowing the train lengthening to be withdrawn from the franchise agreement with all the bad press this would generate.

During the Southern franchise the WLL with its 1tph 4 car service got very busy even with the peak extras. So LO decided to extend trains to five cars. Southern/Network Rail had long wanted a 8 car 2tph service. But this required more dual voltage stock displaced from the class 700 introduction. (ie Horsham going over to 700 allowed 377s to be moved within the franchise to allow the dual voltage units to be moved from South London Metro services to the Milton Keynes run).

What Southern arranged was extra units as part if the 377/6 deal which the DfT later allowed so Southern can run 1tph South Croydon - Milton Keynes and 1tph South Croydon - Watford Junction in 2014. One as a five car, other an 8 car. Tied in with this deal for 8x 377/7 was to give Thameslink 6x 377/2 to release 6x 319s for 'Northern' in May 2014. This deal still hasn't been fully signed off.

The 387 order (also know initially as the 377/8s) is for 29x 110mph dual voltage Electrostar units for Thameslink with the units arriving between April and November 2015, to allow 29x 319s to go elsewhere. There's an option for another 35 units as a safeguard against the 700 fleet being delayed tho rumors are FGW would like to have the 35 x 387 from new to run GW services from December 2016.

Also remember that 25x 377 (DC only four car units or /1 or /4) transfer to Southeastern in December 2017 which will have a bearing on you.

My vote is to buy a fleet of 110 x 12 or 8 car trains, say around 1100 vehicles in total, to take over many of the routes currently operated by 377s, therebŷ releasing them to be used on other routes.

But it will never happen.

Add in another 5 units, make them dual voltage and I'm sure a deal can be arranged!

 

[HSTEd]

TSGN should ideally go all Desiro City.

You will need some 6-car units to go along with the 8 and 12 car units (for Moorgate and secondary routes) but that basically releases enough EMUs to deal with all electrification projects in the forseable future.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On the subject of the Finsbury Park - Moorgate route I think not just any unit will fit down the tunnels ?. Though I am unsure how much lower a 313 coach is it certainly is lower without a pantograph than Mk3 based stock. So its a limited choice as to what could be used on that route which must be why its third rail.

Nice lot of info from Class377/5 above (post 9) - thanks. More precise than my post.

 

[Class377/5]

On the subject of the Finsbury Park - Moorgate route I think not just any unit will fit down the tunnels ?. Though I am unsure how much lower a 313 coach is it certainly is lower without a pantograph than Mk3 based stock. So its a limited choice as to what could be used on that route which must be why its third rail.

Nice lot of info from Class377/5 above (post 9) - thanks. More precise than my post.

An Electrostar type unit could go down there but a version of the Desiro City would make more sense as it would be more compatible with the Thameslink units.

The post was based on a lot of back history that I started to remember as I typed (ie Southern buying some of the 377/5's themselves). Hopefully explains how we got to where we are now and where we are going in the next couple of years.

TSGN should ideally go all Desiro City.

You will need some 6-car units to go along with the 8 and 12 car units (for Moorgate and secondary routes) but that basically releases enough EMUs to deal with all electrification projects in the forseable future.

If TSGN went all Desiro City you'd have to replace the 377's for no good reason. Thameslink should go all DC with 377's kept for the 'Southern' routes (also makes it clear what service your on) with 365/313 on the GN.

GN will need new EMU's in the franchise after TSGN to replace the 313's as they won't last past the 2020's.

 

[HSTEd]

If TSGN went all Desiro City you'd have to replace the 377's for no good reason. Thameslink should go all DC with 377's kept for the 'Southern' routes (also makes it clear what service your on) with 365/313 on the GN.

GN will need new EMU's in the franchise after TSGN to replace the 313's as they won't last past the 2020's.

The Class 377s can go elsewhere.
There are still plenty of Ex BR units that are going to need replacing.

 

[Class377/5]

The Class 377s can go elsewhere.
There are still plenty of Ex BR units that are going to need replacing.

Apart from replacing the 455 fleets anywhere you'd send the 377's would need massive work to fit AC equipment. Why the hell would you build new and spend millions on fitting pans when you can simply replace the ex BR units with new units and save on the 377 work.

 

[HSTEd]

Apart from replacing the 455 fleets anywhere you'd send the 377's would need massive work to fit AC equipment. Why the hell would you build new and spend millions on fitting pans when you can simply replace the ex BR units with new units and save on the 377 work.

Those units are supposed to be specified as AC ready without anything more than a heavy depot visit to fit the pantograph gear and transformers.

There are plenty of units on South Eastern and South Western that are going to need to be replaced relatively soon.

 

[Class377/5]

Those units are supposed to be specified as AC ready without anything more than a heavy depot visit to fit the pantograph gear and transformers.

There are plenty of units on South Eastern and South Western that are going to need to be replaced relatively soon.

Southeastern runs Networkers, Electrostars and Javelin trains. The Networkers are good for another 20 years. So why ex BR fleet needs replacing? Only the Networkers are ex BR and they are only 10 years older than the 377s!

Southern and SWT trains run 455/456 & 159 (SWT only) ex BR stock. The 159 routes will likely be done on AC and the 455/456 can be replaced with new build on those routes (those cascading 377s within Southern may repave the 313/455).

The Southern 313 are off to GN as they need more 313 for increased services.

But once aging why mess with a fleet and replace it with new when you just replace the stock that needs replacing and keep the 377s where they are. Your adding expensive where none need exist.

As for making the DC 377s AC, well yes there's space for the AC equipment but on-on knows what state the wiring will be in for starters. Look at the 458 conversions for proof of this. Add on the is due with updating MITRAC and its not as simple as just shoving parts in. Also who tokes the risk in all this? Risk = ££££'s. Btw they will need more then a visit to the depot to get pan, they will need shipping back to Derby as the works are extensive especially in the control parts.

What you propose is more complex and expensive then it needs to be.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There are plenty of units on South Eastern and South Western that are going to need to be replaced relatively soon.

Sorry can you name me a class on either SWT or SouthEastern that need replacing?

SWT
The 455s (and the 456s) are being re-engineered with new AC traction equipment which will see them good for another 15-20 years (by which time we may be looking at knitting being planned all the way into Waterloo).

The 158s and 159s are some of the best looked after DMUs in the business and when replaced will likely be replaced with EMUs. SWT actually got rid of newer stock because they wanted a uniform fleet. Hence the 159/1 fleet.

The 458s are being thoroughly looked at during the 458/5 conversion, and should be good for many years to come.

The rest of the fleet are Desiros and are coming up for their 10th birthday.

SouthEastern

As mentioned above operate Networkers (all recently re-engineered with AC traction equipment - Have 25 years left easily), Javelins (Only a few years old) and Electrostars.

I think neither TOC is going to want to faff around with their fleet in terms of replacing stock. It's all relatively modern.

EDIT: Why are people so quick to condemn ex BR stock? Much of it has many years of reliable service left in it. The Mk1 stock was reliable up to the end.

 

[455driver]

So your plan is to spend £100 million and reshuffle the displaced stock around!

Not exactly mindblowing is it?

Why cant people come up with ideas that are workable and cost neutral?

 

[ryan125hst]

They aren't replacing 26 trains that are 'going to FCC'; they (FCC) have already got the 23 x 377/5s, which have never worked with SN before, and 3 x 377/2, and they have had the latter for a while.

So the 26 units are effectively providing 130 additional carriages for SN, less the 48 456s.

So as far as Southern are concerned they are a significant capacity increase, just not the way that it was originally intended.

Looks like I made a typing error.

I see what you mean about the extra capacity though. I was looking at it in a slightly different (and incorrect way).

Likewise the 387s (aka 377/8s) for Thameslink are a stopgap and will move on to one of many deserving TOCS in due course. Unlikely to be Southern otherwise they would be class 377/8s wouldn't they !.

Where do you think the 387's will end up then? According to Southern's website (after having a look today), they will go to "newly electrified routes".

I thought Southern took on all 24 of the 442s? Not 17 as mentioned by the OP.

According to Wikipedia's page on Southern trains, and Southern's website, they have 17. Are the rest of them in storage?

The 377/5 were ordered to allow 10 car metro services from December 2013. As things turned out the order for 12x was increased by 11 to allow 12x 377/2 to go to Thameslink. In the end all 23x 377/5 went to Thameslink straight away with the 11x units Southern had ordered and paid for. They later were brought by the ROSCO.

The Southern franchise was let with a deal to transfer 3x 377/2 to Thameslink from Dec 2011 until the first TRSP unit (class 700) arrived in service in February 2012.

The TRSP (Thameslink Rolling Stock Project) go very late as a result of multiple issues.

So Southern who had a franchise commitment of 10 car metro routes was allowed to order 26x 377/6 to replace the Thameslink 377 for train lengthening. The 456's were coming off lease anyway in December 2013 and I believe they would have been withdrawn anyway even if the 377/5 had returned to Southern. This saved the DfT embarrassment of allowing the train lengthening to be withdrawn from the franchise agreement with all the bad press this would generate.

During the Southern franchise the WLL with its 1tph 4 car service got very busy even with the peak extras. So LO decided to extend trains to five cars. Southern/Network Rail had long wanted a 8 car 2tph service. But this required more dual voltage stock displaced from the class 700 introduction. (ie Horsham going over to 700 allowed 377s to be moved within the franchise to allow the dual voltage units to be moved from South London Metro services to the Milton Keynes run).

What Southern arranged was extra units as part if the 377/6 deal which the DfT later allowed so Southern can run 1tph South Croydon - Milton Keynes and 1tph South Croydon - Watford Junction in 2014. One as a five car, other an 8 car. Tied in with this deal for 8x 377/7 was to give Thameslink 6x 377/2 to release 6x 319s for 'Northern' in May 2014. This deal still hasn't been fully signed off.

The 387 order (also know initially as the 377/8s) is for 29x 110mph dual voltage Electrostar units for Thameslink with the units arriving between April and November 2015, to allow 29x 319s to go elsewhere. There's an option for another 35 units as a safeguard against the 700 fleet being delayed tho rumors are FGW would like to have the 35 x 387 from new to run GW services from December 2016.

Also remember that 25x 377 (DC only four car units or /1 or /4) transfer to Southeastern in December 2017 which will have a bearing on you.



Add in another 5 units, make them dual voltage and I'm sure a deal can be arranged!

I see. It's making a bit more sense now. What will replace the 25x 377's that are going to Southeastern then? Southern won't get any 387's (if they will even get any) in time as the class 700's won't be delivered yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

The 442 details are out of date, SN definitely now have them all.

The units that transfer to SE are subsequent to 700s arriving, in late 2017. It's all in the TSGN ITT, and has been discussed to death in this earlier thread on the TSGN ITT:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90383&highlight=tsgn

and is covered in the fairly detailed first post in this thread on unit cascades:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934

In starting this thread you are mostly going over old ground, I'm afraid...