My idea for more frequent timetable changes

[absolutelymilk]

Currently, the timetable changes twice a year, in May and in December. I believe this should be increased to three times a year, say January, May and September. This would have two benefits.

1. It allows the full benefit of work done over the August bank holidays and Christmas/New Year shutdowns to be felt immediately rather than waiting several months for the December/May change.

2. TOCs could provide a proper summer and leaf fall timetable - currently they have to run the same trains which are packed in summer (for seaside/countryside destinations) and then empty when the weather gets worse.

Of course this would need more printing of timetables, but now that most people check their travel online rather than with a timetable, this should not be such a big issue. Thoughts?

 

[greatkingrat]

TOCs can already run dated trains if necessary. For example the summer Saturday through XC trains to Newquay only ran until 9th September, they don't have to keep going all the way until December.

 

[absolutelymilk]

TOCs can already run dated trains if necessary. For example the summer Saturday through XC trains to Newquay only ran until 9th September, they don't have to keep going all the way until December.

Yes, but this relies on tying in with other TOCs, whereas a full timetable change would allow more flexibility

 

[The Planner]

No, just no. You can date changes to timetable periods as it is. The extra work it would cause for very little gain isnt worth it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The reason for the "dated" trains is to effectively keep the old timetable change dates while "seemingly" changing the timetable at the dates they appear to do so.

It's because the two official timetable changes are a standard Europe-wide date for timetable changes...

 

[absolutelymilk]

No, just no. You can date changes to timetable periods as it is. The extra work it would cause for very little gain isnt worth it.

I thought this could only be done where that didn't affect other TOCs?

 

[Taunton]

1. It allows the full benefit of work done over the August bank holidays and Christmas/New Year shutdowns to be felt immediately rather than waiting several months for the December/May change.

You can't do things like that, they were only done in the bad old days of British Rail, eg rebuild of London Bridge in 1976, huge works in short interval immediately followed by complete timetable change. It takes away all the ability for the contractors to find reasons nowadays to stretch the shutdown way beyond the timescale, to get extra works out of it. Did I say Goblin?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the old system of a summer and winter timetable worked better than the December approach, personally. Yes, you can have "dated" trains but it's a lot more confusing to passengers.

I don't think more than twice a year is of overall benefit.

As for the standard European change - is that really needed any more in these days of journey planners and IT systems? In the past there was no doubt a huge (actual) paper exercise - now you just load it all into HAFAS etc whenever you like.

 

[The Planner]

I thought this could only be done where that didn't affect other TOCs?

Talking to and agreeing any alteration with the TOCs is part of the day job.

 

[Spartacus]

Talking to and agreeing any alteration with the TOCs is part of the day job.

Or tweak it and hope they don't notice

Seriously though, there's barely a need for two timetable changes a year these days, most stay the same anyway and have done for some time, three would just be doing it for the sake of doing it in most cases.

 

[The Planner]

Or tweak it and hope they don't notice

Never happens, ever, nope, disgraceful practice, tsk.

 

[jimm]

Currently, the timetable changes twice a year, in May and in December. I believe this should be increased to three times a year, say January, May and September. This would have two benefits.

1. It allows the full benefit of work done over the August bank holidays and Christmas/New Year shutdowns to be felt immediately rather than waiting several months for the December/May change.

What are you on about? The Cotswold Line timetable was improved in mid-September 2011, two or three weeks after the completion of redoubling work on the route. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing stopping this kind of thing happening now, provided it is all agreed in good time.

2. TOCs could provide a proper summer and leaf fall timetable - currently they have to run the same trains which are packed in summer (for seaside/countryside destinations) and then empty when the weather gets worse.

Define a 'proper' summer timetable. While GWR may operate may operate more services to and in the West Country in the summer period, that is delivered not by cutting services elsewhere, but by moving stock around from places where it is not needed in July and August, due to lower commuter demand/no schools traffic, such as shortening formations around Bristol or shuffling Turbos and 180s around on Oxford/Cotswold duties, to free an HST or two for summer Friday and Saturday extras.

In future there will be services closer to London that need a nine-car to 10-car IET most of the year but not in late July and August, when a five-car will do, so allowing strengthening for Devon or Cornwall - you don't need a fresh timetable to allow for that.

You are aware that leaf-fall timings don't start in September, are you? Bit pointless adding padding to schedules several weeks before it is needed - and I believe Chiltern, for one, does print a small run of leaf-fall timetables for early October to December and always publicises the October changes.

 

[30907]

As for the standard European change - is that really needed any more in these days of journey planners and IT systems? In the past there was no doubt a huge (actual) paper exercise - now you just load it all into HAFAS etc whenever you like.

Over there considerable numbers of services (not just the obvious "international" trains) cross national borders and co-ordinating changes is essential.
That said, December is a stupid time for a major change - the Man in Seat 61 raises the issue every year, but no-one seems up for changing it!

 

[absolutelymilk]

What are you on about? The Cotswold Line timetable was improved in mid-September 2011, two or three weeks after the completion of redoubling work on the route. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing stopping this kind of thing happening now, provided it is all agreed in good time.

Absolutely, but for more well-used lines such as Manchester - Preston, the aimed deadline was December 2017 - when that slipped May 2018 was the next target. If the May target is just missed, then we may have to wait for another seven months to get the full benefit.

Define a 'proper' summer timetable. While GWR may operate may operate more services to and in the West Country in the summer period, that is delivered not by cutting services elsewhere, but by moving stock around from places where it is not needed in July and August, due to lower commuter demand/no schools traffic, such as shortening formations around Bristol or shuffling Turbos and 180s around on Oxford/Cotswold duties, to free an HST or two for summer Friday and Saturday extras.

Sure, and this wouldn't prevent them doing so, but if they did need to retime certain services and if this would have a big impact on other TOCs then a full timetable change might help.

You are aware that leaf-fall timings don't start in September, are you? Bit pointless adding padding to schedules several weeks before it is needed - and I believe Chiltern, for one, does print a small run of leaf-fall timetables for early October to December and always publicises the October changes.

I put September so that TOCs could match demand from schools/universities returning, but of course it could be October if this would be beneficial.

 

[DarloRich]

2 changes are year are confusing for many people. Why increase that or increase the workload on busy train planners? What is the benefit?

 

[306024]

Over there considerable numbers of services (not just the obvious "international" trains) cross national borders and co-ordinating changes is essential.
That said, December is a stupid time for a major change - the Man in Seat 61 raises the issue every year, but no-one seems up for changing it!

The price we pay for being loyal members of the EU, it’s in some EU directive or other, 2001/14/EC and subsequent amendments/directives spring to mind..........wait a minute!

I was told the French insisted on December to align with the skiing season. May or may not be true.

Given that it is possible to start planning amended timetables for engineering work between 26 and 29 weeks out, amending the base plan to a shorter timescale seems fraught with difficulty unless you work on overlapping timetables. Nice idea but the insiders in the industry will turn white at the thought of how to administer it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Over there considerable numbers of services (not just the obvious "international" trains) cross national borders and co-ordinating changes is essential.
That said, December is a stupid time for a major change - the Man in Seat 61 raises the issue every year, but no-one seems up for changing it!

I believe the December date is to allow for the commencement of ski trains, something we don't have to worry about!

There is no perfect answer to this question. For instance leaf-fall timetables are now an established feature in this country but climate change is making the actual leaf-fall season rather variable in its timing. The official season is early October to early December but some years there is no appreciable leaf-fall until well into November and problems can continue into January. On the other hand a major storm can sometimes compress most of the season into just a day or two.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

And the interpretation of leaf fall is open to each TOC to decide anyway. NR publishes the official leaffall timetable dates, but at least one TOC now applies the changes to much of the winter period as well, as they realised a few years ago that ice related adhesion problems on their steep gradients were causing as many service delays as any leaves on the line ever managed in the autumn.

Similarly although rather strangely, some TOCs elect to make leaffall changes only on mon-fri: presumably leaves don't fall at weekends?

 

[Mintona]

As traincrew, I would prefer the December change to happen in early January. The reason for this is that when the timetable changes so does the staff roster. But even though the timetable is agreed months in advance, the roster is usually completed the week before the change, meaning you often don’t know what your days off over Christmas will be until early December. This can make planning things difficult.

However, people don’t tend to have so many plans in January so a change then wouldn’t have nearly such an adverse effect.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe the December date is to allow for the commencement of ski trains, something we don't have to worry about!

I recall this bit of "European Unity" caused consternation ...September is a much better time as opposed to in the start of what can often be a grim early Winter period.

 

[jimm]

Absolutely, but for more well-used lines such as Manchester - Preston, the aimed deadline was December 2017 - when that slipped May 2018 was the next target. If the May target is just missed, then we may have to wait for another seven months to get the full benefit.

If the engineering deadline was just going to be missed, there would presumably be a discussion of whether an interim change before December was feasible. You wouldn't do it in June or July, with summer holidays on the horizon, but there would still be nothing to say an interim change could not be made in say, late September, so long as it didn't mess around any other services. It's not as if they would be starting from scratch, as you'd already have the plan for a May changeover to work from.

The odd localised issue, that can be dealt with on that basis, is not a compelling argument for having a network-wide timetable change, with all the workload that involves - especially when most services wouldn't actually be changing anyway.

Sure, and this wouldn't prevent them doing so, but if they did need to retime certain services and if this would have a big impact on other TOCs then a full timetable change might help.

Or it might just be a lot of effort for little benefit and you could just have two key timetable change points in the year and deal with summer needs in the way they have been handled for years - it's not as if most of the additional services would even be running for the whole of the validity of your 'summer timetable' anyway and in most cases in this era of regular interval timetables, they merely slot into existing service patterns, as opposed to their operation radically altering the overall timetable.

I put September so that TOCs could match demand from schools/universities returning, but of course it could be October if this would be beneficial.

Again, why go to enormous effort. In most cases, leaf-fall timetables involve tinkering around with timing allowances - such as sticking on a few minutes extra on the approach to the last stop on a service - hardly justifying making a big fuss over. The money it would take could be far better spent on vegetation clearance.

Similarly although rather strangely, some TOCs elect to make leaffall changes only on mon-fri: presumably leaves don't fall at weekends?

Looking at the amount of time added to many services at weekends, compared with weekdays, you might think leaves only fall every Saturday and Sunday, all year round...