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My idea for maximum Delay Repay threshold of 75%

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All Line Rover

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WCML will have to pay of huge sums in the repayment scheme. It feels like they're currently operating a 'free' service, given how much money they must be having to refund passengers.

Which is why Delay Repay really needs to be subject to a maximum repayment threshold of 75%, as is the practice for similar schemes in certain continental European countries. Getting a person from A to B is not a 'worthless' service no matter how late that person arrives at B (otherwise they would have abandoned their journey and received a full refund), especially over the long distances covered by TOCs such as Virgin WC.
 
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cf111

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(otherwise they would have abandoned their journey and received a full refund)
This is not always necessarily an option if your train leaves London on time but the service fails catastrophically while you are approaching Preston or York.

It would be interesting to see, if it is an infrastructure failure as the root cause for a major disruption, how much the TOCs are paid by Network Rail compared to how much they pay out in delay repay.
 

All Line Rover

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This is not always necessarily an option if your train leaves London on time but the service fails catastrophically while you are approaching Preston or York.

Being transported back home still has a value even if the arrival time is later than expected.

It would be interesting to see, if it is an infrastructure failure as the root cause for a major disruption, how much are the TOCs paid by Network Rail compared to how much they pay out in delay repay.

I would also be interested, but this is to do with the appropriateness (or otherwise) of the use of taxpayers' money, rather than the appropriateness (or otherwise) of 100% 'refunds' under Delay Repay for delays of 1h to 1h 59m and 200% for delays of 2h or more.
 

Chris M

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Being transported back home still has a value even if the arrival time is later than expected..
But what if you're not on your way home? The last delay repay I claimed for was the first leg of my outward journey.
What is the value in arriving in York two and half hours after your business meeting in Newcastle ended? You can't just hop on a train back to South because the ECML is still shut north of Peterborough. How long will it take to (a) work out what alternative routes are possible? (b) work out which of these is the quickest? (c) find out which of them your booked-trains-only Newcastle to Brighton ticket is valid on? and (d) actually get home by this route? What is the value of your time? What is the value of the work you can't do on the train home because you don't have a table seat with adjacent power socket?

What is the value of being transported somewhere you didn't want to go to, arriving later than the contract you have with the railway says they will get you to your intended destination?

How much more likely are you to travel by train next time you get a 100% refund than a 75% refund?
 

221129

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I believe, though could be wrong, that technically the contract is just to get you from A to B.
I disagree. When I buy a ticket in accordance with the time table or a journey planner itinery then that forms part of the contract.
 

mallard

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Definitely not. While I see your argument (that the railway has still provided a service, even if it was grossly substandard), the current compensation scheme is far too lenient and claim rates are far too low (due to difficult claims mechanisms, small payouts and lack of publicity from some TOCs) for it to be an incentive to run a reliable service. It's often the case that a delayed train (assuming the delay is caused by NR or another operator) is more profitable than an on-time service, since TOCs get "delay minutes" payments well before passenger compensation kicks in and the aforementioned low claim rates even if it is late enough for passengers to claim. That's utterly perverse. Running a train late (or cancelling it) should have a definite financial impact; TOCs only care about money.

I'd go completely the other way, make compensation positively punative. Something like 25% of the fare for every 15 minutes of delay with a cap of 300% or £300 (whichever is the greater) would at least make TOCs think.

If tickets were encoded with unique computer-readable identifiers (e.g. using barcodes or smartcards; if the Glasgow Subway can issue their £1.60 single fares on disposable smartcards, there's no reason why National Rail can't use them), then compensation could be completely automatic for all passengers (tickets scanned by the conductor or a fixed "pad" on board the train, meaning the exact trains used by all passengers are known) who paid on card. Passengers paying cash should be able to collect their compensation from any staffed station (or even potentially TVMs); if the railway can manage to have a system that ensures the correct TOC(s) are credited when a ticket is bought, there's no excuse for not having a system to handle refunds and compensation similarly. Unclaimed compensation (i.e. ticket is known to have been on the service, paid cash but no claim made) would be forfieted to the DfT so there is no incentive to minimise claims.

The only time compensation should have to be "applied for" is when the first train of a journey is cancelled and the passenger boarded at an ubarriered station and had no reservation. Even then, there's no reason why that could not be done simply at a ticket office.

Once you have a system where you know exactly (or nearly exactly) where each ticket was used, the ancient (while it was a good step forward in the 1980s, by today's standards it's based on a laughably simplistic model of passenger behavour and was never intended to deal with genuine competition between operators), unfit-for-purpose system known as "ORCATS" can finally be replaced and TOCs can recieve the exact correct amount of revenue for the passengers they carry. Revenue from tickets that aren't scanned for whatever reason (very short journeys, train too crowded for conductor to get through, etc.) can be aportioned proportionately based on those that are and the service levels at the relevant time.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Getting a person from A to B is not a 'worthless' service no matter how late that person arrives at B (otherwise they would have abandoned their journey and received a full refund)

You aren't contractually entitled to a full refund if you abandon a journey, you know, unless you never started it.

The TOCs make a lot of money out of delay compensation- the TSSA reckon its £200m ish)- so why shouldn't this be passed on to the people who are actually delayed?

I don't see why the fat cats should get to keep the cream here.

Delay Repay should cost money. Like EU261, the point is partly to encourage TOCs to operate a service competently first time round.

If I get home three hours late then the service I have paid for is of no value. Just like my advance ticket to would have no value if I arrived at the station three minutes late.
 

Haywain

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It would be interesting to see, if it is an infrastructure failure as the root cause for a major disruption, how much the TOCs are paid by Network Rail compared to how much they pay out in delay repay.
This is a fair question, but only when coupled with knowing how much additional expense the TOC incurs as a result of such failure. This will always be more than the amount of compensation paid out, if only because of the cost of processing compensation payments. But there will also be costs associated with providing staff (on overtime) during periods of disruption and of providing alternative transport where that applies.
 

AlterEgo

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Which is why Delay Repay really needs to be subject to a maximum repayment threshold of 75%, as is the practice for similar schemes in certain continental European countries. Getting a person from A to B is not a 'worthless' service no matter how late that person arrives at B (otherwise they would have abandoned their journey and received a full refund), especially over the long distances covered by TOCs such as Virgin WC.

If I get a pizza at Pizza Hut and it tastes awful, and I send it back for a refund, do I only get 95% back because I ate a little bit?
 

AlterEgo

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You aren't contractually entitled to a full refund if you abandon a journey, you know, unless you never started it.

This used to be the case until quite recently. Now, the NRCoT says this:

30. Your right to a refund if your train is disrupted and you choose not to travel

30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.
 

bb21

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Definitely not. While I see your argument (that the railway has still provided a service, even if it was grossly substandard), the current compensation scheme is far too lenient and claim rates are far too low (due to difficult claims mechanisms, small payouts and lack of publicity from some TOCs) for it to be an incentive to run a reliable service. It's often the case that a delayed train (assuming the delay is caused by NR or another operator) is more profitable than an on-time service, since TOCs get "delay minutes" payments well before passenger compensation kicks in and the aforementioned low claim rates even if it is late enough for passengers to claim. That's utterly perverse. Running a train late (or cancelling it) should have a definite financial impact; TOCs only care about money.
I would love to live in that simple world you seem to be so fond of. :lol:
 

All Line Rover

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But what if you're not on your way home? The last delay repay I claimed for was the first leg of my outward journey.
What is the value in arriving in York two and half hours after your business meeting in Newcastle ended? You can't just hop on a train back to South because the ECML is still shut north of Peterborough. How long will it take to (a) work out what alternative routes are possible? (b) work out which of these is the quickest? (c) find out which of them your booked-trains-only Newcastle to Brighton ticket is valid on? and (d) actually get home by this route? What is the value of your time? What is the value of the work you can't do on the train home because you don't have a table seat with adjacent power socket?

What is the value of being transported somewhere you didn't want to go to, arriving later than the contract you have with the railway says they will get you to your intended destination?

How much more likely are you to travel by train next time you get a 100% refund than a 75% refund?

I agree that condition 30 of the NRCoT, which AlterEgo refers to, would need to be amended so as to extend the meaning of 'abandoned journey' to include 'due to disruption on the outward leg, not having any time to spend at the intended destination'.
 
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matt_world2004

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I think it should work like the flight dekay compensation where serious delays result in larger than ticket price compensation. Shirt journeys should have a small threshold before DR is triggered and longer journeys a larger threshold
 

All Line Rover

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If I get a pizza at Pizza Hut and it tastes awful, and I send it back for a refund, do I only get 95% back because I ate a little bit?

No, because you contracted for a high quality pizza and did not receive any of what you bargained for. It would not do much good for Pizza Express' reputation if, in court (hypothetically), they contested your argument by asserting: "But we sell awful pizzas and the customer should have known this!".

A contract for travel is a contract to get from A to B, not a contract to get from A to B within a fixed time period. Of course, this causes problems where a delay during the course of the outward journey negates the very purpose of the overall journey being made - for example, travelling to London for a 12 noon to 2pm meeting, but not arriving until after 2pm. Which is why condition 30, as you refer to, could do with being updated. It could do with being updated even if no changes are made to Delay Repay, since Delay Repay does not provide full 'refunds' for all 'abandoned journeys' in the extended sense. For example, if one travels to London for a 12 noon to 1pm meeting, but arrives at 2:30pm (instead of 12:45pm), one would only receive a 50% 'refund' under Delay Repay if there are no delays on the return journey, even if one commenced the return journey immediately after arriving in London.*

*I would still expect most TOCs to issue a full ex-gratia refund in such a case. And the passenger could attempt to argue that, by not being able to catch their intended return train (e.g. the 1:15pm), they were not able to "complete their journey".
 
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All Line Rover

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The TOCs make a lot of money out of delay compensation- the TSSA reckon its £200m ish)- so why shouldn't this be passed on to the people who are actually delayed?

I don't see why the fat cats should get to keep the cream here.

I agree that "the fat cats shouldn't get to keep the cream". That doesn't mean that I believe the (taxpayer-funded) Network Rail should be compensating TOCs to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds a year.

I would expect any changes to Delay Repay to be consequent on changes to the rail industry's internal compensation allocation processes, to be clear.

If I get home three hours late then the service I have paid for is of no value. Just like my advance ticket to would have no value if I arrived at the station three minutes late.

You know very well the strength of that argument.
 

221129

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Thankfully the consumer rights act applies to the railway and disagrees with you. So even if delay repay was changed you could just bring a claim under the CRA and get the same result as the current delay repay scheme you are trying to get rid of.
 

221129

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A contract for travel is a contract to get from A to B, not a contract to get from A to B within a fixed time period.
Your source for this please? As the NRCoT would seem to disagree which is the contract you agree to when buying tickets. And the Consumer Rights Act would also seem to disagree.
 

Tetchytyke

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A contract for travel is a contract to get from A to B, not a contract to get from A to B within a fixed time period.

If I have an Advance ticket for a specific train, then my contract is for that specific time period. If I turn up late I lose the value of the ticket. The same- quite rightly- works in reverse with most TOCs now.

Just as with the airlines and EU261, there needs to be a financial stick to make the TOCs and Network Rail behave competently. And most disruption *is* actually caused by incompetence and negligence, be it staff shortages, train failures, signalling problems or overhead wire failures.

Even with fatalities, these are partly a consequence of the fact that most suburban stations are now essentially unstaffed. You don't see the same issues at bigger stations because platform staff will be much more likely to see the suspicious behaviour immediately prior to a fatality.
 

Tetchytyke

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And the Consumer Rights Act would also seem to disagree

Indeed, the law is now that a service must be delivered with reasonable competence and skill. And, if it's not, there can be liability for consequential loss.

Two things the industry seem to forget...
 

maniacmartin

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The NRCoT starts "When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train service" (emphasis mine). 'Scheduled' does imply to me that the trains should run according to that schedule.
 

infobleep

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If I get delayed by 15 minutes on a 7 minute journey I get 25% competition. If UK delayed by 15 minutes on a 6 hour journey, I belive I get 25% back. 15 minutes on a 6 hour journey is a lot less percentage wise vers 15 minutes on a 7 minute journey. Could length of journey time be taken into account or would t be to complicated?
 

mallard

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Even with fatalities, these are partly a consequence of the fact that most suburban stations are now essentially unstaffed. You don't see the same issues at bigger stations because platform staff will be much more likely to see the suspicious behaviour immediately prior to a fatality.

I get the impression that many/most fatalities occur outside of stations, often at level crossings (both the official sanctioned kind and the unofficial "short cut" trespassing kind). Indeed, the largest proportion of non-suicide fatalities are trespassers.

While the locations of rail suicide "hotspots" are understandably not publically reported (to prevent the "Beachy Head effect") they are known within the industry. Serveral articles that I've come accross reference that most suicides occur at "the busiest" stations, an oblique indication that there's unlikely to be much of a correlation between staffing levels and suicide locations. A quick scan of the threads on this very forum relating to disruption caused by fatalities indicates that most occur at/near busy, staffed, stations. It also appears that the number of railway suicides per year is falling faster than the overall number (~6% decrease vs. ~3.6%).

On a side note, it's interesting that Network Rail's anti-suicide strategy includes "Removing benches from all fast line platforms". Seems that's at least part of the reason why comfortable waiting areas are become increasingly rare on the railway... I'd tend to think that making railway stations a more barren and unfriendly environement would be counter-productive, but then I'm most definitely not an expert on the subject.
 

All Line Rover

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even if delay repay was changed you could just bring a claim under the CRA and get the same result as the current delay repay scheme you are trying to get rid of.

I'm not trying to get rid of Delay Repay. I make regular use of it myself. I simply feel that regular 100% / 200% 'refunds' of £100+ tickets (most often a primary consequence of suicides), accompanied by a costly rail industry loss allocation system, is not ideal.
 
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All Line Rover

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Your source for this please? As the NRCoT would seem to disagree which is the contract you agree to when buying tickets. And the Consumer Rights Act would also seem to disagree.

Conditions 12 and 13:

"12.1 You must use your Ticket on or within the date(s) that it is valid...

12.2 If, as a result of a delay to your train, your Ticket expires during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey without penalty...

13.2 ...you are allowed to make your journey on the services of any Train Company covering the journey you are making on the date(s) and by the route(s) on which your Ticket is valid."

No promise is made regarding punctuality. 12.2 expressly admits that delays may occur.

Paragraph B1 ("When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services...") is introductory, and in any case does not promise that scheduled train services will run on time.

As for the 'reasonable competence and skill' that Arctic Troll refers to, establishing this might be possible in the case of chronic staff shortages for example (*cough* London Midland *cough*), but it would otherwise be difficult, given the complexities involved in operating passenger trains, to say that the level of competence and skill exercised by a TOC is unreasonable. Are VTWC's recovery arrangements following suicides 'unreasonable', for example? A suicide south of Rugby at 2pm tends to botch the service on the VTWC network until the following morning, with delays of up to 2 hours even at 11pm. I don't think this is ideal - I think the arrangements could be improved - but I wouldn't describe the arrangements as involving "unreasonable" competence and skill.
 
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All Line Rover

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200% refunds are not available. It caps out at the ticket full value.

Not in my experience. I've had 150% 'refunds' for a 2+ hour delay in one direction and a 1-2 hour delay in the other direction, and 200% 'refunds' for (the very rare instances of) 2+ hour delays in both directions.

If a refund was issued by the ticket seller (a genuine refund) rather than by the delayed TOC, this couldn't happen.
 

yorksrob

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I don't really see the value of this proposal. What problem would it solve ?
 

matt_world2004

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Not in my experience. I've had 150% 'refunds' for a 2+ hour delay in one direction and a 1-2 hour delay in the other direction, and 200% 'refunds' for (the very rare instances of) 2+ hour delays in both directions.

If a refund was issued by the ticket seller (a genuine refund) rather than by the delayed TOC, this couldn't happen.
What delay reoay scheme gives a greater value than the ticket purchased.
 

sheff1

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Being transported back home still has a value even if the arrival time is later than expected.

Being transported back home has no value if home is not where you want to be.

I am sure I am not the only person who makes journeys which necessitate being away from home for a day or days.

Say, for example, on Monday I travelled from Sheffield to Edinburgh but the train was that late that (i) I missed the planned appointment (ii) a Delay Repay for 100% of my Advance ticket was due under current rules. There is zero value in being transported back home on Monday if I have a hotel booked in Edinburgh that evening in readiness for another appointment first thing on Tuesday.
 
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