My idea for 'Manchester Crossrail' through services

[anti-pacer]

After the new EMU's are delivered to Northern, could certain services be introduced, such as;

Hadfield/Glossop-Manchester-Eccles-Wigan
Hazel Grove-Manchester-Bolton-Preston

Also, what's happening with Stalybridge being electrified, and is the Warrington Central route likely to be wired?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

After the new EMU's are delivered to Northern, could certain services be introduced, such as;

Hadfield/Glossop-Manchester-Eccles-Wigan
Hazel Grove-Manchester-Bolton-Preston

They could but --- what value do they bring?

Also, what's happening with Stalybridge being electrified - ?

Dec 2017 - feed is needed from Stalybridge National Grid feeder station for Manchester - Blackpool.

-- and is the Warrington Central route likely to be wired?

It is on the list as reasonably high priority but all the betting money is going for 2024-2029 timeframe - not too likely to be before but the winter Electrification RUS refresh may tell us more.

 

[snowball]

Hadfield-Wigan would involve trains crossing the full width of the throat at Picc, which is usually regarded as a bad thing. Part of the purpose of the Ordsall Chord is to reduce it. Or do you mean via Vic?

Isn't there already a Hazel Grove - Preston service? Currently diesel?

Wiring of Victoria - Stalybridge is supposed to be completed by Dec 2017, like Manchester-Preston.

 

[Bevan Price]

After the new EMU's are delivered to Northern, could certain services be introduced, such as;

Hadfield/Glossop-Manchester-Eccles-Wigan
Hazel Grove-Manchester-Bolton-Preston

Also, what's happening with Stalybridge being electrified, and is the Warrington Central route likely to be wired?

Warrington Central route is not included in current electrification schemes. Would be sensible - but doubt if it will occur for at least 10 years - and then only if Hope Valley line to Sheffield is also electrified.

Hazel Grove - Preston/ Blackpool already operates, as a dmu service, so something similar will probably occur - initially worked by Class 319 rather than new units.

I doubt that Hadfield/Glossop to Manchester will be extended anywhere - that would create too many conflicting movements between Ardwick Jn & Piccadilly.

 

[snowball]

Warrington Central route is not included in current electrification schemes. Would be sensible - but doubt if it will occur for at least 10 years - and then only if Hope Valley line to Sheffield is also electrified.

I think it had a higher priority than Hope Valley in the Northern Sparks study.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think it had a higher priority than Hope Valley in the Northern Sparks study.

Correct - but lower than Calder Valley which would come first - so I would suggest 10 years hence.

 

[anti-pacer]

Hadfield-Wigan would involve trains crossing the full width of the throat at Picc, which is usually regarded as a bad thing. Part of the purpose of the Ordsall Chord is to reduce it. Or do you mean via Vic?

Isn't there already a Hazel Grove - Preston service? Currently diesel?

Wiring of Victoria - Stalybridge is supposed to be completed by Dec 2017, like Manchester-Preston.

Don't the TPE Scarborough-Liverpool services have to cross the throat at Piccadilly?

I think my suggestion may be better if either the Warrington Central line or the Atherton line were electrified. However is there demand for cross Manchester traffic? Birmingham's Cross City service certainly shows such traffic.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In terms of future service provision nobody can say with much certainty other than one of the Airport stoppers will be linked to the Chat Moss stopper. On the Piccadilly side, as has been suggested, the only services that can be linked are those which approach from the Slade Lane Jn direction, anything else forms a highly undesirable conflicting movement between Ardwick Jn and Piccadilly. It also seems unlikely that anything from the Macclesfield line will be linked though with the 323s eventually moving away the performance reasons for that "restriction" will be changing anyway. Then there's the question of whether any paths on the Ordsall chord itself will be available for purely local services or not. And then throw in the issue of connecting the Wigan area to Piccadilly; it seems likely at present that the only such services may be from North Western station only, I don't know whether local politics will affect this or not. The only obvious drivers are the need to avoid services terminating at Victoria and a franchise commitment to at least an hourly connection between Stockport and Bolton. Feel free to get the crayons out!

 

[yorkie]

Don't the TPE Scarborough-Liverpool services have to cross the throat at Piccadilly?

Correct. But please, no more!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

But isn't the Northern franchise change currently suspended by the CMA?

 

[IanXC]

Don't the TPE Scarborough-Liverpool services have to cross the throat at Piccadilly?

Correct. But please, no more!

In due course this one too will be removed - the Scarborough to Liverpool will operate via Victoria and Newton le Willows, the replacement Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington doesn't cause the same throat issues at Piccadilly.

I might be wrong/out of date, but my recollection of the future North TPE is:

2tph Victoria-Chat Moss-Liverpool
2tph Victoria-Ordsall-Piccadilly-Airport
2tph terminating at Piccadilly

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think my suggestion may be better if either the Warrington Central line or the Atherton line were electrified. However is there demand for cross Manchester traffic? Birmingham's Cross City service certainly shows such traffic.

That was the whole point of building the Hazel Grove and Windsor Bridge links 25 years ago, and led to a number of cross-Manchester workings.
Some of them had to be diverted because of congestion through Oxford Road, but now the Ordsall Chord and expansion at Piccadilly/Oxford Road is to address that, as well as the TPE "Scarborough" problem.
The only constraint is the limited number of electrified routes, which will take a decade or so to resolve.
Then there's "HS3", and some options show yet another cross-city route running under Piccadilly and out to Miles Platting.
Until then it's one step at a time.

 

[thealexweb]

In due course this one too will be removed - the Scarborough to Liverpool will operate via Victoria and Newton le Willows, the replacement Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington doesn't cause the same throat issues at Piccadilly.

I might be wrong/out of date, but my recollection of the future North TPE is:

2tph Victoria-Chat Moss-Liverpool
2tph Victoria-Ordsall-Piccadilly-Airport
2tph terminating at Piccadilly

Terminating more services on Manchester's through platforms (even with up to four of them)? Great
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After the new EMU's are delivered to Northern, could certain services be introduced, such as;

Hadfield/Glossop-Manchester-Eccles-Wigan
Hazel Grove-Manchester-Bolton-Preston

Also, what's happening with Stalybridge being electrified, and is the Warrington Central route likely to be wired?

The only progress we have on your proposals is the commitment to a half hourly Bolton to Stockport service as part of the new Northern franchise.

 

[IanXC]

Terminating more services on Manchester's through platforms (even with up to four of them)? Great

I'm sorry do what about a who now?

Nothing TPE will terminate in the through platforms, 2 will pass through on their way to the Airport, 2 wont come anywhere near Piccadilly on their way to Liverpool, and the other 2 will terminate at Piccadilly via Guide Bridge.

 

[thealexweb]

I'm sorry do what about a who now?

Nothing TPE will terminate in the through platforms, 2 will pass through on their way to the Airport, 2 wont come anywhere near Piccadilly on their way to Liverpool, and the other 2 will terminate at Piccadilly via Guide Bridge.

I do not believe this is correct. In the future TPE will not use Guide Bridge except for diversions. Everything will be Manchester Victoria and then the Orsdall Chord if access to Piccadilly is needed.

 

[IanXC]

I do not believe this is correct. In the future TPE will not use Guide Bridge except for diversions. Everything will be Manchester Victoria and then the Orsdall Chord if access to Piccadilly is needed.

Heres First's own diagram of their proposed services: http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/mediafile/100425665/transformingjourneys.pdf

As you'll see from the service lines, the Leeds-Manchester (shown in pink) and the Hull-Manchester (shown in yellow) both go directly to Piccadilly avoiding Victoria.

 

[glbotu]

As has already been discussed on the Northern Franchise Awarded to Arriva thread, getting trains from one side of Manchester to the Other is surprisingly difficult, due to the nature of where the suburban services run. Hazel Grove to Preston will run, I believe as a 2tph service already, but the Hadfield service certainly won't.

Anything that's going to be running via the "through" platforms at Piccadilly will be going either to the Airport or via Stockport (even then, the Stockport services do still eat up paths across the Piccadilly throat), hence why Stalybridge - Victoria is being wired up, to reduce Victoria terminators from the West of Manchester. "Suburban(ish)" services (post 2019) are:

West
-----
2tph from Newton-le-Willows (Electric)
2tph from Warrington (Diesel)
1tph from Kirkby (Diesel)
2tph from Southport (Diesel)
2tph from Preston (Electric)
2tph from Blackburn (Diesel)
3tph from Wigan (Diesel)

East
-----
2tph from Hadfield (Electric)
2tph from Rose Hill (Diesel)
2tph from New Mills (Diesel)
2tph from Hazel Grove (1 Electric, 1 Diesel)
2tph from Stalybridge (Electric)
2tph from Rochdale (Diesel)
2tph from Alderley Edge (Electric)
2tph from Macclesfield (Electric)
2tph from Crewe (Electric)
2tph from Altrincham (Diesel)
2tph from Airport (Electric)

Without having significant Diesel under the Wires, you need to match up electric services with electric services. Additionally, due to the inability to interchange without going all the way into Manchester and out again, you need a decent service from each branch to each "line" (Oxford Road Corridor and Victoria).

Linking these up, you're probably looking at

Blackburn - Rochdale (2tph - Diesel)
Newton-le-Willows - Stalybridge (1tph - Electric)
Newton-le-Willows - Airport (1tph - Electric)
Warrington - Stalybridge (1tph - Diesel)
Warrington - Airport (1tph - Diesel)
Preston - Hazel Grove (1tph Electric, 1tph Diesel to Buxton)
Kirkby/Southport/Wigan - Victoria (6tph Diesel)
Alderley Edge/Macclesfield/Crewe/Altrincham/Hadfield/NewMills/Rose Hill - Picc (14tph - Mixture)

 

[tbtc]

is there demand for cross Manchester traffic? Birmingham's Cross City service certainly shows such traffic

I don't know how much "cross city" demand there is on the "Cross City" line, but if a significant number are going from one side of Birmingham to the other then I suppose it may be because the southern side contains stops convenient for the University and a major employer (Longbridge) as well as another stop more convenient for some parts of the City Centre (Fiveways, which I guess is like a Brummie version of Oxford Road/ Deansgate).

But even if there is no "cross city" demand in Birmingham then it makes sense to couple the two services together to avoid wasting New Street platforms being occupied by several terminating services per hour.

Manchester is a different beast, which has a much messier service pattern (due to the need to give everywhere a direct Airport link and the need to give everywhere a direct Piccadilly link).

This creates more than a few headaches/ conflicts. You'll never solve the airport problem (nine or ten trains an hour with around thirty five passengers on board is a waste of capacity, but nowhere will want to see their services cut).

So we get situations like Southport, where passengers have two trains an hour departing from different Manchester stations, rather than a simple half hourly train, because it "needs" an Airport service.

The "direct link to Piccadilly" question may be solveable - we see a lot of arguments along the line of "X needs a direct link to Piccadilly because that's where the better connections are" which becomes a self-fulfilling argument.

Hopefully, with the money being spent on Manchester we'll see services simplified a bit more to make the most of capacity.

The only obvious drivers are the need to avoid services terminating at Victoria and a franchise commitment to at least an hourly connection between Stockport and Bolton. Feel free to get the crayons out!

I love a challenge like that

Everything from the Oxford Road side runs beyond Piccadilly (terminating things in the Mayfield sidings is a waste of space at 13/14

95% of Oxford Road services go through to the Airport (politically, I think that there needs to be something from Stockport to Bolton, but conflicting moves like these should be minimised)

95% of Airport services go through to Oxford Road

Ideally, if the Warrington Central Line were electrified then I'd suggest an Airport pattern of something like

• 4x hour to Liverpool via Warrington Central (mixture of stopping patterns as per today)
• 2x hour to Leeds via Victoria
• 2x hour to Bolton and beyond

(six/ hour would probably suit Airport demand better but...)

The problem is that the unelectrified line west of Oxford Road is the Warrington Central one whilst the unelectrified lines to the east of Oxford Road are beyond Stockport (Sheffield, Buxton, Cardiff, Knutsford), so any attempt to simplify the service patterns (to avoid conflicts at Slade) would mean a lot of DMUs under the wires.

If we want to make the most of scarce DMUs then how do we use them better (to avoid sending DMUs to the Airport) without creating lots of conflicts (by switching Oxford Road services over to the Stockport lines)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

City centre diesel pollution issues are rising up the agenda, notably in Birmingham and London.
Manchester is slightly better off with an elevated railway, but Victoria is still a smelly underground hole.
You would get a different priority list for electrification if air quality becomes a factor in business cases.
It might get Buxton, Southport, Rochdale and the CLC route up the list, providing more end-to-end electric routes.

 

[notlob.divad]

I do not believe this is correct. In the future TPE will not use Guide Bridge except for diversions. Everything will be Manchester Victoria and then the Orsdall Chord if access to Piccadilly is needed.

I thought the two Hull services would approach via Guide Bridge and terminate at Piccadilly.

The Scarborough to Liverpool and Newcastle to Liverpool don't go to Piccadilly.
The TPE from Leeds direction to the airport will go via both Victoria and Piccadilly.
The Hull trains will just got to Piccadilly as they currently do.

To avoid anymore snarling up of the Piccadilly - ORoad corridor, Hadfield/Glossop services to go beyond Piccadilly will either have to be tram train metrolink extensions or go via Victoria, and even then is is doubtful.

What I could see happening in x Number of Years is something like a Hadfield to Warrington Central Metrolink Tram-Train. It would link from Guide Bridge to Auldenshaw, and/or from Ashburys to the Velo Park. On the western end it would link from Pomona onto an Electrified CLC to Warrington Central replacing the current all stops services. All stops services west of Warrington Central would transfer onto the Merseyrail Network. But you would still get 2-3 through trains / hour.

 

[edwin_m]

Another important difference between cross-city routes is that the one in Birmingham has grade separation of its most severe potential conflict (Proof House). The only grade-separated junctions in Manchester are on Metrolink!

Despite running far from fully loaded, I don't believe the Airport service should be reduced. It provides a terminating point for trains approaching Manchester from the west in much the same way as Rochdale and Stalybridge do, so running fewer trains to the airport would probably result in service reductions on other routes too. Minimising the number of airport passengers changing trains at Piccadilly with huge amounts of luggage probably helps the operation there too, quite apart from the benefits to passengers of a through journey.

 

[Starmill]

Despite running far from fully loaded, I don't believe the Airport service should be reduced. It provides a terminating point for trains approaching Manchester from the west in much the same way as Rochdale and Stalybridge do, so running fewer trains to the airport would probably result in service reductions on other routes too. Minimising the number of airport passengers changing trains at Piccadilly with huge amounts of luggage probably helps the operation there too, quite apart from the benefits to passengers of a through journey.

Except for the service from Cleethorpes, which will have to continue doing its awkward and rather wasteful reversal. It's also worth considering that all of those empty fast trains are to the detriment of the five stations between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, where the stoppers are much better loaded than the 2tph fast from North TP. The requirement for more than one through fast train from York, Leeds and Huddersfield per hour to Manchester Airport was always silly.

 

[Kite159]

What would probably be good for a so-called "crossrail" if that all trains via the Oxford Road corridor called at Deansgate , for connections to Metrolink (to save passengers wanting to travel to say Media City having to double back on themselves from Piccadilly).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What would probably be good for a so-called "crossrail" if that all trains via the Oxford Road corridor called at Deansgate , for connections to Metrolink (to save passengers wanting to travel to say Media City having to double back on themselves from Piccadilly).

Oxford Road and Deansgate are just half a mile apart. Oxford Road's platforms are to be rebuilt and extended: given the sharp curve at the Piccadilly end the extensions are more likely to be at the Deansgate end bringing the platforms of the two stations even closer together. Given the pathing difficulties that a stop at Deansgate brings I would suggest that in the longer term it would be better to completely close the platforms there and convert the station buildings to an additional entrance to Oxford Road with a travellator link between the two.

 

[SprinterMan]

Oxford Road and Deansgate are just half a mile apart. Oxford Road's platforms are to be rebuilt and extended: given the sharp curve at the Piccadilly end the extensions are more likely to be at the Deansgate end bringing the platforms of the two stations even closer together. Given the pathing difficulties that a stop at Deansgate brings I would suggest that in the longer term it would be better to completely close the platforms there and convert the station buildings to an additional entrance to Oxford Road with a travellator link between the two.

I agree, we could well end up with a Manchester Victoria/Exchange situation between the two otherwise :P

 

[David Goddard]

Completely get the two TPE Liverpool trains going through Victoria instead of Piccadilly- it offers a split of stations for traffic from Leeds, plus releases a Picc-Liverpool path via Warrington.
I have not seen any reference to the time delay which will be added to TP services routed Stalybridge - Victoria - Ordsall - Ox Road - Piccadilly, compared to the direct routing through Ardwick. It presently takes twelve minutes from Stalybridge to either station, and I reckon on further twelve to do the circuit between stations, so this addition may not go down too well with users of the service.
I much prefer the status quo, with reversal at Picc, which could be eased by use of more central platforms (ie so they cross the formation in two halves) rather than those at the outer ends like when an MIA to York service comes into P1.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oxford Road and Deansgate are just half a mile apart. Oxford Road's platforms are to be rebuilt and extended: given the sharp curve at the Piccadilly end the extensions are more likely to be at the Deansgate end bringing the platforms of the two stations even closer together. Given the pathing difficulties that a stop at Deansgate brings I would suggest that in the longer term it would be better to completely close the platforms there and convert the station buildings to an additional entrance to Oxford Road with a travellator link between the two.

There is an overbridge link, recently renewed, from Deansgate station to the Manchester Metrolink Deansgate-Castlefield stop on the other side of the road.