My idea for FGW on the Arun Valley?

[159jim]

Hi

I'm not trying to act immature, but I'm saying it COULD be possible for FGW to extend its Southampton terminators to Horsham and possibly Gatwick/Croydon/Victoria, but in my idea, this would sacrifice some of Southern's Southampton-London services, but here's my timetabled theory

1111 off Westbury
1220 arrive Soton (Change to Fratton crew or not)
1225 depart (Yes, I know this is 12 mins late for the 1213 but hey)
1400 arrive Horsham AND POSSIBLY
1500 arrive Victoria
1850 depart
2120 back at Southampton in time for the 2120 service to WSB

What does everyone think of my theory?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I hate to be blunt, but I'll ask anyway: why?

- Changing at Southampton Central onto SWT is infinitely quicker to London;
- There's 4tph between So'ton and Fareham, for connections onto Portsmouth, 2 of which continue onto Barnham for Bognor Regis, Littlehampton and stations to Brighton, 1 of which continues onto London Victoria via Horsham and Gatwick;
- I suspect there's a severe lack of a convenient path between Three Bridges and London;
- The 158 is probably used on other duties at So'ton during the times you suggest;
- A 158 wouldn't provide enough capacity further into London from intermediate stops;
- The call for direct trains from Westbury and Salisbury to West Sussex and Gatwick is probably minimal, and the rest of the route is covered by what is explained in my first point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why would you want to scrap the existing Southern service in favour of this too, especially with the vast reduction in capacity? Don't forget, it also needs to couple to a 377 at Horsham in that case!

 

[Lrd]

Sorry but why?

Why waste the use of FGWs stock on a service that is miles away from their network.
Why would you want to send a 2/3 coach 158 into Victoria and back out in the peak?
Why do you want to replace an electric train with a diesel?
Why is there a 3hr50m wait at Victoria? They need as many platforms they can get, especially so in the peak.
What's wrong with the one change at Southampton with a 13min wait for the Southern service off the Cardiff - Pompey service?

 

[159jim]

I'm not say it is possible, I'm sort of using my imagination, but it sort of is possible.
As for peak crowding, the down service would be picking up only until around Horsham, and as for the Bognors and the other Soton to Victorias being caught out I'm sure they would find a couple of spare 377 sets at Horsham to attach to the single Bognore service that has been 'abandoned' by the incompatible DMU. And as for the 1227 back up to Westbury, and the 2050 from Westbury, In reality it's not uncommon for double sets to be used on the Southampton terminators. So for the 1227 they could use a 153 or something and detach at Southampton, and for the 2050 from Chelthenham Spa, I know this is worked by the hire-in 158 so they could attach that for the remainder of the journey to BRI

 

[Lrd]

In reality it's not uncommon for double sets to be used on the Southampton terminators.

I think I have only ever seen a double set once and that was the evening service. It is usually a 158 or sometimes a 150, very occasionally a 153.

So for the 1227 they could use a 153 or something and detach at Southampton

Are you now seriously suggesting using a 153 on the extended service to Victoria?

 

[159jim]

Are you now seriously suggesting using a 153 on the extended service to Victoria?

Nah I was suggesting take it down to Soton from Westbury, and detach it there for use on the 1227 to GMV, but it would be interesting to take it to Victoria lol (Considering the overcrowding and what would happen to the below door 'ladder' lol)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I have only ever seen a double set once and that was the evening service. It is usually a 158 or sometimes a 150, very occasionally a 153.

They do it to the 0823 off SOU on Saturdays it's usually the hire-in unit and a 150

 

[NSE]

I'd love to see the people at East Croydon reacting to a 153 in lieu of 8-12 carriages of Electrostar.

 

[wintonian]

I'd love to see the people at East Croydon reacting to a 153 in lieu of 8-12 carriages of Electrostar.

More importantly I doubt too many first class season ticket holders would notice much of a difference.

 

[N Levers]

I'm sure Southern would be in favour of this. But just to be fair (they would be losing a soton to london path) I would give them a fast WCML path to Glasgow etc. so they can extend their West London Line service to run South Croydon - Glasgow...

 

[A-driver]

You wouldn't be able to run a diesel into Victoria anyway-they are banned from the station except for very exceptional
Circumstances due to it being an underground station.

 

[wintonian]

You wouldn't be able to run a diesel into Victoria anyway-they are banned from the station except for very exceptional
Circumstances due to it being an underground station.

Plenty of diesels seem to run through New Street - unless that's a bit different for some reason?

 

[A-driver]

New street isn't fully underground and has ventilation for diesels. The sectional appendix prohibits diesels from the Brighton side of Victoria unless in exceptional circumstances-platforms 18&19 at vic have extractor fans which come out above platform 9 but they were designed for thumpers and aren't strong enough for regular use today.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So are they freely permitted as per the other 99% of the network into the SE / Chatham line side? I also assume that's the reason the Uckfield 171s run into London Bridge too?

 

[A-driver]

They are free to run into the eastern side as are steamers. I don't know if that's the exclusive reason uckfield a run to London bridge but I know the fans on platform 18/19 are spaced for slam door diesels, not 170s.

 

[steamybrian]

I agree- DMUs are prohibited to Victoria Central side platforms 9-19.
In regard to pathing of trains up the Arun Valley line there is no path for a up train from the Southampton direction arriving Horsham at 1400. If extended to Victoria where would you stable the train until after the evening peak because you cannot leave it in the platform as they are used to capacity in the evening peak hour.
Finally how many coaches would this train have? Anything less a minimum of 8 coaches is a non-starter because trains on this line via Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, etc require it to carry the sheer volume of passengers.

 

[NSE]

Well (assuming the service was actually being considered) you could stable it at either two SN stabling points just south of Victoria, and there's the Grosvenor Sidings and Stewarts Lane, but that would just be ball ache trying to get it out from the platform and into the stabling points without disrupting the service, and also off peak Southerns ones are fairly full anyway.

I still would love to see it turn up Platform 1 East Croydon.

 

[159jim]

Well (assuming the service was actually being considered) you could stable it at either two SN stabling points just south of Victoria, and there's the Grosvenor Sidings and Stewarts Lane, but that would just be ball ache trying to get it out from the platform and into the stabling points without disrupting the service, and also off peak Southerns ones are fairly full anyway.

I still would love to see it turn up Platform 1 East Croydon.

This might be a waste of time and fuel, but there might be enough time to take it to OOC and back seeing as its FGW

 

[Lrd]

Why not avoid London and send it up the WCML to Rugby and back?

 

[MCR247]

Instead of Victoria, why not send it to Whitehaven or somewhere?

 

[tsr]

How about reversing at Redhill and sending it to Tonbridge with some sort of compatible FGW DMU attached from an extended North Downs Line service? And vice versa.

"This is your 1545 First Great Western service to Westbury and Oxford. This train will call at Leigh, Penshurst, Edenbridge, Godstone, Nutfield and Redhill, where the train will divide. The front 2 coaches will continue to Oxford. The rear 2 coaches will continue to Westbury via Southampton Central."

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Again, is there much demand for a through service from Tonbridge to Horsham, the Solent and Wiltshire? Especially one that couldn't be catered for via existing services (i.e. changing at Waterloo East for Salisbury or at Redhill and Horsham for the Solent)?

 

[bnm]

I've seen some bonkers suggestions for services over the years, usually though as a fantasy scenario where money is no object and operational issues are ignored. It would appear though that the OP is serious with this suggestion.

Every station along the proposed route, except Romsey and the tiny Dilton Marsh, already has a direct service to London. Others have already pointed out the rolling stock issues - would anyone really want to travel for 3 hours plus on a draughty 3+2 Class 150, or be crammed into a single 153 when for operational reasons these have to deputise for a 158?

FGW already would rather they didn't have to serve Brighton, as it is a nightmare to roster staff and allocate stock for. They have to because it is a franchise commitment.

There is no way a franchising authority would put the OP's proposed service into the Greater Western franchise, so it would be up to the franchisee to run the service in addition to franchised commitments. That would mean it needing to pay it's way and show a decent return from fares revenue.

Then there's the TOCs through who's area this silly idea for a service is to run. There's already competition here and there will be loud protests from them about fares abstraction.

Finally, where are the passengers for such a service?

 

[Captain Chaos]

With regards to North Downs services I have always thought they would be better served by starting the Gatwick services at Oxford or perhaps Newbury.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the Redhill stoppers extended to Tonbridge (like they were in BR days I think?) as this would not only cut out a 20 minute wait but also provide better half-hourly options from Reading and Guildford with one direct and one change at Redhill. I also wouldn't mind working down there either!

Though with regards to the OP's suggestion, I don't really understand the point of the service. Most of the people I see on my trains on the North Downs from Westbury and beyond are either going to places like Aldershot, Guildford, North Camp, Haslemere, Dorking, Redhill, Tonbridge, Croydon, Tonbridge, Brighton, Crawley and Gatwick. Very rare I see anyone for Horsham. I cannot see any demand for such a service sadly. Certainly not one for sending a unit miles from it's normal area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I would have though that people from Westbury have the option of both Waterloo and Paddington. Passengers could change at Clapham Junction if they really wanted to get to Victoria. Surely the fact they can make a simple change is more beneficial than a round the houses trip that takes much longer?

 

[tsr]

With regards to North Downs services I have always thought they would be better served by starting the Gatwick services at Oxford or perhaps Newbury.

I also wouldn't mind seeing the Redhill stoppers extended to Tonbridge (like they were in BR days I think?) as this would not only cut out a 20 minute wait but also provide better half-hourly options from Reading and Guildford with one direct and one change at Redhill. I also wouldn't mind working down there either!

Though with regards to the OP's suggestion, I don't really understand the point of the service. Most of the people I see on my trains on the North Downs from Westbury and beyond are either going to places like Aldershot, Guildford, North Camp, Haslemere, Dorking, Redhill, Tonbridge, Croydon, Tonbridge, Brighton, Crawley and Gatwick. Very rare I see anyone for Horsham. I cannot see any demand for such a service sadly. Certainly not one for sending a unit miles from it's normal area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I would have though that people from Westbury have the option of both Waterloo and Paddington. Passengers could change at Clapham Junction if they really wanted to get to Victoria. Surely the fact they can make a simple change is more beneficial than a round the houses trip that takes much longer?

I don't think anyone was really suggesting North Downs Line services go to Horsham - personally, I was suggesting some would go to Gatwick (as now) and some would run through to Tonbridge. The DMU from Westbury would attach to run from Redhill to Tonbridge. This would allow the existing Southern service between London Bridge/Redhill and Tonbridge to be removed, perhaps permitting a couple of 377s to be freed up to run from Redhill up to Watford Junction (instead of running from South Croydon Purley or Coulsdon Town, thus extending the effective Southern WLL terminus). You'd then have a use for Platform 4 at Redhill. Furthermore, if the FGW service were to run to Tonbridge, it would allow Kent to achieve better connections to CrossCountry and "intercity" services without the need to cross London. You only have to look at the connections available from Reading or Southampton Central to realise that a single change onto these from any station West of (and including) Tonbridge would not be a bad thing.

And maybe it would be better to send the train up the BML from Brighton? You'd have to be mad to suggest it, though - there are supposedly no paths for that sort of idea, and FGW would hate rostering and allocating even more than they do now...

 

[Twoonthebuzzer]

FGW class 153 units aren't permitted to go east of Southampton anyway, hence they are never seen on the Pompey line.

 

[Lrd]

FGW class 153 units aren't permitted to go east of Southampton anyway, hence they are never seen on the Pompey line.

Fairly sure they just aren't allowed into Pompey due to some issues with door steps?

 

[Goatboy]

Good idea, they could then run it with a 150 due to stock shortages like they do most of the other non-Cardiff long-haul services, whilst SWT send 158's back and forth between Lymington and Brockenhurst

 

[Twoonthebuzzer]

Fairly sure they just aren't allowed into Pompey due to some issues with door steps?

No, they aren't allowed past Southampton due to the sharp curves around the Woolston/St Denys area. The unit went down there many years ago and took part of the platform away due to it not bring able to "swing" round the curve.

 

[Lrd]

No, they aren't allowed past Southampton due to the sharp curves around the Woolston/St Denys area. The unit went down there many years ago and took part of the platform away due to it not bring able to "swing" round the curve.

I had a funny feeling it was also something to do with some curves but then thought that other 23m carriage stock can go round them. Guess this is one of the "quirks" of the 153s.

 

[159jim]

So would 153s be aloud to Pompey if there was Eastleigh diverts?