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My idea for double-decker commuter trains

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pwl2706

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Hi all,

(I'm on a roll now)

I know that currently we cannot have double-decker commuter trains into out cities due to low bridges, and so on, but isn't this something that we're going to have to consider in the longer term? Already our commuter trains are at full capaity arriving into London (and probably otehr major cities too)

Of course, this would mean a vast civil engineering project, but isn't that the kind of thing that George Osbourne/Boris like to talk about?

oh wait... yes, I'm going to suggest it...

how about we make the GWML and ECML able to take double-decker rolling stock to increase long-term capacity to Scotland instead of HS3 (HS 4, 5, 6)?

(covers head in fear)

BTW, I should just clarify that I know nothing about engineering - I like to think of myself as an ideas man :D
 
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najaB

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First off, I can see your post count is relatively low so welcome to the forum. Secondly, try using the search function and you'll find this has been done to death. I'm not using my PC right now, or I would point you in the direction of the appropriate threads.
 

NSEFAN

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pwl2706 said:
I know that currently we cannot have double-decker commuter trains into out cities due to low bridges, and so on, but isn't this something that we're going to have to consider in the longer term? Already our commuter trains are at full capaity arriving into London (and probably otehr major cities too)

Of course, this would mean a vast civil engineering project, but isn't that the kind of thing that George Osbourne/Boris like to talk about?

oh wait... yes, I'm going to suggest it...

how about we make the GWML and ECML able to take double-decker rolling stock to increase long-term capacity to Scotland instead of HS3 (HS 4, 5, 6)?
The issue is one of loading gauge. Because the UK's railways were historically built to a very restrictive loading gauge, off-the-shelf double decker train designs aren't compatible with our infrastructure. This is not just in terms of height, but also things like platform edges. All our rolling stock is designed with the current loading gauge in mind, so the only way to change from one gauge to another is by having a step change in the rolling stock used. This is a high-risk strategy: should you find something wrong with the entire fleet you're going to have some very angry commuters on Monday morning!

There is also the issue of dwell time. If you have a double-decker train with (for the sake of argument) twice as many people on board, you will inherently increase the time required for station calls because the number of doors won't have increased much, if at all. This means the overall line capacity is actually reduced because trains take longer to call at stations. You might get away with this on intercity trains but it's a non-starter for commuter trains.

And finally there is the issue of disruption. Even if moving towards double-decker trains was cheaper than building a new line, it would be just as disruptive as your previous idea for double-decker railway lines. You can't do much work while trains are running, meaning you need long weekend possessions to do the gauge clearance work. The railway is so busy now that it's just not acceptable to have weekend after weekend of total line closures.

A new railway also has the advantage that no trains need to use it whilst it's being built, so it can be constructed in a shorter time than it'd take to modify an existing one. You also have lower risk to workers as a result. A new railway can also be built to the latest engineering standards to make it easier to maintain and more resilient to extreme weather than the Victorian railways we currently use.

Both financially and politically, it's generally cheaper to build a new railway than to massively modify the existing one. Adding an additional running line in parallel isn't so difficult, although is again slower and more disruptive than building a new line.
 
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swt_passenger

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Geezertronic

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Does someone have a blank cheque for the billions & billions of pounds this would cost, along with the massive and lengthy disruption this would cause across the length of the routes mentioned... :D

It's almost worth building a new route - lets call it HS2 ;)
 

swt_passenger

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Seems a long way round?;)

Given the same diversion appears in the same poster's proposal for improving the GWML and ECML in order to avoid building HS2, I'm now wondering it he is simply confusing the the GWML and WCML with one another...
 

Phil.

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Hi all,

(I'm on a roll now)

I know that currently we cannot have double-decker commuter trains into out cities due to low bridges, and so on, but isn't this something that we're going to have to consider in the longer term? Already our commuter trains are at full capaity arriving into London (and probably otehr major cities too)

Of course, this would mean a vast civil engineering project, but isn't that the kind of thing that George Osbourne/Boris like to talk about?

oh wait... yes, I'm going to suggest it...

how about we make the GWML and ECML able to take double-decker rolling stock to increase long-term capacity to Scotland instead of HS3 (HS 4, 5, 6)?

(covers head in fear)

BTW, I should just clarify that I know nothing about engineering - I like to think of myself as an ideas man :D

You're not wrong there old mate.
 

richieb1971

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I know what I am about to propose is a bit complex but here goes.


Using the reservation seat system you put commuters for station stop 1 in certain carriages, commuters for station 2 in certain carriages and so on.

You make the train about 25 carriages long and the train stops so that the carriages are always aligned with the platform that the people want to get off at.

Using the information speaker and dot matrix announcer you can get commuters down the train to the right carriages before it stops.

*edit* I suppose if the terminus doesn't handle 25 carriages your in trouble since it might overlap some points where other trains are getting out etc.
 
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fowler9

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I think we need to look at ways to reduce peoples need to travel so much out of necessity, not increase the ability to do so.
 

richieb1971

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I think we need to look at ways to reduce peoples need to travel so much out of necessity, not increase the ability to do so.

I agree. London needs to start hiring its own people and reducing the cost of housing there. Even if it means reducing the wages the people get that work there.

Every single day people are moving all over the place in every direction, its nuts.

Ask the Japanese.
 

NY Yankee

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I know what I am about to propose is a bit complex but here goes.


Using the reservation seat system you put commuters for station stop 1 in certain carriages, commuters for station 2 in certain carriages and so on.

You make the train about 25 carriages long and the train stops so that the carriages are always aligned with the platform that the people want to get off at.

Using the information speaker and dot matrix announcer you can get commuters down the train to the right carriages before it stops.

*edit* I suppose if the terminus doesn't handle 25 carriages your in trouble since it might overlap some points where other trains are getting out etc.

25 carriages is quite long for a commuter train. Furthermore, assigning carriages for a specific stop is quite tedious and confusing to people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is also the issue of dwell time. If you have a double-decker train with (for the sake of argument) twice as many people on board, you will inherently increase the time required for station calls because the number of doors won't have increased much, if at all. This means the overall line capacity is actually reduced because trains take longer to call at stations. You might get away with this on intercity trains but it's a non-starter for commuter trains.

Double decker trains have a higher capacity than single level trains. Although the dwelling time would increase, the higher capacity would offset that. Since there would be higher capacity, less trains would be needed during peak hours, thus reducing congestion.
 
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Haydn1971

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Using the reservation seat system you put commuters for station stop 1 in certain carriages, commuters for station 2 in certain carriages and so on.


This also assumes everyone gets off at the final station - pick up A B C D E of at F - what happens if someone wants to travel A to C ?
 

telstarbox

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This also assumes travel patterns are static over a number of years which isn't the case. Walk-through trains like the Class 378 are a simpler solution.
 

MarkyT

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25 carriages is quite long for a commuter train. Furthermore, assigning carriages for a specific stop is quite tedious and confusing to people.

I think it's practically impossible. Many stations, particularly the major ones, are heavily constrained by junctions nearby that simply can't be moved without extensive housing demolition, often involving expensive properties partly because they're fairly close to a major station. At central terminals particularly, the width of the railway widens considerably through the throat junction area on final approach to the platform ends. The throat areas have often become hemmed in by high value development, and there may be other constraints such as curvature or proximity to a major structure such as a tunnel or bridge. Widening and lengthening a throat significantly, even if possible at all, is likely to be extraordinarily difficult and expensive, not to mention highly disruptive during construction, and is still likely to lead to an end result of fewer, if longer, platforms. Longer trains would take longer to clear junctions, so margins between conflicting movements would also be increased, further decreasing train frequency capacity.

Double decker trains have a higher capacity than single level trains. Although the dwelling time would increase, the higher capacity would offset that. Since there would be higher capacity, less trains would be needed during peak hours, thus reducing congestion.

Equally double decking could theoretically add capacity for demand growth with the same frequency. DD could be confined to express first class saloons on longer hops as many Japanese suburban lines provide with their green class bi-levels on limited stop express routes. Green class passenger density is a little sparser than the peak standard crush at the doors and in the saloons concerned, so it may be by these means boarding times are not overly extended, and on the express schedules operated with the stock, the fewer stops mean their duration dominates the overall journey time equation to a lesser extent anyway, at least in comparison with the parallel all stations local trains which remain resolutely 100% single deck.

Japanese railways manage to squeeze these double deckers into a loading gauge on the 3ft 6in network that is, no doubt due to involvement of British railway expertise in early Victorian era developments, extremely similar to our UK standard gauge profile, including a high intrusive platform with similar clearances and requiring a marked car body side 'tumblehome' from it's widest extent at waist height to the narrower solebar level next to the platform edge. It should be noted however that Japanese railways, even with their complex platform signage and perhaps more orderly and undeniably typically shorter population only employ double decks for lower density niche applications such as green cars and a small number of long distance sleeper and cruise trains. The sleepers are dying out now due to continued expansion of the Shinkansen network however.

the latest Shinkansen expansions have been accomplished as 'Mini-Shinkansen' extensions over former narrow gauge rights of way retaining their more limited clearance, but gauge-converted to the Shinkansen's European standard gauge. Special smaller profile 'classic compatible' Shinkansen trains are procured to run over these extensions at a modest speed (albeit lifted considerably over former narrow gauge service) and to join and share the large profile trunk network running at full speed along with their larger 'captive' cousins.

DD on the full size Shinkansen was tried for a major series of trains in the 1990s but this feature has not been replicated in more recent orders, even though it is easily accommodated within the larger, squarer loading gauge more like the European and American carbody profiles. The DD E4 model with a rather limited top speed will soon be completely withdrawn as ticket sales have plateaued on certain busy commuter corridors, due to Tokyo property prices stabilising according to article linked below. Sheer seat capacity is now being traded for more speed improvements and route extensions.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201406060010
 
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