My idea for Callander line re-opening

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd also reopen the Stirling, Callander to Oban line. Its criminal that it was ever shut .

Welcome to the forum. Have you signed up yet for the project newsletters of the Border Railway project? Issue number 9 was issued a few days ago where amongst other snippets, mention was made that Winston Road in Galashiels will be closed for the next 12 months as part of the construction progress through the town.

It was strange that you should make mention of the Callander to Oban line as on the Closed Stations Journey quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum, the latest journey number 125 in the series commenced at the terminal station of Ballachulish on that line.

 

[onyxcrowle]

Welcome to the forum. Have you signed up yet for the project newsletters of the Border Railway project? Issue number 9 was issued a few days ago where amongst other snippets, mention was made that Winston Road in Galashiels will be closed for the next 12 months as part of the construction progress through the town.

It was strange that you should make mention of the Callander to Oban line as on the Closed Stations Journey quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum, the latest journey number 125 in the series commenced at the terminal station of Ballachulish on that line.

Hi Thank you. I feel strongly it should be reopened. having lived in Callander and used the dreadfull A84 It plus the scenery and Tourist benefits.
Id say this is the next Borders style contender

 

[Tobbes]

Hi Thank you. I feel strongly it should be reopened. having lived in Callander and used the dreadfull A84 It plus the scenery and Tourist benefits.
Id say this is the next Borders style contender

Welcome, onyxcrowle

I'd love to think that you're right, it'd be a completely gorgeous section of railway, but I just can't see it. Ignoring the landslip that only brought forward the inevitable by a month or so in 1965, the reason that the C&O was closed was because there was no population to support its retention on social policy grounds - it was a line from somewhere (Dunblane) to the middle of nowhere (Crianlarich) which is already served by the West Highland line (which then continued to serve the Oban branch). Now, I happen to love the middle of nowhere, but this probably not much of a reason for rebuilding some 40-odd miles of single track - as much as we may all love the idea - it's not as if someone's going to get permission to but down 25,000 homes in the Trossachs!

Does anyone have a timetable for the C&O in the early 60s? If relaid on the original route, how long would Edinburgh - Dunblane - Crianlarich - Oban take?

 

[Grinner]

Welcome, onyxcrowle

I'd love to think that you're right, it'd be a completely gorgeous section of railway, but I just can't see it. Ignoring the landslip that only brought forward the inevitable by a month or so in 1965, the reason that the C&O was closed was because there was no population to support its retention on social policy grounds - it was a line from somewhere (Dunblane) to the middle of nowhere (Crianlarich) which is already served by the West Highland line (which then continued to serve the Oban branch). Now, I happen to love the middle of nowhere, but this probably not much of a reason for rebuilding some 40-odd miles of single track - as much as we may all love the idea - it's not as if someone's going to get permission to but down 25,000 homes in the Trossachs!

Does anyone have a timetable for the C&O in the early 60s? If relaid on the original route, how long would Edinburgh - Dunblane - Crianlarich - Oban take?

FWIW (which is not vey much!), it always seemed to me that it would have made more sense to keep the C&O open, and close the WHR between Helensburgh and Crianlarich. The C&O accessed the West Highlands via a more central route, and would be more useful for Edinburgh/Stirling/Perth passengers to Oban, Fort William, Mallaig etc, without inconveniencing Glasgow passengers either.

The problem with the above would have been the lack of a connection between the C&O and the northern section of the WHR at Crianlarich, whereas there already was such a link between the WHR and the Oban line.

Anyway, I do wonder whether re-opening to Callander might be feasible, given the success of the Alloa re-opening. Callander is a sizeable place, and gets a lot of tourists/daytrippers throughout the year to boost numbers.

Apologies, this is wildly off-topic for a thread about the Borders Railway...

 

[Tobbes]

Apologies, this is wildly off-topic for a thread about the Borders Railway...

Mods, could we have a C&O reopening thread please?

FWIW (which is not vey much!), it always seemed to me that it would have made more sense to keep the C&O open, and close the WHR between Helensburgh and Crianlarich. The C&O accessed the West Highlands via a more central route, and would be more useful for Edinburgh/Stirling/Perth passengers to Oban, Fort William, Mallaig etc, without inconveniencing Glasgow passengers either.

The problem with the above would have been the lack of a connection between the C&O and the northern section of the WHR at Crianlarich, whereas there already was such a link between the WHR and the Oban line.

There could've been an East-North chord built at Crianlarich, though this would've rendered the existing station inaccessible. But yes, it would've kept more journey options open than the WHL alone - which under this plan would presumably have been cut back to Garelochead and the NATO munitions dump a little further along.

l still don't see the business case for Callender alone though- it's only 3,000 people and it is roughly 12 miles from Dunblane. How much of the formation still exists?

Tobbes

 

[Altnabreac]

l still don't see the business case for Callender alone though- it's only 3,000 people and it is roughly 12 miles from Dunblane. How much of the formation still exists?

Tobbes

If any reopening were to be considered it would only be the Callander - Dunblane section of line. North of Callander the population is small and the tourism benefits would be outweighed by the removal of the cycle path which is a major visitor attraction for the area.

In theory this could work OK as there is already a terminating service in Dunblane that could be extended and Callander with 3,000 population and Doune with 2,000 would give you a reasonable starting point for traffic when combined with the tourism trade in Callander.

It would have had to be accompanied by some serious house building expansion in the area but again in theory that could work as there is decent demand in the wider Stirling area and with a new rail service you could drive local housing expansion to focus on Callander / Doune.

However the big problem is with the solum in Dunblane, where it has been completely obliterated by new housing. You would be talking about demolishing at least 50 houses. There is also the small matter of the A9 Dunblane bypass which crosses the line without any allowance for a reinstated railway. As there is a grade separated road junction in that area it would further complicate any work to reinstate a railway.

There are a further 20 houses on the line in Doune although you could perhaps bypass them with a new line to the north, then in Callander around another 50 houses are built on the line so you either have to have a station on the eastern outskirts of town or demolish them too.

In short: Never going to happen.

 

[Grinner]

(full quite removed to save space)
In short: Never going to happen.

Thanks for the summary, Altnabreac, really informative. I suspected as much from a brief glance at the map of the area. As I say shame it was shut, but I can't see it ever re-opening.

 

[onyxcrowle]

Well I'm new to the forum and now I'm slightly more awake than my last post, I will start a thread on this subject.
Can the mod's please transfer those posts from the Borders Rail route to this page?.
Anyway, As I said on my other post, It would be nice to see the likes of Callander be re-opened. it seems a very large wrong when you consider how busy the road is , Not just with tourists but all the Logging stuff that goes through. And while the current route can't be followed all the way, Neither is the Borders railway.
with an increase in pressure on the roads and a squeeze on drivers perhaps we should never say never. After all twenty odd years ago those building the Edinburgh City By-Pass never cast a thought toward the re-opening of the Railway.
One thing is certain it would be well used today and a joy to travel on. And the idea of being able to look from the train windows onto Ben Ledi , On a selfish note I'd back it all the way!.

 

[Tobbes]

If any reopening were to be considered it would only be the Callander - Dunblane section of line. North of Callander the population is small and the tourism benefits would be outweighed by the removal of the cycle path which is a major visitor attraction for the area.

In theory this could work OK as there is already a terminating service in Dunblane that could be extended and Callander with 3,000 population and Doune with 2,000 would give you a reasonable starting point for traffic when combined with the tourism trade in Callander.

Fair enough - how frequent is this terminating service?

It would have had to be accompanied by some serious house building expansion in the area but again in theory that could work as there is decent demand in the wider Stirling area and with a new rail service you could drive local housing expansion to focus on Callander / Doune.

How much demand is there? Clearly this thing won't every repay the capital, but if it could cover the operating expenses, then it begins to make some sense. Dunblane is around an hour from Waverley, and another 15 mins to Callender stopping at Doune could be very attractive.

However the big problem is with the solum in Dunblane, where it has been completely obliterated by new housing. You would be talking about demolishing at least 50 houses. There is also the small matter of the A9 Dunblane bypass which crosses the line without any allowance for a reinstated railway. As there is a grade separated road junction in that area it would further complicate any work to reinstate a railway.

Google earth seems to suggest that it would be Possible to branch north west after the line north out of Dunblane crosses Allan Water, cuts across the park, across Allan Water and then burrows under the A9 before returning to the old alignment.

There are a further 20 houses on the line in Doune although you could perhaps bypass them with a new line to the north

Yes, that certainly seems possible.

then in Callander around another 50 houses are built on the line so you either have to have a station on the eastern outskirts of town or demolish them too.

Or off to the north of the town.

And since we're in fantasy land here, the alternative is to cross the A84 south of Keltie Bridge, bridge the burn and then the River Teith, stay east of the leisure centre and terminate at a new station by Bridge Street, on the site of Callender Primary School.....! This would make extending it back to Oban slightly more problematic.

In short: Never going to happen.

Sadly, correct.

 

[Zoidberg]

deleted - no longer relevant

 

[onyxcrowle]

Mod Note: split from this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1594011

Id also reopen the Stirling callander to oban line. its criminal It was ever shut .

 

[IanXC]

Mods, could we have a C&O reopening thread please?

I have separated the C&O discussion from the Borders Line thread which was veering off topic! If I can also take this opportunity to highlight what Zoidberg said:

Best ask directly - the moderators are unlikely to stumble across a request embedded within a post.

Maybe "alert" your initial post and make the request.

Please do use the report function (

) to bring these kinds of issues to our attention, the sooner its done the easier it is.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well I'm new to the forum and now I'm slightly more awake than my last post, I will start a thread on this subject.

Welcome to the forum.

I'll try to answer some of the questions raised on the other thread.

Firstly I'll repeat Altnabreac's two golden rules of successful rail reopenings:

• A population of 10,000+
• A journey time of 60-75 minutes to a major employment centre (Edinburgh/Glasgow in a Scottish context)

Bathgate, Larkhall, Alloa, Borders all follow this basic formula.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Callander doesn't quite fulfil these criteria. Dunblane is 60 minutes or so from Edinburgh and I reckon Callander is at least 20 mins away with a stop at Doune so it's at the outer limit of what works. On the positive side I believe the Alloa line has generated a fair bit of traffic to Stirling as well.

Population wise 3,000 at Callander and 2,000 at Doune are too small to support a new line. On the positive side though they are Stirling's 4th and 5th biggest settlements (after Stirling, Dunblane and Bridge of Allan. So if new housing is required the rail served settlements are the obvious places to develop.

Stirling's Local Development Plan http://www.stirling.gov.uk/__docume...ved-pldp-oct-2012/chapters-1_9-03_10_2012.pdf identifies a need for 6,000 new houses over the next 10 years.

That implies a population growth of 14,000 or so. A significant chunk diverted to Doune/Callander could get you somewhere close to the viable mark. As it is of course Stirling council are concentrating this housing growth in the "Core Area" of Stirling/Bridge of Allan/Dunblane.

 

[Liam]

Firstly I'll repeat Altnabreac's two golden rules of successful rail reopenings:

• A population of 10,000+
• A journey time of 60-75 minutes to a major employment centre (Edinburgh/Glasgow in a Scottish context)

Out of interest, would a line to Peterhead pass your golden rules? The line via Maud Junction is pretty circuitous, so I was thinking following the Buddon Branch from Ellon with stations at Newmachar (~2,400) Ellon (~10,000) Cruden Bay and Boddam (both ~1,000) and creating a new route into Peterhead (~20,000), hugging the coastline.

Would probably be an extension of the Edinburgh or Glasgow-Aberdeen services, one of them each hour extending to Inverurie, the other to Peterhead. Might be some freight interest in taking fish from the busy harbour too.

It might struggle to compete against the bus which takes 1h10-1h30 and runs every half hour.

 

[Altnabreac]

Fair enough - how frequent is this terminating service?

The Dunblane terminators from Edinburgh run every 30 minutes with a journey time of around an hour. One train per hour extended to Callander would be sufficient and could be timetabled easily enough. The electrification to Dunblane due by 2018 would help with journey times but add to capital costs in reopening.

 

[onyxcrowle]

Out of interest, would a line to Peterhead pass your golden rules? The line via Maud Junction is pretty circuitous, so I was thinking following the Buddon Branch from Ellon with stations at Newmachar (~2,400) Ellon (~10,000) Cruden Bay and Boddam (both ~1,000) and creating a new route into Peterhead (~20,000), hugging the coastline.

Would probably be an extension of the Edinburgh or Glasgow-Aberdeen services, one of them each hour extending to Inverurie, the other to Peterhead. Might be some freight interest in taking fish from the busy harbour too.

It might struggle to compete against the bus which takes 1h10-1h30 and runs every half hour.

Isn't that Peterhead route already cited somewhere by the Scottish gov for re-opening ?.
Just I seem to recall reading about it somewhere recently. I can't recall where the heritage line is in relation to it.

 

[Altnabreac]

Google earth seems to suggest that it would be Possible to branch north west after the line north out of Dunblane crosses Allan Water, cuts across the park, across Allan Water and then burrows underneath the A9 before returning to the old alignment.

I agree that if you were determined to reopen the line this would be the only plausible route to take.

Unfortunately the state of the track bed turns what would be a marginal reopening even with major housing growth to a totally implausible prospect.

 

[Liam]

Isn't that Peterhead route already cited somewhere by the Scottish gov for re-opening ?.
Just I seem to recall reading about it somewhere recently. I can't recall where the heritage line is in relation to it.

I'm not sure. But after Borders there aren't many obvious reopenings left. Leven is one, Peterhead another. Although Peterhead would probably be via Maud Jn. There are no heritage lines in the immediate area, the nearest being Deeside, Caledonian (Brechin) and Keith and Dufftown. The former trackbed is now the Formartine and Buchan Way footpath.

Of course if the line via Maud Jn were to reopen, it would leave the possibility of reopening the line to Fraserburgh at the same time, or at a later date.

 

[Altnabreac]

Out of interest, would a line to Peterhead pass your golden rules? The line via Maud Junction is pretty circuitous, so I was thinking following the Buddon Branch from Ellon with stations at Newmachar (~2,400) Ellon (~10,000) Cruden Bay and Boddam (both ~1,000) and creating a new route into Peterhead (~20,000), hugging the coastline.

Would probably be an extension of the Edinburgh or Glasgow-Aberdeen services, one of them each hour extending to Inverurie, the other to Peterhead. Might be some freight interest in taking fish from the busy harbour too.

It might struggle to compete against the bus which takes 1h10-1h30 and runs every half hour.

It's an interesting one. Traditionally levels of rail usage in the north east have been very low and reopenings have been seen as a central belt phenomenon. However from a low base Stonehaven now generates 500,000 journeys from a population of 10,000 while Inverurie has 400,000 journeys from a population of 12,000.

You'd imagine though that the business case would be much better for a line serving Cults, Peterculter and Banchory which gives you more population, for less capital investment and a shorter journey time.

I'd imagine that Banchory would be the first NE re-opening and if it worked Peterhead might be next on the list.

I haven't seen any mention of these 2 schemes in any official document since the 2006 Scottish Strategic rail study where they popped up in the high resource scenario but didn't have great BCRs.

For what it's worth here are my predicted Scottish rail reopenings in order of likelihood to happen:

1 - Levenmouth. 30,000 people with a 75 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

2 - Grangemouth. 18,000 people with a 60 minute journey time to Glasgow (and a similar
time to Edinburgh with a change at Falkirk Grahamston).

3 - Penicuik. 23,000 people (including Loanhead/Roslin) with a 30 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

4 - Bridge of Weir (either as Paisley Canal extension, or branch from main line) 21,000 people (including Linwood and Houston) with a 40 minute journey time to Glasgow.

5 - Hawick. 18,000 people (including Melrose/Newtown St Boswells) with a 90 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

6 - Banchory. 15,000 people (including Milltimber, Peterculter, Cults) with a 30 minute journey to Aberdeen. The business case is probably actually really good for this one but planners likely to be more nervous when dealing with Aberdeen as there isn't the past evidence of commuting demand that Edinburgh/Glasgow have.

 

[Bevan Price]

Welcome, onyxcrowle


Does anyone have a timetable for the C&O in the early 60s? If relaid on the original route, how long would Edinburgh - Dunblane - Crianlarich - Oban take?

From 1961 timetable, the fastest train I can find was a Summer Saturday service

Glasgow Buchanan St 11:50
Stirling 12:36
Balquhidder 13:25
Dalmally 14:25
Connel Ferry 15:12 /15:15
Oban 15:32

About 3 hr 15 - 3 hr 30 mins was more typical for Stirling to Oban times.

For example (listing principal stations only, SX timings),
Glasgow Buchanan St. 18:00
& Edinburgh Princes St 17:40
Stirling 18:46
Callander19:11/19:13
Balquhidder 19:40
Killin Jn 20:06/20;07
Crianlarich Lower 20:23
Connel Ferry 21:41 /21:43
Oban 22:00

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At least, there are still existing rail routes to the Scottish west coast coastal settlements of Oban, Mallaig, Fort William and Kyle of Lochalsh, which is more than can be said for many of the Scottish east coast routes to terminal marine settlements.

Of course, I am not suggesting that a new lease of life be found for the Wick and Lybster Light Railway.

 

[onyxcrowle]

Welcome to the forum. Have you signed up yet for the project newsletters of the Border Railway project? Issue number 9 was issued a few days ago where amongst other snippets, mention was made that Winston Road in Galashiels will be closed for the next 12 months as part of the construction progress through the town.

It was strange that you should make mention of the Callander to Oban line as on the Closed Stations Journey quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum, the latest journey number 125 in the series commenced at the terminal station of Ballachulish on that line.

Hi Paul now you mention it I will register. And mNy thanks for the welcome

 

[Liam]

It's an interesting one. Traditionally levels of rail usage in the north east have been very low and reopenings have been seen as a central belt phenomenon. However from a low base Stonehaven now generates 500,000 journeys from a population of 10,000 while Inverurie has 400,000 journeys from a population of 12,000.

Great post, all very interesting points. I think Peterhead is an interesting one as it's probably the only potential reopening where there is a (small) potential freight market as well as a passenger market, not counting Grangemouth or the wee bit of the Leven line which are all ready in use.

 

[St Rollox]

I'd imagine if the SNP project goes the wrong way up (can remember the 70s and the SNP going off the rails) and Labour/LibDem Goverment is formed in Edinburgh, then GARL and the extension to the Larkhall line will be back on.

 

[Altnabreac]

I'd imagine if the SNP project goes the wrong way up (can remember the 70s and the SNP going off the rails) and Labour/LibDem Goverment is formed in Edinburgh, then GARL and the extension to the Larkhall line will be back on.

I think the Larkhall extension is unlikely to proceed without housing growth. The populations are fairly low (Strathaven 7,000 Stonehouse 5,000) and there are two crossings of the Avon missing, one a major viaduct that would be expensive to replace.

With GARL I suspect the world has moved on and Labour have learnt the political lesson that airports don't have votes. Expect lots of noise about lack of investment in the west though. Suspect Bridge of Weir the most likely beneficiary of these mutterings. Maybe also some iteration of Glasgow Crossrail?

 

[clc]

With GARL I suspect the world has moved on and Labour have learnt the political lesson that airports don't have votes. Expect lots of noise about lack of investment in the west though. Suspect Bridge of Weir the most likely beneficiary of these mutterings. Maybe also some iteration of Glasgow Crossrail?

The west has done very well recently in terms of infrastructure investment with all the billions spent on M74, M80, Paisley Corridor Improvements, new class 380s, Subway upgrade, Commonwealth Games, Glasgow South mega hospital etc. Labour's attempt to portray the SNP as anti Glasgow over GARL just made them look silly given all the money they were spending there
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd imagine if the SNP project goes the wrong way up (can remember the 70s and the SNP going off the rails) and Labour/LibDem Goverment is formed in Edinburgh, then GARL and the extension to the Larkhall line will be back on.

The SNP is a very different animal to that of the 70s, I dont see any likelyhood of a meltdown if there's a no vote. The Labour team at Holyrood is so woefully inadequate compared to their SNP counterparts the voters don't really have a difficult choice.

 

[CuttingRemark]

It's an interesting one. Traditionally levels of rail usage in the north east have been very low and reopenings have been seen as a central belt phenomenon. However from a low base Stonehaven now generates 500,000 journeys from a population of 10,000 while Inverurie has 400,000 journeys from a population of 12,000.

You'd imagine though that the business case would be much better for a line serving Cults, Peterculter and Banchory which gives you more population, for less capital investment and a shorter journey time.

I'd imagine that Banchory would be the first NE re-opening and if it worked Peterhead might be next on the list.

I haven't seen any mention of these 2 schemes in any official document since the 2006 Scottish Strategic rail study where they popped up in the high resource scenario but didn't have great BCRs.

For what it's worth here are my predicted Scottish rail reopenings in order of likelihood to happen:

1 - Levenmouth. 30,000 people with a 75 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

2 - Grangemouth. 18,000 people with a 60 minute journey time to Glasgow (and a similar
time to Edinburgh with a change at Falkirk Grahamston).

3 - Penicuik. 23,000 people (including Loanhead/Roslin) with a 30 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

4 - Bridge of Weir (either as Paisley Canal extension, or branch from main line) 21,000 people (including Linwood and Houston) with a 40 minute journey time to Glasgow.

5 - Hawick. 18,000 people (including Melrose/Newtown St Boswells) with a 90 minute journey time to Edinburgh.

6 - Banchory. 15,000 people (including Milltimber, Peterculter, Cults) with a 30 minute journey to Aberdeen. The business case is probably actually really good for this one but planners likely to be more nervous when dealing with Aberdeen as there isn't the past evidence of commuting demand that Edinburgh/Glasgow have.

Any thoughts on the feasibility of an "Aberdeen Crossrail" from Ellon to Banchory?