My idea for Branch line cost savings.

[Thumper Bill]

In some parts of the country trains exist on some branch lines that are more like busses and have done for many years. Would it not make sense to tarmac over all of the lightly used branch lines and use busses on them, the cost saving on infrastructure and staffing would be vast and if the busses could be hybrid power it would be Green, I am not intending to be contraversial here, just floating an idea.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm sure there was some bloke who wrote in the Times years ago suggesting the same, needless to say he got torn several new ones over it.

Is there actually any need? Take for example Looe, a relatively quiet branch line and town but it must make thousands in the summer, ditto Newquay. Falmouth and St Ives I would have thought are in the black all year round, as would Barnstaple and Exmouth. Gunnislake is far too long for conversion I would suggest, but I think the traffic into Plymouth means it manages fine as it is. I can't actually think of any other areas similar to Devon / Cornwall by branch line number: certainly those in the Eastcountry are fine as heavy rail at the moment, I would have thought many make quite a lot of money.

Where exactly would you propose? And how much would conversion cost, and how exactly would a hybrid bus system be better than a railway?

 

[Gareth Marston]

In some parts of the country trains exist on some branch lines that are more like busses and have done for many years. Would it not make sense to tarmac over all of the lightly used branch lines and use busses on them, the cost saving on infrastructure and staffing would be vast and if the busses could be hybrid power it would be Green, I am not intending to be contraversial here, just floating an idea.

Simple answer aside anything else is road construction costs. Do you have the first clue how expense roads are to build these days? Its £ millions per mile.

 

[MarkyT]

Few rural passenger services are completely segregated from other rail traffic and many involve a run for some distance over a main line between a major town or interchange station and the actual branch junction. If the branch was converted to a bus road the problem of how to get the bus from the junction to the interchange would have to be solved. That might involve diversion over existing congested roads approaching a town centre interchange which would extend journey times and erode service reliability.

 

[eastdyke]

In some parts of the country trains exist on some branch lines that are more like busses and have done for many years. Would it not make sense to tarmac over all of the lightly used branch lines and use busses on them, the cost saving on infrastructure and staffing would be vast and if the busses could be hybrid power it would be Green, I am not intending to be contraversial here, just floating an idea.

Ask the good people of Cambridgeshire. I believe that they have some recent experience ...

 

[TheGrew]

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tfsh/eclipse/eclipse-route-animation.htm
That is all.....








From what I have been told the people from Gosport don't like it and would have preferred a decent connecting service to Fareham (and beyond potentially)

 

[jnjkerbin]

I'm sure there was some bloke who wrote in the Times years ago suggesting the same, needless to say he got torn several new ones over it

You may mean this letter received in 1981.

SIR - Some readers cannot evidently bear to face the fact that railways are finished throughout the world.

This relic can be kept going for 50 years if we allow them to keep sucking our blood. More sensible, however to turn them into roads for use exclusively by heavy transport lorries and coaches.

The improvement on existing roads would be enormous. The cost of conversion would be much less than new roads and they could be self supporting by a charge on users. In fact, they could be owned and maintained by the transport industry itself....

... But now is the time to stop playing trains.

A. L. Rogers
Walsall, W. Midlands

 

[Bevan Price]

Two people called Marples & Beeching tried something fairly similar 50 years ago, although using normal roads rather than trackbeds covered with tarmac or concrete. Unfortunately, most of the former rail passengers did not use the replacement buses.

I like buses, they serve a useful purpose for short distance journeys. But, in general, they do not attract enough people out of their cars, especially for journeys longer than about 5 miles. Buses are simply too slow for long journeys.

 

[lancastrian]

In some parts of the country trains exist on some branch lines that are more like buses and have done for many years. Would it not make sense to tarmac over all of the lightly used branch lines and use buses on them, the cost saving on infrastructure and staffing would be vast and if the buses could be hybrid power it would be Green, I am not intending to be controversial here, just floating an idea.

Well my first reaction was "Not this old chestnut" as is said in another answer Beeching & Marples tried this in the early 1960's. Now we are having to spend millions just to reinstate what should never have been destroyed in the first place.

I don't have rose coloured glasses and say all in the garden was lovely, some branches should never have been built. BUT many lines that where of national importance where closed for no good reason. Now they are rebuilding and reopening them.

For example:

• Airdrie to Bathgate
• The Borders Line (for some daft reason not going as far as Hawick).
• The Porishead Branch

Other lines are also being discussed. I often holiday near Whitby and use the Esk Valley Branch. It would be totally impossible to tarmac over this route, where on earth would you have the buses pass each other. I used the line into Middlesborough, it was a two coach class 56 unit and it was packed on the first train out of Whitby in the morning. On returning in the evening at tea time it was packed again. There is no way that a bus could ever carry all those people, or as quickly.

What the Esk valley line and others like it need, is some sensible limited investment to enable them to give an improved service to its customers.

The Esk Valley needs another passing loops at Castleton Moor & Slieghts as well as a second platform at Whitby. It seems that the NYMR is working at getting that done. Plus it needs MORE THAN just one set each day. A minimum of two sets would give a much increased service and a much better one.

What is needed in this country in not less rail BUT more, whether heavy rail or light rail (trams).

 

[MarkyT]

What the Esk valley line and others like it need, is some sensible limited investment to enable them to give an improved service to its customers.

Reversal at Battersby could be cut out with a new alignment as shown here:

http://www.townend.me/files/battersby.jpg

 

[DarloRich]

Reversal at Battersby could be cut out with a new alignment as shown here:

http://www.townend.me/files/battersby.jpg

Could the cost associated with building the new line ever really be justified? How much of a pain is it, really, to have to reverse at Battersby Junction?

 

[MarkyT]

Could the cost associated with building the new line ever really be justified? How much of a pain is it, really, to have to reverse at Battersby Junction?

If you didn't replace the station on the new alignment you might save up to 10 minutes in each direction, that's 20 minutes on a round trip. Maybe that's an extra journey or 2 per day with the single unit employed at the moment.

 

[DarloRich]

If you didn't replace the station on the new alignment you might save up to 10 minutes in each direction, that's 20 minutes on a round trip. Maybe that's an extra journey or 2 per day with the single unit employed at the moment.

i simply think it would cost millions to save a few pence. It isn't that much of a ball ache on a lightly used rural branch line (and is actually quite charming!)

I would spend the money where it would have more impact.

 

[Kali]

In some parts of the country trains exist on some branch lines that are more like busses [...]

It would help your suggestion to give a few examples, really.

Why busses and not light rail, for instance? there are advantages to having a metal wheel/ground interface.

 

[The Ham]

Simple answer aside anything else is road construction costs. Do you have the first clue how expense roads are to build these days? Its £ millions per mile.

Even on a quite simple project roads cost £200 per square meter!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Even on a quite simple project roads cost £200 per square meter!

The OP's premise is that rural lines are lightly used. The Cambrian has 1.5 million passenger per annum try and work out the size fleet of coaches/buses you'd need to accommodate that(that's other 4000 a day on average) add that to the road construction costs.

 

[Railsigns]

Even on a quite simple project roads cost £200 per square meter!

Parking meters, presumably. Or maybe you meant 'metres'.

 

[cuccir]

i simply think it would cost millions to save a few pence. It isn't that much of a ball ache on a lightly used rural branch line (and is actually quite charming!)

I would spend the money where it would have more impact.

Isn't that essentially an arguments against any spending on rural infrastructure? If we value having lively rural communities, which help maintain the countryside as a place we can all use for leisure, food production and overall environmental benefit, then we have to accept that there will be disproportionately high (per person) infrastructural costs in doing this.

 

[LexyBoy]

Large capital expenditure versus relatively small savings in operating costs. Also would disfavour out future expansion (e.g. Oxford-Bicester) and through running (e.g. summer services to Newquay, or freight).

We are bad at managing multi-modal journeys, and I would suspect that what would actually happen is that the railbed would become an open road following local pressure on the perceived waste of resource of having a dedicated road for one bus an hour. The bus would turn into a regular bus service and passengers would not secure that they would make their connections.

That said, I would like to see buses used as "pseudo-rail" services, with limited-stop services operating to a rail-linked timetable, proper through ticketing (including from destinations served only by the bus), and branding linking them to the railway rather than local buses. These could serve as links between railway stations as well as "branch line" services, e.g Oxford-Newbury (or even extend to Southampton and have a via Newbury fare). However, I'm sure there's some reason why TOCs are not allowed to do this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't that essentially an arguments against any spending on rural infrastructure? If we value having lively rural communities, which help maintain the countryside as a place we can all use for leisure, food production and overall environmental benefit, then we have to accept that there will be disproportionately high (per person) infrastructural costs in doing this.

Yes, but the original idea was proposed as a money-saving exercise; there's no point in spending on infrastructure which delivers neither an improved service nor operational savings.

 

[Yew]

Dont forget freight, although a line might not make sense from passangers alone, if you think of the amount of HGV's required for a single freight train, suddenly some branches make much more sense

 

[DarloRich]

Isn't that essentially an arguments against any spending on rural infrastructure? If we value having lively rural communities, which help maintain the countryside as a place we can all use for leisure, food production and overall environmental benefit, then we have to accept that there will be disproportionately high (per person) infrastructural costs in doing this.

no it is an argument against spending money on the principle of if it aint broke dont fix it! Where is the benefit in an expensive scheme for no real reason?

take that money and spend it on building a passing loop somewhere to increase capacity

 

[The Ham]

Parking meters, presumably. Or maybe you meant 'metres'.

I did mean metres.

Also, to build a road that is wide enough for two buses to pass (which is not a guided busway) is 6.1m, so for every mile (1,609m) it basicly costs £2million per mile.

Then you have to pay for the upkeep of the road through your council tax bill, including gritting it during the winter.

If you take the Avocet Line to Exmouth which has a length of 11.25miles that would be a minimum cost of £22.5 million which if you were to invest in improvements to the line (passing bays, new stations, new stock or possibly even electrification) that would bring a big improvement to the services on the line.

 

[Kali]

I think perhaps the OP was thinking more of long-term maintenance costs rather than initial upfront costs. What's a mile of branchline cost to lay these days? and then what's the annual upkeep vs a lightly-used road?

Lines around Exeter would be a really bad example though - not only are the roads heaving already - I can't imagine the journey time from Exmouth Jct to St Davids in the rushour if you fed even more busses in! - but the branches aren't totally self-contained. That was why I wanted examples from the OP.

 

[gingerheid]

I really think that, with the right will, Parry People Movers might be the ideal low cost way of sustaining branch lines. They'd also give people who hate P*cers another guaranteed generation of having something to moan about.

 

[yorksrob]

I really think that, with the right will, Parry People Movers might be the ideal low cost way of sustaining branch lines. They'd also give people who hate P*cers another guaranteed generation of having something to moan about.

Good luck fitting all the passengers from the branchlines around here on a PPM !

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I think perhaps the OP was thinking more of long-term maintenance costs rather than initial upfront costs. What's a mile of branchline cost to lay these days? and then what's the annual upkeep vs a lightly-used road?

Lines around Exeter would be a really bad example though - not only are the roads heaving already - I can't imagine the journey time from Exmouth Jct to St Davids in the rushour if you fed even more busses in! - but the branches aren't totally self-contained. That was why I wanted examples from the OP.

I was told 10 yrs ago railway track was roughly £1000 per foot.

Parry - imo a very limited application.
A relatively level line, short distance link, Eg Town centre to a junction station.

Branch lines could save money by replacing the last train with a bus for instance. If it could be seen as an 'improvement' by giving an extra later or earlier service.
Newquay - Par - It could enable 2 signal Boxes to close a couple hours earlier.

 

[LE Greys]

That said, I would like to see buses used as "pseudo-rail" services, with limited-stop services operating to a rail-linked timetable, proper through ticketing (including from destinations served only by the bus), and branding linking them to the railway rather than local buses. These could serve as links between railway stations as well as "branch line" services, e.g Oxford-Newbury (or even extend to Southampton and have a via Newbury fare). However, I'm sure there's some reason why TOCs are not allowed to do this.

I'd certainly like to see that! One of the problems with PlusBus is that you can only buy it from a station, so if you're starting off with a bus journey, it defeats the object. That needs to be resolved. Another version of this would be to add rail-connected preserved lines with an all-day service.

Otherwise, rail/bus links might be a useful way of retaining a service until the line (hopefully) gets rebuilt one day.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Gunnislake is far too long for conversion I would suggest, but I think the traffic into Plymouth means it manages fine as it is.

I also believe that poor geography and roads between the towns would prevent this, the rail is one of the main sources of travel in that area

 

[The Ham]

I'd certainly like to see that! One of the problems with PlusBus is that you can only buy it from a station, so if you're starting off with a bus journey, it defeats the object. That needs to be resolved. Another version of this would be to add rail-connected preserved lines with an all-day service.

Otherwise, rail/bus links might be a useful way of retaining a service until the line (hopefully) gets rebuilt one day.

Your point about PlusBus is true, however you can add it onto season tickets (which covers commuters) and you can add it at ticket sales websites (which if they get it delivered covers some leisure travellers).

It shouldn't be hard to arrange, the bus driver sells a passenger a go anywhere day pass, which the passenger then shows at the station to receive the relevant discount of a train ticket and PlusBus.

There then comes the problem of stations with no ticket office or it's closed, but that could be overcome maybe with the passenger sending off their tickets freepost to get a refund or being allowed 28 days to get a refund at a manned station.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I also believe that poor geography and roads between the towns would prevent this, the rail is one of the main sources of travel in that area

The geography is why the Branch as far as Gunnislake was retained for social reasons.
Also the Bere Peninsular having a very poor road network, especially to Plymouth,
eg the ancient Denham Bridge etc
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=de...z2kjS4j5Rr-nxo7RgHFTw&cbp=12,107.53,,0,0&z=20
A Parry PM is not suitable for the Gunnislake line!!
Ticketing - have a discounted day ticket for the branch on sale at local Paypoint shops.