My idea for a new TPE

[Train jaune]

Just chugged yesterday afternoon for 90 minutes from Newcastle to Carlise on an "express 142" service that didn't stop at every station. Can we have 185s and first class in future please

 

[northwichcat]

Does this now mean the Newcastle package holiday travellers will now be using Liverpool South Parkway to start and end their vacations ?

They'll have to change twice to do that, once at York/Leeds/Huddersfield and then to the connecting bus from South Parkway.

The new TPE service between Newcastle and Liverpool will be an Intercity style service which will run to Manchester Victoria and then non-stop to Lime Street via Chat Moss.
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Just chugged yesterday afternoon for 90 minutes from Newcastle to Carlise on an "express 142" service that didn't stop at every station. Can we have 185s and first class in future please

What was the loading like?

If everyone got a seat on the 142 than a 2 car 170 would be a better use of resource than a 3 car 185 if the 60 or so extra seats that a 185 would provide aren't needed.

 

[DarloRich]

Are you aware of Nexus' response to the consultation on TPE changes where they backed Newcastle trains going to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport?
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-tpe-response-nexus.pdf

Anyway ORR have now approved the changes TPE requested so Newcastle will lose it's direct Airport service in favour of a Liverpool service from next May.

I will come back to this thread in detail later today - I am not to worried about the Newcastle - Manchester Airport link simply becusae i forgot you get to Liverpool via Victoria :roll:

I was most concerned about conflicting movements across the approaches to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Train jaune]

They'll have to change twice to do that, once at York/Leeds/Huddersfield and then to the connecting bus from South Parkway.

The new TPE service between Newcastle and Liverpool will be an Intercity style service which will run to Manchester Victoria and then non-stop to Lime Street via Chat Moss.
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What was the loading like?

If everyone got a seat on the 142 than a 2 car 170 would be a better use of resource than a 3 car 185 if the 60 or so extra seats that a 185 would provide aren't needed.

Was quite heavily loaded in fact (the 15.24 departure from Newcastle) and I was suprised that most people stayed on all the way to Carlisle. I was hoping for some extra room after Hexham

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Does this now mean the Newcastle package holiday travellers will now be using Liverpool South Parkway to start and end their vacations ?

No, it just means they'll cause yet more havoc on Platforms 1 and 8 at Huddersfield! :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm sure somewhere in the Northern Hub planning they've mentioned that passengers travelling to/from the Airport will be able to board a connecting service from the same platform at either Huddersfield or Leeds.

Well then, who I am I to argue with the far more railway steeped cognoscenti who have scripted this document and see the advantages of lugging holiday luggage on and off train services en route to an airport instead of making a direct journey. Does their proposal mean that someone making the existing journey will be issued with seat

reservation tickets for BOTH the services they propose to be used and a guarantee that there will be the same available luggage space on the second train as there was on the first train.

The mind boggles at other novel proposals they may have come up in that document which may currently propose a break of journey on a long distance rail journey which is made direct at present.

 

[northwichcat]

The mind boggles at other novel proposals they may have come up in that document which may currently propose a break of journey on a long distance rail journey which is made direct at present.

In that case should the Mid-Cheshire line users not be protesting about the fact that our first off-peak train used to be a through train to Blackpool (and was quite popular for Mid-Cheshire users going to Lancashire), but now it terminates at Manchester Piccadilly meaning passengers for Blackpool with luggage have to go from platform 11 to platform 14 at Manchester Piccadilly?

There must be numerous examples of service patterns changing every year. I think you've got over worked up about this one example of an hourly Newcastle to Manchester Airport moving towards becoming a half-hourly Newcastle to Liverpool service with improved journey times because your wife has benefited from the direct service to/from the Airport and can't easily get from Prestbury to Victoria instead of the Airport. As I've already posted the local transport group in the North East, Nexus, are backing the change so they must believe the North East will be better off overall after the change. The regular Newcastle-Airport service was only introduced around 2004 so did the North East only start going abroad on holiday in 2004? If not they can do whatever they did before then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The regular Newcastle-Airport service was only introduced around 2004 so did the North East only start going abroad on holiday in 2004? If not they can do whatever they did before then.

Those Newcastle holiday travellers have had virtually ten years (not an insignificant time, I am sure that you will agree) to become used to the direct service and so have the holiday companies up in Newcastle who arrange package holidays that include the current direct service for their clients. You surely cannot be saying that having had this facility for ten years, Newcastle rail travellers to Manchester Airport will happily accept the need to make a retrograde pre-2004 travel journey, with its inbuilt change of train en route.

I note that you have chosen not to address the point that I made about seat reservation tickets for BOTH the split journeys and the reassurance that there will be the same guaranteed luggage space on the connecting train that these travellers had on the first train.

Have Manchester Airport made any statement on the proposed loss of this direct rail service to their airport ?

 

[northwichcat]

I note that you have chosen not to address the point that I made about seat reservation tickets for BOTH the split journeys and the reassurance that there will be the same guaranteed luggage space on the connecting train that these travellers had on the first train.

You finished adding that bit in to your post at 16:34, while I submitted my post at 16:31. I don't have a time machine available to use.

Manchester Airport did not submit a response to the ORR consultation on the TPE changes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Airport did not submit a response to the ORR consultation on the TPE changes.

I thank you for this information, as I was unsure of that position.

I feel it would be more mature and gentleman-like if the ongoing matter of contention was now allowed to "die a posting death" with the acceptance that both of us hold diametrically opposing points of view on that particular matter.

 

[northern156]

What was the loading like?

If everyone got a seat on the 142 than a 2 car 170 would be a better use of resource than a 3 car 185 if the 60 or so extra seats that a 185 would provide aren't needed.

Normally the 2-car 156s/142s that run on the Tyne Valley aren't standing (apart from certain services, such as Saturday late-morning services from stations toward Carlisle to the Metrocentre and the 1720 Newc - Whitehaven) but saying that they are hardly ever 'dead'.

 

[34D]

As a rule, I don't "do" package holidays myself, but I wonder whether there could be a convenient time that one or two trains a day could do newcastle-Manchester Airport?

Or are the flights so spread?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the new franchise(s) that is/are eventually awarded to replace the current Northern Rail and the First TPE franchises, will any forward-planned major route and timetabling by the existing franchisees be needed to be honoured by the new operators or will their franchise bids be allowed to make alterations to these ?

 

[northwichcat]

When the new franchise(s) that is/are eventually awarded to replace the current Northern Rail and the First TPE franchises, will any forward-planned major route and timetabling by the existing franchisees be needed to be honoured by the new operators or will their franchise bids be allowed to make alterations to these ?

The franchise bids will have to meet a specification which may say, for instance, a half-hourly Newcastle to Liverpool via Victoria service and a half-hourly York-Airport service. If they want to start some York-Airport services beyond York then, subject to available paths and rolling stock I think they would be allowed to include that in their bid provided doing so doesn't prevent them from meeting a franchise requirement.
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As a rule, I don't "do" package holidays myself, but I wonder whether there could be a convenient time that one or two trains a day could do newcastle-Manchester Airport?

Or are the flights so spread?

Manchester Airport has departures between 6am and 11pm (so check-in opens around 4am for the first departures of the day) and arrivals are pretty much 24 hours a day.

 

[Carlisle]

Just chugged yesterday afternoon for 90 minutes from Newcastle to Carlise on an "express 142" service that didn't stop at every station. Can we have 185s and first class in future please

Must be many decades since first class existed on that route even the old mechanical dmu s that preceded sprinters and pacers never had first class or catering

 

[142094]

Normally the 2-car 156s/142s that run on the Tyne Valley aren't standing (apart from certain services, such as Saturday late-morning services from stations toward Carlisle to the Metrocentre and the 1720 Newc - Whitehaven) but saying that they are hardly ever 'dead'.

Think the Newcastle - Whitehaven service is now a single 156 and has been so for a while.

 

[Anvil1984]

In fairness he said 2 car 156/142s

The 156s are by far the best unit for this route due to its bike carrying capacity, quite often get large groups of cyclists forgetting the 2 bikes per train rule in order to do the coast to coast route. Seat Capacity about right too. No need for first class

 

[142094]

In fairness he said 2 car 156/142s

Mis-read what he put (although in my defence, I've never seen a 1-car 142/156 unless it's been split at a depot for an exam).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 156s are by far the best unit for this route due to its bike carrying capacity, quite often get large groups of cyclists forgetting the 2 bikes per train rule in order to do the coast to coast route.

Are there not clearly displayed signs at these stations on this specific route with regard to transportation of bicycles ? If not, there should be.

 

[Waverley125]

the key is, for the level of intercity service in demand on the TP line (realistically projected at 6tph Leeds-Manchester even with significant extension of units to 5 cars), the additional need to provide local services both into Manchester and into Leeds means a huge upgrade of the line is necessary.

At the very least, re-quadrupling between Dewsbury and Diggle would free up a good bit of additional capacity, but would still leave significant bottlenecks between Diggle & Stalybridge, and between Dewsbury & Leeds. The Dewsbury - Leeds line could be alleviated by re-opening the old Wortley Junction - Batley and doing some expansion work through Batley. Stalybridge - Diggle seems a much tougher nut to crack though.

That said, I'd hope for something similar to this:

1tph HULL- LIVERPOOL LIME ST
(Brough, Selby, Leeds, Huddersfield, Victoria, St Helens Junction)

1tph HULL - MANCHESTER AIRPORT
(Hessle, Brough, Howden, Selby, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Victoria, Piccadilly)

1tph NEWCASTLE - LIVERPOOL LIME ST
(Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Victoria, St Helens Junction)

1tph NEWCASTLE - MANCHESTER AIRPORT
(Chester le Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Victoria, Piccadilly)

1tph SCARBOROUGH - HOLYHEAD
(Seamer, Malton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Huddesfield, Victoria, Newton le Willows, Warrington BQ, Runcorn East, Chester, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction, Bangor)

1tph MIDDLESBROUGH - SHREWSBURY
(Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Victoria, Piccadilly, Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Whitchurch)

1tph SCARBOROUGH - BLACKPOOL NORTH

(Seamer, Malton, York, Leeds, Bradford Interchange, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley MR, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston, Poulton le Fylde)

1tph MIDDLESBROUGH - MORECAMBE

(Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, York, Leeds, Bradford Interchange, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Burnley MR, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston, Lancaster)

 

[Anvil1984]

Not sure how that last plan would work, first issue with it would be squeezing a minimum 11 trains an hour (8 expresses mentionned PLUS a stopper to Leeds and York and a Crosscountry) in each direction between Leeds and Micklefield alongside any freights that should go through and ECS movements to Neville Hill

 

[Class185]

From earlier posts, am I right in understanding Liverpool - Newcastle will be half hourly? I know 2014 this service is being redirected. It thought it was hourly.

Does that mean the current Scarborough service will be re-routed, assuming Liverpool isn't getting 3 tph

Glad to see Liverpool getting extra capacity, although worrying proposed service will only run Monday - Friday.

Manchester airport is an important destination, but is over served from Piccadilly.

 

[Anvil1984]

Are there not clearly displayed signs at these stations on this specific route with regard to transportation of bicycles ? If not, there should be.

Yes there are now HOWEVER people don't read the signs at the station until they get there and bought their tickets.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes there are now HOWEVER people don't read the signs at the station until they get there and bought their tickets.

That being the case, those notices should be very clearly displayed in a position that can be read prior to the purchase of the rail tickets at the railway station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From earlier posts, am I right in understanding Liverpool - Newcastle will be half hourly? I know 2014 this service is being redirected. It thought it was hourly.

Manchester Airport is an important destination, but is over served from Piccadilly.

If it is of any help, the following is part of an e-mail from First TPE that I have just seen in my inbox:-

"Having spoken to our train planning department, I can confirm that at present we are considering changing some services from Newcastle to go to Liverpool Lime Street instead of to Manchester Airport.

However, these plans are not at all yet finalised and do not represent a full withdrawal of the direct services to Manchester Airport. Any changes that do come as a result of this will not be introduced until the timetable change in May 2014."

Yours sincerely

Dan O'Brien
Customer Relations Advisor.

 

[Waverley125]

Not sure how that last plan would work, first issue with it would be squeezing a minimum 11 trains an hour (8 expresses mentionned PLUS a stopper to Leeds and York and a Crosscountry) in each direction between Leeds and Micklefield alongside any freights that should go through and ECS movements to Neville Hill

Yeah, the East Leeds bottleneck is a serious one which is going to demand attention sometime in the not too distant future. That said, there's space to widen to four lines all the way between Marsh Lane and Garforth, and widening the Leeds City - Marsh Lane viaduct would only require the demolition of a single building, so it's eminently doable.

While not a total boon, it would at least (especially if new stations at East End Park and Killingbeck were built) allow fast trains a greater window to overtake the stoppers between Leeds and Cross Gates.

 

[northwichcat]

From earlier posts, am I right in understanding Liverpool - Newcastle will be half hourly? I know 2014 this service is being redirected. It thought it was hourly.

Does that mean the current Scarborough service will be re-routed, assuming Liverpool isn't getting 3 tph

Glad to see Liverpool getting extra capacity, although worrying proposed service will only run Monday - Friday.

Manchester airport is an important destination, but is over served from Piccadilly.

The eventual plan is for 6tph on North TPE as below but that's after electrification and the Ordsall Chord:

* Newcastle to Liverpool via Victoria and Chat Moss - express, electric, every 30 minutes
* York to Manchester Airport via Victoria - express, electric, every 30 minutes
* Selby to Piccadilly - semi-fast, electric, hourly
* Hull to Piccadilly - semi-fast, diesel, hourly

Scarborough to York is set to be tagged on to York to Blackpool. Not sure about Middlesbrough. The Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington line is set to get a half-hourly Sheffield service.

Short-term the stock freed up by the introduction of the 350s is set to result in the standard pattern Newcastle-Airport service being replaced by two standard pattern services:
1. Newcastle to Liverpool via Victoria and Chat Moss (hourly)
2. York to Manchester Airport via Guide Bridge (hourly)

The other 3 services on North TPE are set to remain as they are until the Ordsall Chord opens.

I realise Paul Sidorczuk has posted something saying the above isn't confirmed. However, they'd treated Paul Sidorczuk as a customer not as a transport body so don't want to promise their customers something until it's almost certain i.e. they have the 350s in service and have extra crews lined up ready to start. If you contacted them as a Merseytravel or TfGM employee their response would likely be worded differently.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I realise Paul Sidorczuk has posted something saying the above isn't confirmed. However, they'd treated Paul Sidorczuk as a customer not as a transport body so don't want to promise their customers something until it's almost certain i.e. they have the 350s in service and have extra crews lined up ready to start. If you contacted them as a Merseytravel or TfGM employee their response would likely be worded differently.

You appear to be growing as cynical as I am.