My idea for a new Fishguard boat train

[Steddenm]

In the summer why can't GWR run a boat train service from London Paddington to Fishguard Harbour to connect with the night sailing (2345) to Rosslare Europort (Stena a0330-0400 depending on sea conditions), and return at 2303 instead of the ATW service for passengers coming off the afternoon sailing from Rosslare EP.

I would have the service call at...

Reading (pick up only towards FGH, set down towards PAD)
Swindon (connect with services from Didcot)
Bristol Parkway (connect with Bristol TM, the Westcountry, Gloucester, Cheltenham, the Midlands)
Newport (connections from Hereford, Shrewsbury, the north west and north Wales)
Cardiff Central
Bridgend
Port Talbot Parkway
Neath
Swansea (reverse)
Llanelli
Carmarthen (connections to Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock)
Clarbeston Road (up only)
Fishguard and Goodwick
Fishguard Harbour

Would certainly make travelling to the port easier!

All it would be is the extension of a HST and wouldn't need catering after Swansea.

Yes, I know they have done it in the past and I used it a few times in the 90s and was actually quite heavily loaded.

Then maybe Iarnród Éireann can pull their finger out and have trains that actually connect at their own port in Rosslare!

 

[berneyarms]

You do realise that the Stena Line ferry times changed in May of last year and that since then Iarnród Éireann trains have been connecting with three out of four sailings at Rosslare - only the morning sailing from Rosslare has no rail connection now.

But being honest foot passenger numbers now are nothing like the 1990s or before. Ryanair changed that. They certainly wouldn’t warrant an HST anymore sadly.

 

[43096]

You do realise that the Stena Line ferry times changed in May of last year and that since then Iarnród Éireann trains have been connecting with three out of four sailings at Rosslare - only the morning sailing from Rosslare has no rail connection now.

But being honest foot passenger numbers now are nothing like the 1990s or before. Ryanair changed that. They certainly wouldn’t warrant an HST anymore sadly.

Exactly. And which is why FGW stopped running to Fishguard in the first place.

 

[158820]

I made this journey in May afternoon sailing and there were only around 10 sail rail customers on the train from Swansea to Fishguard.
On the train from Rosslare to Dublin l didnt see anyone else making the connection other than myself. It was a lovely journey but sadly it is very lightly used.

 

[Mag_seven]

All it would be is the extension of a HST and wouldn't need catering after Swansea.

And what happens when GWR don't have any HST's - IEP's will not be cleared west of Carmarthen. As others have said there is sadly not enough custom to justify it.

 

[edwin_m]

If there was a good enough reason they would be doing this already. 2345 would be quite easy to arrange with an HST or IEP that would otherwise be going onto depot in Swansea, and being a former main line Fishguard would probably not have major problems being cleared for IEPs.

As mentioned it's all about Ryanair. Anyone east of about Swansea is likely to be better off going east and getting a flight, especially as most people going to Ireland will be heading for somewhere further away than Rosslare. The majority of the people on the ferries (excluding truckers) will be driving because they need a car at their destination. It's not quite so bad for Holyhead, at least the ferry there lands in the Dublin conurbation.

 

[irish_rail]

It's a crying shame that in these times of environmental concerns more isn't being done to encourage use of ferry services over flying to Ireland from the UK. Direct services from London to the port with a consistent IE connection from Rosslare would surely improve numbers of ferry foot passengers. A 5 car IET would more than suffice provided of course they were cleared for the route.

 

[DarloRich]

It's a crying shame that in these times of environmental concerns more isn't being done to encourage use of ferry services over flying to Ireland from the UK. Direct services from London to the port with a consistent IE connection from Rosslare would surely improve numbers of ferry foot passengers. A 5 car IET would more than suffice provided of course they were cleared for the route.

Because, of course, people will give up a 45 minute journey from a local airport in favour of a long slow slog down to the tip of Wales and get on a ferry for a much slower crossing to Ireland followed by a long slow journey to their final destination.

 

[berneyarms]

It's a crying shame that in these times of environmental concerns more isn't being done to encourage use of ferry services over flying to Ireland from the UK. Direct services from London to the port with a consistent IE connection from Rosslare would surely improve numbers of ferry foot passengers. A 5 car IET would more than suffice provided of course they were cleared for the route.

Unless the cost of travelling by air skyrockets, do you honestly think people would switch in any significant numbers to the far slower rail and ferry option?

There is only a connection along the Irish southeast coast from Rosslare - not exactly a massive market. Most people from Dublin would use the Holyhead option if travelling to the UK by sail rail.

Like it or not, low cost airlines rule the roost on the Irish Sea.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It might help if, now that there are connections on both sides of the Irish sea for 3/4 sailings, through rail-sail ticketing was reinstated. A few members of my family went to watch some rugby in Dublin sometime in the last 6-12 months; while they were planning one of the trips I looked to see what the RailSail fare was from either Fishguard or Whitland to Dublin and the National Rail website routed them via Holyhead! Then I remembered that I had read about RailSail fares via Rosslare being withdrawn due to the lack of rail connections on the Irish side (now fixed by Stena changing the time of the ferry). The rugby-fans went by car in the end.

As for the boat trains on the Welsh side of the Irish sea, what I would like to see is a return to all four trips (two each way) running to/from Cardiff rather than Swansea (using either a 175, a 158 or (at busy times) a pair of 158s). Furthermore, I feel that all four trips should serve only the following stations:

• Fishguard Harbour
• Fishguard & Goodwick
• Whitland
• Carmarthen
• Llanelli
• Port Talbot Parkway
• Cardiff Central

These would form part of an hourly service between Carmarthen and Cardiff with the same calling pattern, with a number of services that don't run through to Fishguard extended to Milford Haven to provide a roughly hourly service to the latter when combined with Swansea - Milford Haven trains every two hours. The Milford Haven trains on this service would call at Whitland, Haverfordwest, Johnston and Milford Haven only. Clarbeston Road and Clunderwen would be soley served by Swansea services (both to Milford Haven and Fishguard).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Fishguard has been in terminal decline (rail wise) since the mid 1960's , the market has changed irreversibly. The poor old GWR had very high hopes for it as Transatlantic port. Money lost big time.

There are presently some issues with investment in the port , so not easy.

Another example of "my idea for" ....which has no bearing on cost / market / logistics etc. Ryanair are offering stupidly cheap flights in any case.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Because, of course, people will give up a 45 minute journey from a local airport

Plenty of places don't have a "local airport". Or if they do, it either has flights to out-of-the-way Ryanair-style destinations which require a bus trip at the far end; or the flights are at silly o'clock; or the long check-in times make it much slower than at first thought.

There's plenty of reasons why Fishguard-Rosslare won't work, but "local airports" are not invincible, as the number of foot and cycle passengers on Brittany Ferries sailings continues to demonstrate.

 

[cactustwirly]

In the summer why can't GWR run a boat train service from London Paddington to Fishguard Harbour to connect with the night sailing (2345) to Rosslare Europort (Stena a0330-0400 depending on sea conditions), and return at 2303 instead of the ATW service for passengers coming off the afternoon sailing from Rosslare EP.

I would have the service call at...

Reading (pick up only towards FGH, set down towards PAD)
Swindon (connect with services from Didcot)
Bristol Parkway (connect with Bristol TM, the Westcountry, Gloucester, Cheltenham, the Midlands)
Newport (connections from Hereford, Shrewsbury, the north west and north Wales)
Cardiff Central
Bridgend
Port Talbot Parkway
Neath
Swansea (reverse)
Llanelli
Carmarthen (connections to Milford Haven, Pembroke Dock)
Clarbeston Road (up only)
Fishguard and Goodwick
Fishguard Harbour

Would certainly make travelling to the port easier!

All it would be is the extension of a HST and wouldn't need catering after Swansea.

Yes, I know they have done it in the past and I used it a few times in the 90s and was actually quite heavily loaded.

Then maybe Iarnród Éireann can pull their finger out and have trains that actually connect at their own port in Rosslare!

No because very few people would use it!
Like 99% of ferry traffic these days is by car or truck (the main money maker for ferry companies)
The foot passengers are relatively few in numbers.
Some ferry routes now don't carry any foot passengers

 

[Llanigraham]

Plenty of places don't have a "local airport". Or if they do, it either has flights to out-of-the-way Ryanair-style destinations which require a bus trip at the far end; or the flights are at silly o'clock; or the long check-in times make it much slower than at first thought.

There's plenty of reasons why Fishguard-Rosslare won't work, but "local airports" are not invincible, as the number of foot and cycle passengers on Brittany Ferries sailings continues to demonstrate.

I don't have a local airport, but I can park my car at Rhoose, Birmingham or Bristol, fly to Cork and hire a car there a lot cheaper than taking the ferry.
Get the prices comparable and I might, repeat might, consider the ferry!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Funnily enough overhear on a southbound WCML train , a passenger caping his 1745 Manchester to Norwich flight. Businessman who did not fancy a 4/ 5 hour class 158 train ride. His schedule changed to go to London.

Never knew there was such a flight ...

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of places don't have a "local airport". Or if they do, it either has flights to out-of-the-way Ryanair-style destinations which require a bus trip at the far end; or the flights are at silly o'clock; or the long check-in times make it much slower than at first thought.

There's plenty of reasons why Fishguard-Rosslare won't work, but "local airports" are not invincible, as the number of foot and cycle passengers on Brittany Ferries sailings continues to demonstrate.

Not sure how Cardiff Airport is doing these days but the major population centres of SE Wales are within easy reach of Bristol and people closer to London have plenty of options for Dublin flights (even if it takes longer to get to the local airport the train journey is longer too). The flights may be at silly o'clock but that cuts both ways - the OP mentioned a ferry connection close to midnight. Hence my point about the train option being non-viable from east of about Swansea.

 

[berneyarms]

Plenty of places don't have a "local airport". Or if they do, it either has flights to out-of-the-way Ryanair-style destinations which require a bus trip at the far end; or the flights are at silly o'clock; or the long check-in times make it much slower than at first thought.

There's plenty of reasons why Fishguard-Rosslare won't work, but "local airports" are not invincible, as the number of foot and cycle passengers on Brittany Ferries sailings continues to demonstrate.

The range of airports that you can fly to from Dublin and other Irish airports has increased steadily in recent years - in the context of crossing the Irish Sea (which is what is being discussed here and not other locations) the air market has decimated foot passenger traffic and people are not flying to “out of the way” airports. There’s a long list of regional airports served.

To put this into perspective here is a list of UK airport destinations with direct flights from Irish airports, with most from Dublin having multiple flights each day and are not necessarily at silly o’clock:

Dublin:

Inverness
Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Newcastle
Carlisle (from Sept)
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
Liverpool
Doncaster/Sheffield
East Midlands
Birmingham
Stansted
Luton
Southend
Heathrow
London City
Gatwick
Bristol
Cardiff
Southampton
Exeter
Newquay

Cork:

Edinburgh
Glasgow
Newcastle
Manchester
Liverpool
Birmingham
Stansted
Heathrow
Gatwick
Bristol
Cardiff
Southampton
Newquay

Shannon:

Edinburgh
Manchester
Liverpool
Birmingham
Stansted
Heathrow
Gatwick
Bristol

Knock:

Edinburgh
Manchester
Liverpool
East Midlands
Birmingham
Stansted
Luton
Gatwick
Bristol

Donegal:
Glasgow

There are very few parts of the UK not accessible by air from Ireland and that is what has decimated the foot passenger traffic on the ferries.

 

[cactustwirly]

The range of airports that you can fly to from Dublin and other Irish airports has increased steadily in recent years - in the context of crossing the Irish Sea (which is what is being discussed here and not other locations) the air market has decimated foot passenger traffic and people are not flying to “out of the way” airports. There’s a long list of regional airports served.

To put this into perspective here is a list of UK airport destinations with direct flights from Irish airports, with most from Dublin having multiple flights each day and are not necessarily at silly o’clock:

Dublin:

Inverness
Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Newcastle
Carlisle (from Sept)
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
Liverpool
Doncaster/Sheffield
East Midlands
Birmingham
Stansted
Luton
Southend
Heathrow
London City
Gatwick
Bristol
Cardiff
Southampton
Exeter
Newquay

Cork:

Edinburgh
Glasgow
Newcastle
Manchester
Liverpool
Birmingham
Stansted
Heathrow
Gatwick
Bristol
Cardiff
Southampton
Newquay

Shannon:

Edinburgh
Manchester
Liverpool
Birmingham
Stansted
Heathrow
Gatwick
Bristol

Knock:

Edinburgh
Manchester
Liverpool
East Midlands
Birmingham
Stansted
Luton
Gatwick
Bristol

Donegal:
Glasgow

There are very few parts of the UK not accessible by air from Ireland and that is what has decimated the ferries.

I wouldn't say decimated, they are still around and still make money, the Holyhead - Dublin crossing is especially busy.
It's just a different market they serve, ie RoRo freight and people with cars

 

[Smethwickian]

I've rail-sailed to or from Ireland half a dozen times now including most recently from Rosslare to Fishguard, daytime, in early October last year and can recall I had less than 20 fellow foot passengers, a handful of whom then left Fishguard by taxis and lifts, not hanging around for the train.
The fact that some ports barely have any facilities for foot passengers indicates how few they expect, such as Birkenhead 12 Quays (or "Liverpool" according to Stena) where there's no foot gangway or other access so a shuttle bus is used to take Belfast-bound pedestrians up the vehicle ramp.

 

[ac6000cw]

I made this journey in May afternoon sailing and there were only around 10 sail rail customers on the train from Swansea to Fishguard.
On the train from Rosslare to Dublin l didnt see anyone else making the connection other than myself. It was a lovely journey but sadly it is very lightly used.

That was also my experience a few weeks ago out & back on the lunchtime train (just for the ride) - maybe 6-10 passengers to/from the boat, probably more to/from Fishguard & Goodwick (which also had a fairly full station car park). I can see the viability of the service depending rather more on the traffic from Fishguard & Goodwick than the harbour station in the future.

 

[berneyarms]

I wouldn't say decimated, they are still around and still make money, the Holyhead - Dublin crossing is especially busy.
It's just a different market they serve, ie RoRo freight and people with cars

Apologies - I’m referring to foot passenger traffic. I’ve edited my post to make that abundantly clear.

This thread is about sail/rail traffic on the Irish Sea. That element of ferry usage has been decimated by low cost air travel and the massive expansion of destinations and frequency of flights available.