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My idea for a new DMU order for rural lines

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Altnabreac

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Lots of threads about pacer replacement and potential diesel multiple unit rolling stock orders have mentioned the issues around the uncertainty for ROSCOs in financing new DMU rolling stock orders given the likely continued expansion of electrification in Control Period 6 and beyond.

This is understandable as a ROSCO will not want to end up with a fleet of 200 carriages of commuter specified 172s only suitable for running on lines which are now to be electrified well before the end of a potential design life 30 – 40 years in the future.

Given the need for additional stock to allow services to be strengthened, new routes operated and non DDA compliant stock to be timeously replaced, the question that those with a long term role in planning the industry should be asking is what routes will not be electrified at the end of a 40 year design life of a new build DMU ordered in 2013-15 for delivery in 2016-2018?

When we look at the Network Rail Electrification RUS this gives us a reasonable idea of what routes are likely to be upgraded in the medium term. Appendix 7 – Core + Further options on p115 of the document is a reasonable outline of what the electrified network might look like by around 2025 with currently announced plans augmented by the obvious next stage routes like: completing the core cross-country network; Berks & Hants; Basingstoke – Salisbury – Exeter; Felixstowe – Peterborough; Chiltern and Snow Hill lines etc.

The ongoing Electrification refresh strategy is likely to update this further and reflect some of the changes which have happened since then, for example the Valley lines do not feature on the Core + further options map, yet are likely to be delivered well before many of the other schemes.

For a better vision of the 2050 network which is what concerns ROSCOs involved in DMU procurement, we are probably better looking at Figure 5.1 Gaps on page 44 of the RUS. As the appendices make clear, several of these schemes do not currently have positive BCRs but as both fuel costs and passenger traffic levels increase, it is likely that these lines are going to be next in the queue for electrification.

If I ran a ROSCO prudently planning for the future, I would certainly assume that any line with a passenger train frequency of 2tph will be electrified before my new build DMU is likely to be scrapped.

Beyond these lines it is likely that other rural and branch lines with at least 1tph frequency will potentially be viable for electrification in future. I could see Nottingham - Worksop; the Devon and Cornwall branches; Manchester – Northwich – Chester; and Skegness – Grantham being in this next potential batch.

Some other routes may by this point have been subject to upgrading to allow increased frequency to 1tph, Aberdeen – Inverness and Aberystwyth – Shrewsbury spring to mind.

Other routes likely to be electrified eventually include strategic freight routes and those with additional use as a diversionary route for major intercity routes (or both). Examples of these might be Settle – Carlisle and the Glasgow - South Western route south of Kilmarnock.

Additionally some lower frequency routes may be electrified as they interwork with higher frequency electrified routes, an example of this might be Bishop Auckland – Darlington and Milford Haven - Swansea.

The lines we can be fairly certain WILL NOT be electrified, even in 2050, are those that will only ever have a service of 1 train per 2 hours or less, have no diversionary value and little freight traffic.

These lines can quickly be identified: (with un-electrified section in brackets)
  1. Far North Lines and Kyle of Lochalsh
  2. West Highland Line (north of Craigendoran)
  3. Girvan – Stranraer
  4. Leeds – Morecambe (Carnforth – Hellifield)
  5. Whitby Line (Nunthorpe – Whitby)
  6. Yorkshire Coast Line (Filey – Bridlington)
  7. Llandudno Junction – Blaenau Ffestiniog
  8. Heart of Wales Line (Craven Arms – Llanelli)
  9. Cambrian Coast (Dovey Junction – Pwllheli)
  10. Pembroke Dock branch (Whitland – Pembroke Dock)
  11. Fishguard Harbour branch (north of Clarbeston Road)

Apart from these there will be a few parliamentary services and odd lines like Brigg – Gainsborough Central that need DMUs to keep them going, but lets assume this is where the last of the current build of DMUs end up finishing out their lives.

So for the ROSCO then the safe bet in procuring DMU traction which will have a guaranteed 40 year usage life is to build a unit suited to these lines which are primarily longer distance, rural, tourism focussed lines.

A 2 car DMU with low RA similar to the Class 156 seems a reasonable bet for all these lines. It would need a 75mph top speed and a layout composed primarily of 2+2 table based seating with only occasional airline seats.

In the centre of the train we would have an accessible retention tank toilet, a large space for bikes (similar to a 156) and luggage as well as space for refreshment trolleys, (possibly including a small galley to allow additional hot water supplies to be stored / obtained and basic hot food to be microwaved for at seat service).

Additional features would include air conditioning, wifi and plug sockets (which will be a must for this market in future as tourists are increasingly bringing cameras, laptops and phones that eat up the power).

A couple of features we could borrow from the Glacier Express include the extra height panorama car windows and at seat information sockets allowing the supply of interesting journey information in a variety of languages via headphones.

Add in an ICE style drivers view observation so passengers can see both the track ahead and the views behind and we have a premium tourism product that will drive passengers and revenue onto these rural railways while also freeing up existing DMUs to allow pacer replacement and service strengthening.

These lines are never going to be electrified and a specialist tourist focussed service like this allows ROSCOs confidence that they are funding something that will continue to be useful over a 40 year design life.

Over to you guys. Does this sound sensible? How many units would you need to cover these routes? Could DfT, Transport Scotland and the Welsh Assembly co-operate enough to manage a joint procurement exercise for this new class?
 
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northwichcat

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Beyond these lines it is likely that other rural and branch lines with at least 1tph frequency will potentially be viable for electrification in future. I could see Nottingham - Worksop; the Devon and Cornwall branches; Manchester – Northwich – Chester; and Skegness – Grantham being in this next potential batch.

I'd say if the proposed extension of the Manchester Airport spur in CP6 gets the go ahead then Manchester Airport-Mobberley-Northwich-Chester would be an electrification possibly if the North Wales coast line was also done.

This would allow North TPE service extensions from the Airport to North Wales or Liverpool via Northwich and Runcorn.

Then the other bits would be done as in-fill.

However, if it doesn't go ahead and Greenbank-Chester remains at 1tph then it's more difficult to justify. Also there's the possibly of the Sandbach-Northwich line re-opening to regular passenger services with a 1tph service (as well as the existing very occasional freight and diversions) so that would increase the amount of in-fill to do to get rid of diesels altogether.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Not a bad idea, though I think you might struggle to fit all of those facilities into a 2-car DMU without compromising capacity too much- in high season they'd need to work in multiple to provide enough space on the WHL/Kyle lines- which then means that some of the facilities are needlessly duplicated. It'd also be hard to combine the flexibility of through-gangwayed stock such as 156s with the drivers'-eye-view/observation car facilities. On that basis a 3/4-car formation would be required, though this would be excessive in the low-season.

I'd often wondered if it would be a good idea for Scotrail to rebuild/refurbish a small number of their 156s to be more suited to the tourist market on the West Highland/Kyle/Far North lines. If they were converted to 3/4-car formations with a mini-buffet and an observation saloon they'd be ideal for tourists and might also be ideal on other routes you mentioned in your post- such as HOWL and the Cambrian Coast.

Some might say that such an exercise, be it conversions or new-build, would be a waste of finite resources- but there are several examples in Europe of trains being designed for specific routes with tourism in mind. The metre-gauge 'Ligne de Cerdagne' in French Catalonia springs to mind, with vintage open-air carriages still used in summer alongside the modern Stadler mini-EMUs which also have large windows for passengers to appreciate the scenery.
 
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anthony263

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The Welsh Governement do seem to want to wire to Milford Haven which will benefit freight services especially if they are given the power to borrow money. I do hope they decide to do the Fishguard and Pembroke Dock branches while they are at it. In the case of the latter the better acceleration of emu's will certainly improve reliability.

Class 155' or 156's should be used on heart of wales line services
 

northwichcat

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The Welsh Governement do seem to want to wire to Milford Haven which will benefit freight services especially if they are given the power to borrow money.

Isn't the usually the case with the Welsh Government - they want to invest in projects but don't have any money raised in Wales to invest in the projects that they want to invest in?
 

anthony263

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Isn't the usually the case with the Welsh Government - they want to invest in projects but don't have any money raised in Wales to invest in the projects that they want to invest in?

Correct .

That said there are some in both the welsh and uk governments who think a deal could be done perhaps as a way to promote the union and persuade the scots to vote no to .

Would be nice if Mr Osbourne and the westminster government says yes, it would certainly make them look good.
 

Gareth Marston

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You have added complication of ERTMS on Cambrian as well to consider. 158's will not go on forever and retrofitting ertms into older units is one of the lessons of not to do from the ertms pilot trial.
 

anthony263

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You have added complication of ERTMS on Cambrian as well to consider. 158's will not go on forever and retrofitting ertms into older units is one of the lessons of not to do from the ertms pilot trial.

Certainly agree with that in fact atw really should have been fitted with ertms instead or in adidtion to the class 158's which would have given atw more flexibility with what units could work cambrian line services although you would have a problem if a 175 failed and the only units close at hand were class 158's.

Some new units will need to be built to replace class 150's etc as I cant really see them lasting after 2035.

Maybe by then alternative fuel technology would be more advanced or the decision is given to electrify the cambrian line in addition to other routes
 

Bevan Price

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Some interesting points, although I think I would add a few more lines unlikely to be electrified :

Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth
Barrow - Whitehaven / Carlisle.
Dyce - Inverness.
Newquay, Looe & Falmouth branches.
Swansea or Llanelli - Carmarthen - Milford Haven (unless Welsh Assembly pays for it...)
Possibly also Ipswich - Lowestoft.

I would also expect some of the 150s to need replacement from 2025 / 2030 onwards, and the 155, 156 & 158s from about 2030 /2035. .

So, maybe a need for a series of smallish orders for an updated Class 172 from 2025 onwards ?
 

HSTEd

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The Newquay branch sees significant through traffic from the mainline, including XC services on a Saturday, as as such could be expected to be electrified as an oddon to the Cornish Main Line.

The Looe and Falmouth branches are both sufficiently short that they are relatively "good value" in terms of diesel units eliminated. (one at looe, two at Falmouth).

So yeah, I think all of those would be electrified, as would the St Ives branch for the same reason.
 

WatcherZero

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Factoring in a disabled toilet, seats for medium/long distance with plenty of tables and storage space and the fact these are likely to be the last built for a long time, I wonder if perhaps making them three coach 60m long electrodiesels might be better, while some might be pretty empty during the day or in winter making them three carriages would provide long term capacity, plenty of space for peak or event loads without having to strengthen and if as likely the engine to be efficent could not be mounted underfloor makes up for that lost space. The center car would provide the power and could be swapped out for a panto graph car if they were unexpectedly electrified while the driving cars have the powered axles minimising the costs for conversion (i.e. conversion would only require a new trailer car with pantograph feeding into the power bus), diesel control electronics would be in the center car.
 

Gareth Marston

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Some interesting points, although I think I would add a few more lines unlikely to be electrified :

Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth
Barrow - Whitehaven / Carlisle.
Dyce - Inverness.
Newquay, Looe & Falmouth branches.
Swansea or Llanelli - Carmarthen - Milford Haven (unless Welsh Assembly pays for it...)
Possibly also Ipswich - Lowestoft.

I would also expect some of the 150s to need replacement from 2025 / 2030 onwards, and the 155, 156 & 158s from about 2030 /2035. .

So, maybe a need for a series of smallish orders for an updated Class 172 from 2025 onwards ?

The Cambrian Main Line is 82 miles long its not a short add on by any means. Complicating factor on any rural DMU order is that its is relatively quick east of Talerddig, Newtown to Shrewsbury is 33 miles and 38 minutes a schedule some InterCity services dont do. 158's are the wrong sort of unit for the cambrian coast unless they come through from West Midlands as through portion. However I do think there is a clear and obvious gap between accommodating growth and what cascades through electrification will allow.Meaning unless we choke off demand there has to be some sort of DMU order.

A new rural DMU has merits in that:
It will be a clear statement of intent as to who will get wires and who doesn't.
We can get on with planing cascades and freed up 15x/16x/17x DMU's from rural routes can go to strengthen lines to be electrified.
It should be easy to derive a figure for the numbers of units needed and specify something purpose built that's suited to scenic lines/luggage/bike space etc.
They'll automatically be ertms compatible as well no expensive retrofitting.That will help NR and its signalling plans.
It will knock a big nail in the coffin of bustitution. A new rural DMU by 2020 will have a 35 year life span.
It can be used to re invigorate lines set is aspic by their PSR's i e Whitby, HoW.

Wales will be a fairly large recipient of them, theirs already talk of turning Landore over to ATW after South Wales electrification as a base for west Wales DMU's and Machynlleth depot is here already.

As an absolute minimum to preserve existing levels of service you would need 20, one for Conwy Valley, eight for Cambrian and ten in Swansea (Landore)
 

anthony263

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Wales will be a fairly large recipient of them, theirs already talk of turning Landore over to ATW after South Wales electrification as a base for west Wales DMU's and Machynlleth depot is here already.

As an absolute minimum to preserve existing levels of service you would need 20, one for Conwy Valley, eight for Cambrian and ten in Swansea (Landore)

I do hope that is the case that Llandore is put to use by ATW.
That could perhaps release some space at Canton.

I can see use having a shake up of the timetable with some diesel service being cut back to Swansea or Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads with emu's being used.

This could mean trains from west wales terminating at Swansea and trains from Manchester terminating at Cardiff Central.

If this does prove to be the case how about a hourly Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol - Bath service certainly is is a service that would be well used especially if the service frequency between Cardiff & Bristol TM is increased to 4tph in addition to the half hourly service to London.
 
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Some interesting points, although I think I would add a few more lines unlikely to be electrified :

Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth
Barrow - Whitehaven / Carlisle.
Dyce - Inverness.
Newquay, Looe & Falmouth branches.
Swansea or Llanelli - Carmarthen - Milford Haven (unless Welsh Assembly pays for it...)
Possibly also Ipswich - Lowestoft.

I would also expect some of the 150s to need replacement from 2025 / 2030 onwards, and the 155, 156 & 158s from about 2030 /2035. .

So, maybe a need for a series of smallish orders for an updated Class 172 from 2025 onwards ?

Why Ipswich to Lowestoft, now has an hourly service each way since the passing loop being installed at the Lowestofteft end

That suggests to me that they think the line has a future

The only line that I think won't be electrified in East Anglia is the Norwich to Sherringham and Norwich to Yarmouth (section through Berney Arms only)

Also Bury St Edmunds to Cambridge might miss out
 

HSTEd

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How long is the section through Berney Arms? If the diversion is only a handful of miles long, then it will likely be done anyway.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The first DMU-dominated franchises to be rebid are Northern/TP in February 2016 (GW follows 6 months later).
So by the end of 2014 (18 months from now) the decisions on what shape the new franchises(s) will take should have been made and the train service spec published.
That will tell us how much more, if any, electrification is intended in the north.
From that you should be able to deduce DMU cascades over the following decade or so.
With "hardly used" fleets of 17x/18x/22x units around I don't think there will be a rush to order new ones.

This round of electrification is relatively cheap because the EMU rolling stock is mostly being cascaded.
Next time the business case might have to include new stock and be that much more difficult to fund.
 

HSTEd

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We are not going to be short of cascaded EMUs in the near future.

There is most of the PEP fleet to cascade after all (since Merseyrail 507/8s could take over Southern's 313 operations and allow the 313s to move elsewhere).
Then most of the Mark 3 derived fleeet to cascade with Thameslink and so on.
 

anthony263

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Not forgetting the heathrow connect class 360's. Of course Greater Anglia could get hol do them however I think if not someone could persude the WG to run the swanline service using class 360's rather than 315's.

That would require the 5th coach in these units to be removed, Greater anglia might be interested in strengthening their cass 360's
 

WatcherZero

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We are not going to be short of cascaded EMUs in the near future.

There is most of the PEP fleet to cascade after all (since Merseyrail 507/8s could take over Southern's 313 operations and allow the 313s to move elsewhere).
Then most of the Mark 3 derived fleeet to cascade with Thameslink and so on.

I thought part of the reason Merseyrail was getting rid of their 5xx was because maintence costs had balooned in recent years as their condition deteriorated?
 

D365

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I thought part of the reason Merseyrail was getting rid of their 50x was because maintenance costs had ballooned in recent years as their condition deteriorated?

Wasn't that why they've rejected the 508s in store, because these are in even poorer condition than the Merseyrail fleet..? I think we can forget about seeing any of the 50x fleet in use elsewhere.
 

Bevan Price

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The Newquay branch sees significant through traffic from the mainline, including XC services on a Saturday, as as such could be expected to be electrified as an oddon to the Cornish Main Line.

The Looe and Falmouth branches are both sufficiently short that they are relatively "good value" in terms of diesel units eliminated. (one at looe, two at Falmouth).

So yeah, I think all of those would be electrified, as would the St Ives branch for the same reason.

I don't disagee that most should be electrified, but apart from St. Ives (and maybe Falmouth), I would be surprised if those in power agree to electrification of the Cornish branches. And if Falmouth is to be justified, I think it would need some through services to/from at least Plymouth, rather than making all passengers change at Truro.
 

HSTEd

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I don't disagee that most should be electrified, but apart from St. Ives (and maybe Falmouth), I would be surprised if those in power agree to electrification of the Cornish branches. And if Falmouth is to be justified, I think it would need some through services to/from at least Plymouth, rather than making all passengers change at Truro.

If you electrify the Cornish Main line, then it becomes sensible to electrify the branches simply because the amount of wiring required to displace a diesel unit is so much lower than elsewhere.
 
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I don't disagee that most should be electrified, but apart from St. Ives (and maybe Falmouth), I would be surprised if those in power agree to electrification of the Cornish branches. And if Falmouth is to be justified, I think it would need some through services to/from at least Plymouth, rather than making all passengers change at Truro.

Imo Falmouth should have some through trains to Plymouth/ Exeter /Penzance/ Newquay

A rolling electrification program should be carried on until most/ all of the UK passenger Network is electrified. No new DMU's would then be required.
A big mistake made at the end of steam, which should have continued for a few more years, to have allowed for major electrification to take place back then.
 

anthony263

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Imo Falmouth should have some through trains to Plymouth/ Exeter /Penzance/ Newquay

A rolling electrification program should be carried on until most/ all of the UK passenger Network is electrified. No new DMU's would then be required.
A big mistake made at the end of steam, which should have continued for a few more years, to have allowed for major electrification to take place back then.

There was an idea passed around of a coast-coast service running from Newquay to Falmouth.

I agree if they wire to Penzance then they may as well do teh branches the same could be said of the Pembroke Dock and Fishguard branches if the wires reach Milford Haven.

The heart of wales line would be tough one especially if the marches and Cambrian happned to be wired in the future, personally I would just electrify it to get rid of a diesel island
 

Greybeard33

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There was an idea passed around of a coast-coast service running from Newquay to Falmouth.

I agree if they wire to Penzance then they may as well do teh branches the same could be said of the Pembroke Dock and Fishguard branches if the wires reach Milford Haven.

The heart of wales line would be tough one especially if the marches and Cambrian happned to be wired in the future, personally I would just electrify it to get rid of a diesel island
Section 8.4 of the Network Rail Alternative Solutions Draft RUS considers "Alternative methods of delivery of electric traction on lower traffic density routes", which makes interesting reading. One of the options it considers is trolley wire electrification, about which it says:
As self powered rolling stock needs to be replaced on non-electrified routes, an alternative means to achieve the benefits of electric traction would be desirable. For routes with lower line speeds, other lower cost options such as using 25kV AC trolley wire electrification may be appropriate. One or two contact wires are suspended from OLE masts without a supporting catenary wire, which reduces the weight of the overhead wires and reduces the required strength and height of masts. This kind of electrification has not been implemented outside locations such as terminal stations, freight yards, and depots. It may be possible for routes with line speeds of less than 60mph. This approach should be considered where appropriate, for future electrification schemes. It will need to be balanced against the savings in conventional electrification costs that could be delivered through both efficiencies and economies of scale and future flexibility of use on a particular corridor.
This might be a possibility for the Far North/Kyle/West Highland/Heart of Wales/Cambrian lines as well as the Cornish branches. The "sparks effect" would be particularly beneficial in stimulating tourist traffic, especially on hilly lines (as in Switzerland).
 

edwin_m

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DfT commissioned a report on low-cost electrification for branch lines (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-cost-electrification-for-branch-lines) which looked at various ideas. However it starts from the assumption that the relevant main line would not be electrified, which leads to the conclusion that 750VDC electrification might be preferred for the branch line. Since most of the main lines would in fact be electrified this conclusion probably does not stand, and a simplified AC scheme would likely be cheaper and would certainly increase the flexibility of the rolling stock.
 

northwichcat

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DfT commissioned a report on low-cost electrification for branch lines (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-cost-electrification-for-branch-lines) which looked at various ideas. However it starts from the assumption that the relevant main line would not be electrified, which leads to the conclusion that 750VDC electrification might be preferred for the branch line. Since most of the main lines would in fact be electrified this conclusion probably does not stand, and a simplified AC scheme would likely be cheaper and would certainly increase the flexibility of the rolling stock.

It would mean dual voltage stock would be needed for most branch lines due to them joining mainlines at some point? For example, if Manchester to Holyhead/Llandudno gets AC electrification then Helsby will have AC electrification but Helsby-Ellesmere Port is a branch line.
 

ainsworth74

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Don't we already have a model for how to electrify a branch line at low cost? Namely the Paisley Canal Line which was done quickly and cheaply.
 

northwichcat

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Don't we already have a model for how to electrify a branch line at low cost? Namely the Paisley Canal Line which was done quickly and cheaply.

What's the frequency of the service and how does the reliability of the electrics fair? As you'll be aware people on here criticise the ECML wires for being done on the cheap and that resulting in poor reliability.
 

ainsworth74

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What's the frequency of the service and how does the reliability of the electrics fair? As you'll be aware people on here criticise the ECML wires for being done on the cheap and that resulting in poor reliability.

The line sees 2tph in each direction throughout the day and as far as I'm aware it's perfectly reliable. Certainly everyone seems to be singing the praises of NR and SR for getting it done. You don't need to gold plate branch line electrification where the line speeds are going to be low and frequencies relatively low.
 
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