My idea for a new class system for trains

[northwichcat]

With many trains due to be replaced or refurbished over the coming years due to DDA, it would seem an ideal time to review seating patterns and classes on trains.

How about the following idea:

Intercity and Regional Express trains to have 1st class and regional class. (The reason for that name will follow.) 1st class needs to have 2+1 seating while 2nd class needs to have 2+2 seating. There should also be requirements on tables, leg room and amount of seat padding used.

Local and commuter trains to have standard class and regional class. Both classes would have 2+2 seating but regional class would be the same standard as on Intercity and Regional Express but standard class can have less comfy seats, doesn't need to have tables and can have slightly less leg room than regional class.

Now with tickets:

Journeys over 50 miles get up to two options: Regional class and First class (if FC is available.) Regional class would be the same cost as standard currently.

Journeys under 50 miles also get up to three options: Standard class, Regional class and First Class (where available). Standard class and first class would be the same cost as currently, regional class would incur a cost in between the two.

I think regional class would have the following advantages:

1. If you make a journey like Southport to Buxton or Southport to Chester then you're not spending an extended amount of time on commuter style seating and consequently make taking the train on such journeys a more attractive option.

2. It would mean operators like Southern can't just offer an inferior first class service and brand it as first class, but have an intermediate classification to use opposed to different standards of standard class.

3. It allows an upgrade for commuters in all areas which guarantees them tables and better seating. With Northern currently you pay the same price whether it's 142 style seating that would be impossible to work at or 158 style seating which provides a good working environment if not too crowded.

 

[Clip]

Just out of interest - why bother with a certain seat padding? You are not going to end up pleasing all of the people all of the time so while you are looking after your bum in what you would like to sit on, may be uncomfortable for someone else.

What requirements on tables and leg room do you suggest? And why?

This whole regional class thing just sounds weird and adds yet another layer to an already over complicated system of seating and class.

We have 1st and Standard. They pretty much speak for themselves. Even Im still struggling to understand your 'Regional class' system.

 

[northwichcat]

Just out of interest - why bother with a certain seat padding?

Because of what's happened with Desiros on TPE services.

What requirements on tables and leg room do you suggest? And why?

I'd suggest research would need to be done on this and the exact requirements would depend on the conclusions reached from the research.

We have 1st and Standard. They pretty much speak for themselves.

I don't agree at all. The tickets are sold as first and standard class but the standard of standard class accommodation on trains could probably be given 20 or more categories. Do you really think standard class aboard an East Coast mallard set is the same as on a Desiro and the same as a Pacer?

I did omit to mention that on Intercity and Regional Express trains people doing local journeys would get a free upgrade to regional class opposed to having 3 standard of classes on one train. To me that would be the confusing thing but no more confusing than Virgin offering free weekend upgrades to holders of certain tickets.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely a better thing to do at this point would be to eliminate 2+3 seating and move to entirely 2+2 in second and entirely 2+1 in first?

2+2 with extra standing room is probably more space efficient than 2+3, as in many cases when the train is heavily loaded many of the middle seats on the three side are left empty while people stand.

 

[Clip]

Because of what's happened with Desiros on TPE services.

So we have to base our whole seating requirements now based on one class of trains for one TOC? Amazing.

I'd suggest research would need to be done on this and the exact requirements would depend on the conclusions reached from the research.

I can do some now.Everyone would love their own table and not just a flip down one, thanks. Also everyones height is difference so I want decent leg room for a 6'4" person on all trains.

I don't agree at all. The tickets are sold as first and standard class but the standard of standard class accommodation on trains could probably be given 20 or more categories. Do you really think standard class aboard an East Coast mallard set is the same as on a Desiro and the same as a Pacer?

Standard class is not classed on what sort of seats are provided nor on what vehicles are used. The whole ethos of First class is that you are paying for a luxury. Standard clas is just that - a standardisation of the ticket accross the board.

I did omit to mention that on Intercity and Regional Express trains people doing local journeys would get a free upgrade to regional class opposed to having 3 standard of classes on one train. To me that would be the confusing thing but no more confusing than Virgin offering free weekend upgrades to holders of certain tickets.

It just doesnt make sense to introduce another class of travel on a train. Most people just want to bloody get there in a reasonable amount of time for a reasonable price. Another layer of ticketing just adds to the confusion and then adds to special exclusions and so on and so forth

And I do realise I have multi quoted that badly.

 

[stut]

Surely a better thing to do at this point would be to eliminate 2+3 seating and move to entirely 2+2 in second and entirely 2+1 in first?

2+2 with extra standing room is probably more space efficient than 2+3, as in many cases when the train is heavily loaded many of the middle seats on the three side are left empty while people stand.

This. The refurbished SWT 455s demonstrate how to make this change effective.

Perhaps instead of the proposed "regional class", we could have:

"Connection class" - first class only ever used by people connecting to inter-city services

"Orcats class" - a handful of seats there purely to get a share of the revenue

"Scrote class" - an unpoliced compartment labelled as first class, but easily hosed down. The idea is to become a magnet for the various scrotes, flamin' galahs and ne'erdowells who congregate in little-used first class sections, and keep them away from the rest of the punters in standard.

"Bankers class" - a highly-priced first class compartment for those poor bankers who want to lord it, but whose bonus will sadly not buy this year's Porsche. Should be easily detachable and derailable. A little like Scrote class, really.

 

[telstarbox]

I agree with your point about poor First Class on Southern/SouthEastern but the rest sounds a bit complicated to me. I think the solution is more about using appropriate stock on each line rather than changing the existing classes.

With the exception of Intercity routes with complimentary food/alcohol, there isn't enough difference between Standard and First to have another differentiated class between them.

What would you do with the Class 185 which runs both commuter journeys (eg Liverpool - Manchester Airport, under 50 miles) and regional services (eg Manchester Airport - Glasgow)? How about the 2-car Class 158s which currently have no First Class anyway?

 

[northwichcat]

What would you do with the Class 185 which runs both commuter journeys (eg Liverpool - Manchester Airport, under 50 miles) and regional services (eg Manchester Airport - Glasgow)?

Liverpool to Manchester Airport is a class 156 operated service not a 185 operated service.

 

[telstarbox]

Sorry - my mistake.

 

[HH]

As I understand it the new Class 700s will have 2+2 seating in Standard. TBH this should be everywhere these days - people are just too large for 3+2. Heathrow Express has just changed its First Class to 1+1...

 

[34D]

I am in agreement with the OP that the differential between accommodation is too wide.

Between peterborough and London there are six different options for accommodation:

1 EC first class
2 EC standard
3 networker first
4 networker standard
5 class 317 first
6 class 317 standard

On some trains, 2 and 5 are the exact same seats.

I too would like to see a consistant first class product.

Others will disagree, but I propose the names first class, business class, and economy. No train would have more than two.

As the OP said, first class would be the luxury 2+1 seats, with at-seat tea/coffee (as a minimum), and business class would be 2+2 seats reasonable comfort, some with tables, with drinks available for part of the journey (trolley or buffet) in my opinion standard class intercity, then the comfier units such as 158, 365, 377, 444 etc etc. Ecomony would be everything else ie all 2+3, pacers, 319, 455 etc etc.

Trains such as scotrail 158s would have business/economy (based on current layouts), northern 158s would be just business, and to keep this simple for ticket purposes, those with a 1st class ticket sit in the highest available class of accommodation and those with standard class in the lowest.

 

[GodAtum]

I think a better option would be 1st, standard and 3rd. 3rd could be all standing.

 

[Pugwash]

Surely a better thing to do at this point would be to eliminate 2+3 seating and move to entirely 2+2 in second and entirely 2+1 in first?

2+2 with extra standing room is probably more space efficient than 2+3, as in many cases when the train is heavily loaded many of the middle seats on the three side are left empty while people stand.

How on earth would hat be achieved ? - On Greater Anglia it is rare to ever see a spare seat on a 2+3, the trains are packed with full and standing.

 

[northwichcat]

3rd could be all standing.

That sounds like a Michael O'Leary idea.

 

[SS4]

How about 1st class has to be a required standard? This would stop companies advertising first class when in reality it's little better/no different to standard which would be called 2nd class.
Passengers aren't dumb, they know full well they're passing up on benefits for a reduction in price

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

How on earth would hat be achieved ? - On Greater Anglia it is rare to ever see a spare seat on a 2+3, the trains are packed with full and standing.

Yes, but more floor space equals more passengers. A seat takes up much more space than a standing human.

 

[HH]

Yes, but more floor space equals more passengers. A seat takes up much more space than a standing human.

Exactly the new plans are like the Metropolitan Tube trains. Less seats, more standing room. In Peak you get on easier and can at least stand in a bit more space. Off Peak there's plenty enough seats.

 

[telstarbox]

I think a better option would be 1st, standard and 3rd. 3rd could be all standing.

Then if it was full and standing in Standard, passengers would expect a refund.

 

[reb0118]

Then if it was full and standing in Standard, passengers would expect a refund.

No you would require a standard ticket to stand in standard just like you require a first ticket to stand in first.

 

[telstarbox]

But if the only difference between Standard and 3rd is the provision of seating, then by standing you're getting 3rd service but paying for a Standard ticket. Also no-one stands in First and pays for it - it would be declassified if the train was that busy, and so refunds would apply.

 

[Class377/5]

As I understand it the new Class 700s will have 2+2 seating in Standard. TBH this should be everywhere these days - people are just too large for 3+2. Heathrow Express has just changed its First Class to 1+1...

Correct. The need for passengers to be be able to circulate is important factor for the stations the serve as much as the need to have lots if seating.

However going back to the original post, why have more than one class? Why not scrap 1st class altogether? Works for Chilterm and atleast one SE TOC asked the DfT to remove all first class from their trains, so there is a desire to standardise fleets.

 

[Bald Rick]

"Scrote class" - an unpoliced compartment labelled as first class, but easily hosed down. The idea is to become a magnet for the various scrotes, flamin' galahs and ne'erdowells who congregate in little-used first class sections, and keep them away from the rest of the punters in standard.

Already available whenever a 319/4 strays onto the Wimbledon Loop.

But you missed the most important: "free-staff-travel-first class" - a first class compartment purely for staff use where we, sorry I mean they, can talk about sensitive industry matters in private / last night's footy without interruption from standard class ticket holders chancing their luck with the RPIs. Or am I missing the point.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

However going back to the original post, why have more than one class? Why not scrap 1st class altogether? Works for Chilterm and atleast one SE TOC asked the DfT to remove all first class from their trains, so there is a desire to standardise fleets.

Because First Class fares subsidise Standard fares massively. Remove them and you'll find Standard fares will rocket. That's my understanding anyway.

 

[Oswyntail]

What is important is to have set standards for each class, consistent across TOCs, in terms of seating, catering, ambience. I do believe that there should also be a differentiation between the standards for inter-urban and "commuting" services, so three classes might be appropriate.

 

[Daz28]

I would like to see all TOC franchises run as management contracts only, with all standard class revenue collected by Dft and each TOC delivering a defined level of service for a fee. I would then allow the TOCs to compete on first class service where they would keep the revenue. TOCs would be free to order additional carriages to enhance their first class service and put on additional trains so long as each had a minimum number of standard class carriages.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Already available whenever a 319/4 strays onto the Wimbledon Loop.

But you missed the most important: "free-staff-travel-first class" - a first class compartment purely for staff use where we, sorry I mean they, can talk about sensitive industry matters in private / last night's footy without interruption from standard class ticket holders chancing their luck with the RPIs. Or am I missing the point.

Anybody would think this was a regular occurence on FCC North !!! - staff having industry conversations and so on - SURELY NOT !! An outrage.

Who remembers the ill- fated pre privatisation gaff by a senior politician who suggested a "secretary's class on trains" ?

 

[Oswyntail]

....a "secretary's class on trains" ?

Not a bad idea, and one that was trialled (IIRC) on XP64. Office facilities were available, and screened-off areas where people could actually do work in private.

 

[gordonthemoron]

they should return to 1st Class and 2nd Class, rather than the Standard rubbish introduced by BR because they wanted to remove 1st Class

 

[yorksrob]

Who remembers the ill- fated pre privatisation gaff by a senior politician who suggested a "secretary's class on trains" ?

I remember that. I believe he later said that he had envisaged something more like the three tier system used on airlines with standard, business and first.

Quite prescient with the airline thing at any rate !

In my view, 1st needs to be distinctive. Nice meals and free booze on Inter-City trains, comfy compartments on secondary and commuter services.

 

[Oswyntail]

they should return to 1st Class and 2nd Class, rather than the Standard rubbish introduced by BR because they wanted to remove 1st Class

Er, what? "Standard" was introduced because the term "2nd Class" has overwhelmingly negative connotations, Nothing to do with getting rid of 1st Class.