My CrossCountry Idea

[ag51ruk]

No trains via Doncaster, no fast trains Sheffield - Derby - Birmingham? Looks like too many long distance trains stopping too often, but poor Willington loses all of its trains!

 

[randyrippley]

Same fundamental mistake as the current timetable: no trains from Lancashire / Cumbria to the southwest or south. Or from Scotland. We don't all want to go to London, and we certainly don't want to change at New St

 

[6Gman]

You don’t go all the way into Cambridge to come out again to do Norwich. It’s pointless.

Stop it!

Need a Like button on here.

 

[tbtc]

<SWANSEA PORTSMOUTH BRIGHTON AND RAMSGATE KLAXON> Everyone take cover....

Also "trying to run long distance trains over the flat crossing at Newark".

(I know this is the "speculative" section, so I don't want to pick apart every detail, I don't want to look unfair, I appreciate the crayonista nature of this neck of the woods, but I'd respectfully suggest that people don't get so carried away with the pairing up of places on opposite sides of Birmingham - e.g. it doesn't really matter whether the Bournemouth service runs to Newcastle/ Manchester/ Liverpool - in the way that people get hung up about whether Scarborough or Middlesbrough "deserve" a service to Manchester Airport or Liverpool - or whether Cambridge or Norwich are more "deserving" of a service to Liverpool or Birmingham - or whether the Wythenshaw services on Manchester Metrolink need to run through to Bury or Oldham - or whether the Thameslink service from Bedford goes to whichever destination south of the Thames - the numbers doing such long distance journeys are so small that it's not worth getting into an argument about pairing them up - these kind of threads would be much better focussing on showing all of the services as far as Birmingham rather than worrying too much about whether the couple of services a day from Aberdeen go to Penzance/ Cardiff/ Reading/ Brighton/ wherever)

 

[elliotjelliot]

just cut as far as Ashford. You could have the second two-hourly service from Nottingham extend to Ashford?

You could actually. The Sout East does have poor rail links to destinations beyond london. Though having javelin High Speed services could eliminate the need for a XC service to Ashford

 

[elliotjelliot]

Thanks but no thanks.

Spend another 7 years and come back with a better idea.

This is a speculative ideas thread where people should be able to discuss their ideas sensibly. Your sarcasm isn't very courteous. Perhaps you come up with decent ideas everyone supports before you start tearing into others.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This is a speculative ideas thread where people should be able to discuss their ideas sensibly. Your sarcasm isn't very courteous. Perhaps you come up with decent ideas everyone supports before you start tearing into others.

Correct. Maybe 4-SUB 4732 should come up with some ideas before criticising and maybe turn down his tone.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Correct. Maybe 4-SUB 4732 should come up with some ideas before criticising and maybe turn down his tone.

Or maybe it’s not felt necessary to contribute ideas to a forum as it’s not going to be seen by the right people and won’t be interpreted properly?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Or maybe it’s not felt necessary to contribute ideas to a forum as it’s not going to be seen by the right people and won’t be interpreted properly?

You could at least try! In other words you criticize other people’s ideas but refuse to put your own on grounds they won’t interpret your idea well (in other words criticize it)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You could at least try! In other words you criticize other people’s ideas but refuse to put your own on grounds they won’t interpret your idea well (in other words criticize it)

I have contributed plenty to other XC threads. Duplication is a bad thing.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I drew up a great XC map when I was 13-I wonder where it's got to.

Some additions of mine:

Glasgow-Carlisle-Preston-Manchester-Sheffield-Derby-Leicester-Bedford-Oxford-Reading-Bournemouth

Hull to Cardiff via Birmingham

Middlesborough to Birmingham via Huddersfield

 

[quantinghome]

For this sort of exercise to be useful you need to consider what problem you are solving, and what can practically be done given the constraints of the existing network. I would ask the following questions before breaking out the crayons:

1. What is cross-country for?
I'd say it is to provide intercity services between cities and major towns which are not connected by main line services originating or terminating in London. I'd also say that cross-country is only there to provide services which are best routed through Birmingham. Other non-London long distance routes are best handled by other operators.

2. What cities/ large towns are currently not served by cross-country?
e.g. Liverpool, Hull, Bradford, Middlesbrough.

3. Are there significant missing links between UK regions?
e.g. North-east to East Anglia. North-east/Yorkshire to South Wales.

4. Given the answers to 2 and 3, what new services could be provided or existing services modified?

5. Of these new services, is the best route via Birmingham?
I'd suggest that Leeds to Cambridge/Norwich probably isn't...

6. Given the limited capacity through Birmingham, which services are the priority?

 

[6Gman]

I have for many years been working on and off for ideas for all areas of the rail network and the idea I have "completed" first is CrossCountry. So here goes.

Brand new 7 car Class 802's for all routes

Replace the current network with the following hourly routes.

Service 1: Liverpool Lime Street - Liverpool South Parkway - Runcorn - Crewe - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Smethwick Galton Bridge - Birmingham New Street - Bromsgrove - Worcestershire Parkway - Cheltenham Spa - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central

(Partly replacing the CrossCountry service from Cardiff - Birmingham and the London Northwestern Railway service from Birmingham - Liverpool, would link in with other changes to fill gaps.)

Service 2: Liverpool Lime Street - Liverpool South Parkway - Runcorn - Crewe - Stafford - Wolverhampton - Smethwick Galton Bridge - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Rugby - Rugby Parkway - Northampton - Bedford - Sandy - Cambridge

(Using a new line between Northampton and Bedford, providing a new Cambridge Link)

Do these services replace the LNW services?

If so, who picks up the stops at Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford and Penkridge?
If not, how do you find the paths through the Stour Valley?

 

[6Gman]

I have for many years been working on and off for ideas for all areas of the rail network and the idea I have "completed" first is CrossCountry. So here goes.

Brand new 7 car Class 802's for all routes

Replace the current network with the following hourly routes.

Service 5: Newcastle Central - Durham - Darlington - York - Leeds - Meadowhall - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Derby - Burton-on-Trent - Tamworth - Birmingham New Street - Bromsgrove - Worcestershire Parkway - Cheltenham Spa - Bristol Parkway - Bristol Temple Meads - Taunton - Tiverton Parkway - Exeter St Davids (With 2hrly extensions to Paignton Via Dawlish, Newton Abbot and Torquay Central [Renamed from Torre].)

Service 6: Newcastle Central - Durham - Darlington - York - Leeds - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Derby - Burton-on-Trent - Tamworth - Birmingham New Street - Birmingham International - Coventry - Rugby - Rugby Parkway - Northampton - Bedford - Sandy - Cambridge

Service 8: Lincoln Central - Newark Castle - Nottingham - Castle Donington - Burton-on-Trent - Tamworth - Wilnecote - Birmingham New Street - Coventry - Leamington Spa - Banbury - Oxford - Reading - Basingstoke - Winchester - Southampton Airport - Southampton Central (With 2hrly extensions to Bournemouth Via Brockhurst and Christchurch)

This would link in with other changes on other routes, that I will publish soon.

So major centres like Southampton, Reading and Oxford get through trains to Castle Donington and Wilnecote but not to Sheffield, Leeds, York or Newcastle?

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I always had this brilliant idea to connect two major ports on opposite ends of the country which could actually allow through tickets between Ireland and Holland, as well as open up more through destinations from North Wales (the latter being the main aim): Holyhead to Harwich International calling at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Chester, Crewe, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Nuneaton, Leicester, Oakham, Peterborough, Ely, Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich and Harwich International

 

[6Gman]

I always had this brilliant idea to connect two major ports on opposite ends of the country which could actually allow through tickets between Ireland and Holland, as well as open up more through destinations from North Wales (the latter being the main aim): Holyhead to Harwich International calling at Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Chester, Crewe, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Nuneaton, Leicester, Oakham, Peterborough, Ely, Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich and Harwich International

Or people could fly at a third of the price and in a fifth of the time.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Or people could fly at a third of the price and in a fifth of the time.

Of course, there wouldn't be a good market for Dublin to Rotterdam that wanna avoid planes, but the main thing about the route is it provides more destinations from North Wales & Chester (East Midlands and East Anglia), plus a faster service between North Wales, Chester and Birmingham! The current TfW service from Holyhead to Birmingham is too slow as it stops everywhere and is really just many local routes merged in one and North Wales coast could do with a few more express services!

 

[6Gman]

Of course, there wouldn't be a good market for Dublin to Rotterdam that wanna avoid planes, but the main thing about the route is it provides more destinations from North Wales & Chester (East Midlands and East Anglia), plus a faster service between North Wales, Chester and Birmingham! The current TfW service from Holyhead to Birmingham is too slow as it stops everywhere and is really just many local routes merged in one and North Wales coast could do with a few more express services!

What would this replace between Holyhead and Crewe? And how do you fit it in between Crewe and New Street?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or people could fly at a third of the price and in a fifth of the time.

Quite.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Or people could fly at a third of the price and in a fifth of the time.

I could only see myself using such a service just to say, “I’ve used that service”. I think that’d be the only reason anyone would use it. A bit like using the Eurostar to get to France/Belgium if you live in the North.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Or people could fly at a third of the price and in a fifth of the time.

I could only see myself using such a service just to say, “I’ve used that service”. I think that’d be the only reason anyone would use it. A bit like using the Eurostar to get to France/Belgium if you live in the North.

 

[quantinghome]

I could only see myself using such a service just to say, “I’ve used that service”. I think that’d be the only reason anyone would use it. A bit like using the Eurostar to get to France/Belgium if you live in the North.

Eurostar is far more viable from the North than you suggest, far more so than the 'Tulip-Shamrock Express' idea. Yorkshire to Belgium is probably better served by rail than flying, given the latter involves either flying from Manchester or flying into Schiphol. Paris may be preferable by train if the flight times are inconvenient.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I could only see myself using such a service just to say, “I’ve used that service”. I think that’d be the only reason anyone would use it. A bit like using the Eurostar to get to France/Belgium if you live in the North.

Again, the main aim was to provide more express services to North Wales and also an express service between Ipswich and Peterborough, plus a few new through connections as a bonus (imagine going from Bangor to Leicester or Peterborough to Chester on one train, for example).

 

[james60059]

Hope the OP doesn't mind, but I would add another diagram that would miss out BHM.

Something like this:

Bournemouth - Southampton Central - Reading - Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa - (Kenilworth - 1tp2h) - Coventry - Nuneaton - Hinckley - Narborough - Leicester - Loughborough - Attenborough - Beeston - Nottingham (maybe extend one or 2 services East, or with a reversal, extend a couple towards Worksop or Sheffield).

Stations between Coventry and Nuneaton could be catered by the half hourly WMT service which is in the pipeline, whilst additional stops at Kenilworth is obviously subject to the re-doubling of the line between Milverton Junction and Kenilworth and of course the Nuneaton call is subject to whether the infrastructure is rebuilt.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hope the OP doesn't mind, but I would add another diagram that would miss out BHM.

Something like this:

Bournemouth - Southampton Central - Reading - Oxford - Banbury - Leamington Spa - (Kenilworth - 1tp2h) - Coventry - Nuneaton - Hinckley - Narborough - Leicester - Loughborough - Attenborough - Beeston - Nottingham (maybe extend one or 2 services East, or with a reversal, extend a couple towards Worksop or Sheffield).

Stations between Coventry and Nuneaton could be catered by the half hourly WMT service which is in the pipeline, whilst additional stops at Kenilworth is obviously subject to the re-doubling of the line between Milverton Junction and Kenilworth and of course the Nuneaton call is subject to whether the infrastructure is rebuilt.

Coventry to Leicester is a non-starter, if nothing else than because you have to go to Abbey Jn and reverse.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I like the 'My CrossCountry idea' thread - excellent !

I'm not sure entirely how much training would be required but if it was up to me I'd be keen on getting the 27 (6 x 7-car, 17 x 5 car and 4 x 4-car) Class 222's when they become available from EMR in what 2022/2023 for 4 reasons...

1. We need a train newer than the HST's but better than the Voyagers and the Class 222's do that.

2. More Meridians available than the 20 Voyagers from the West Coast Mainline.

3. No need to worry about too much coupling up with these (probably not making sense here).

Also some of the carriages are longer than the Voyagers.

If it was me, I'd use some of the 5-car sets to reform into 7-car sets. The 7-car sets I'd use on a some 5-car Voyager diagrams on the Manchester & Bournemouth routes and the rest to replace 5-car Voyagers on the routes to and from Scotland and the South West.

The 4 and 5-car sets I'd be tempted to use on the routes to and from Cardiff, Birmingham and Nottingham - displacing 2 and 3-car 170's for strengthening some other XC Class 170 routes including some Cardiff and Nottingham routes.

Training I know would be required if 222's replaced 170's. It wouldn't be the first time 222's have replaced 170's in their lifetime.

I'd keep the PRM'd HST's.

I'd also be keen on a few extra services - note though that 222's can't end up at Neville Hill (EMT, now EMR, told me that their Leeds services have to be formed of an HST as Neville Hill does not have the facilities to maintain the Class 222 fleet).

The following extra services would be of great use in my opinion...

1. Some Birmingham New Street terminators from the South Coast and South West to extend to Derby.

The originally planned 20:27 from Manchester to Birmingham New Street to be extended to Reading (was planned for December 2017).

The 18:35 from Manchester to Birmingham to run through to Reading - fills the gap between the 21:04 and 22:04.

Let's not forget that Meridians were built between 2003-2005 so are still modern and that some were new as 9-car sets.

 

[elliotjelliot]

I like the 'My CrossCountry idea' thread - excellent !

I'm not sure entirely how much training would be required but if it was up to me I'd be keen on getting the 27 (6 x 7-car, 17 x 5 car and 4 x 4-car) Class 222's when they become available from EMR in what 2022/2023 for 4 reasons...

1. We need a train newer than the HST's but better than the Voyagers and the Class 222's do that.

2. More Meridians available than the 20 Voyagers from the West Coast Mainline.

3. No need to worry about too much coupling up with these (probably not making sense here).

Also some of the carriages are longer than the Voyagers.

If it was me, I'd use some of the 5-car sets to reform into 7-car sets. The 7-car sets I'd use on a some 5-car Voyager diagrams on the Manchester & Bournemouth routes and the rest to replace 5-car Voyagers on the routes to and from Scotland and the South West.

The 4 and 5-car sets I'd be tempted to use on the routes to and from Cardiff, Birmingham and Nottingham - displacing 2 and 3-car 170's for strengthening some other XC Class 170 routes including some Cardiff and Nottingham routes.

Training I know would be required if 222's replaced 170's. It wouldn't be the first time 222's have replaced 170's in their lifetime.

I'd keep the PRM'd HST's.

I'd also be keen on a few extra services - note though that 222's can't end up at Neville Hill (EMT, now EMR, told me that their Leeds services have to be formed of an HST as Neville Hill does not have the facilities to maintain the Class 222 fleet).

The following extra services would be of great use in my opinion...

1. Some Birmingham New Street terminators from the South Coast and South West to extend to Derby.

The originally planned 20:27 from Manchester to Birmingham New Street to be extended to Reading (was planned for December 2017).

The 18:35 from Manchester to Birmingham to run through to Reading - fills the gap between the 21:04 and 22:04.

Let's not forget that Meridians were built between 2003-2005 so are still modern and that some were new as 9-car sets.

Pretty Solid idea here! I was reading that when EMR take the WMR 170's they are discarding the intermediate coach on the x6 3 carriage 170s. These spare intermediate coaches could also be used to strengthen existing XC 170 formations. I have seen on many threads people saying 222's can't fit in Stansted airport, so strengthened class 170s on the Birmingham - Stansted Airport would be very helpful.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Pretty Solid idea here! I was reading that when EMR take the WMR 170's they are discarding the intermediate coach on the x6 3 carriage 170s. These spare intermediate coaches could also be used to strengthen existing XC 170 formations. I have seen on many threads people saying 222's can't fit in Stansted airport, so strengthened class 170s on the Birmingham - Stansted Airport would be very helpful.

That's a good idea regarding the intermediate WMR 170 vehicles.

I meant 18:35 from Newcastle not Manchester !

There was a scenario quite a few a Saturdays ago with XC - from looking at their Twitter that night, the 22:08 from Birmingham New Street to Derby passengers were getting (or some to Nottingham) had to have another 2-car 170 attached at Birmingham New Street onto a rammed 170.

The 22:49 was strengthened to 3 coaches.

If only that was the summer timetable, you'd have a 7-coach HST, to ease the crowding, at 22:03 from Birmingham New Street (16:30 Penzance to Leeds service).

I think Voyagers are bard from Stansted Airport as I believe the exhausts set the fire alarm off - I wouldn't like to run a 222 there as I've noticed these have a little more clagg than a Voyager. One reason I dread a 222 getting stuck in a tunnel / waiting at Birmingham New Street for a while.

 

[elliotjelliot]

That's a good idea regarding the intermediate WMR 170 vehicles.

I meant 18:35 from Newcastle not Manchester !

There was a scenario quite a few a Saturdays ago with XC - from looking at their Twitter that night, the 22:08 from Birmingham New Street to Derby passengers were getting (or some to Nottingham) had to have another 2-car 170 attached at Birmingham New Street onto a rammed 170.

The 22:49 was strengthened to 3 coaches.

If only that was the summer timetable, you'd have a 7-coach HST, to ease the crowding, at 22:03 from Birmingham New Street (16:30 Penzance to Leeds service).

I think Voyagers are bard from Stansted Airport as I believe the exhausts set the fire alarm off - I wouldn't like to run a 222 there as I've noticed these have a little more clagg than a Voyager. One reason I dread a 222 getting stuck in a tunnel / waiting at Birmingham New Street for a while.

I think 222s would perform well on the Nottingham-Cardiff service as its more of an intercity service compared to the Stansted service which is more regional/commuter orientated (Another reason why 170s are more appropriate for Stansted).

 

[Clip]

XC threads are always fun to read but they also have the same problems that XC have now - too many station calls and too many at stations that simply dont need them - always Narborough too.

The only problem with XC really, apart from the too many station calls, is the short trains they use. Its that simple.